Scale Documentation Playing The Game Well
05-23-2003, 02:30 PM
#51
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Pat,
I would have to disagree with your comments regarding the color photos taking precedence over color chips.
Fact is that color photos have way to much variation in the printing process. You can have the same negative printed three different times at the same place and the color tint will be different. It will be different for sure if you take it to a different place each time. Also different films render colors with different intensities. Lighting can change the color dramatically too (photo taken at high noon= washed out / pale colors, taken at dawn/dusk= rich bold colors). I have five photos of my Tiger Moth and each one shows the colors slightly different.
The "intent" of the photos is as you stated, outline, weathering, details, locations of markings, etc. I am sure that some judges do use the photos to "correct" the color chip but they should not be
. That is my one beef with static judging is that if a judge goes off the beaten path there is really not much you can do. Can't re-static and try to get a higher score like the flying part. Still have the opinion that the contest can be won or lost in the static with it counting for at least 50% of the score, but thats another issue.
Good idea to use the B/W photos. I assume that you then use a drawing showing the color locations? People forget that too much information my be used against you!
Jeremy
I would have to disagree with your comments regarding the color photos taking precedence over color chips.
Fact is that color photos have way to much variation in the printing process. You can have the same negative printed three different times at the same place and the color tint will be different. It will be different for sure if you take it to a different place each time. Also different films render colors with different intensities. Lighting can change the color dramatically too (photo taken at high noon= washed out / pale colors, taken at dawn/dusk= rich bold colors). I have five photos of my Tiger Moth and each one shows the colors slightly different.
The "intent" of the photos is as you stated, outline, weathering, details, locations of markings, etc. I am sure that some judges do use the photos to "correct" the color chip but they should not be
. That is my one beef with static judging is that if a judge goes off the beaten path there is really not much you can do. Can't re-static and try to get a higher score like the flying part. Still have the opinion that the contest can be won or lost in the static with it counting for at least 50% of the score, but thats another issue.Good idea to use the B/W photos. I assume that you then use a drawing showing the color locations? People forget that too much information my be used against you!
Jeremy
05-23-2003, 05:05 PM
#52
Scale Documentation Playing The Game Well
Originally posted by Wormy J
That is my one beef with static judging is that if a judge goes off the beaten path there is really not much you can do. Can't re-static and try to get a higher score like the flying part. Still have the opinion that the contest can be won or lost in the static with it counting for at least 50% of the score, but thats another issue.
That is my one beef with static judging is that if a judge goes off the beaten path there is really not much you can do. Can't re-static and try to get a higher score like the flying part. Still have the opinion that the contest can be won or lost in the static with it counting for at least 50% of the score, but thats another issue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're allowed to contest a static judge's score if you believe they scored you incorrectly.
Dan
05-23-2003, 05:57 PM
#53
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Dan,
Yes, you are correct but actually doing it is another problem.
You usually do not receive your static score until the next day after your first flight is complete. The judges rarely put enough, if any information at all as the what exactly the down grade was for. So you can see the problem, you don't have enough info on the score sheet and a day later the judge probably can't remember exactly what the down grade was for as he has just spent eight hours looking at 30 models.
I would like to thank all of the judges who do put feedback and notes down. This is a great form of feedback to improve your model or documentation, especially if you are new to scale. I know that the little feedback I got was extremely helpful (hopefully some judges are reading this and will give better feedback in the future).
I know that judging is a tough job. The judges are stretched pretty thin, and I really appreciate the great work they do, so don't misinterpret the above as a "slam" on the judges.
Jeremy
Yes, you are correct but actually doing it is another problem.
You usually do not receive your static score until the next day after your first flight is complete. The judges rarely put enough, if any information at all as the what exactly the down grade was for. So you can see the problem, you don't have enough info on the score sheet and a day later the judge probably can't remember exactly what the down grade was for as he has just spent eight hours looking at 30 models.
I would like to thank all of the judges who do put feedback and notes down. This is a great form of feedback to improve your model or documentation, especially if you are new to scale. I know that the little feedback I got was extremely helpful (hopefully some judges are reading this and will give better feedback in the future).
I know that judging is a tough job. The judges are stretched pretty thin, and I really appreciate the great work they do, so don't misinterpret the above as a "slam" on the judges.
Jeremy
05-23-2003, 08:37 PM
#54
Scale Documentation Playing The Game Well
Jeremy,
Your not disagreeing with me, the rules state what I posted and are put into practice at the contests I have been to. While there are times when a judge can excersise descretion when provoked to, the rules are the rules, like it or not.
In your post you said " Fact is that color photos have way to much variation in the printing process. You can have the same negative printed three different times at the same place and the color tint will be different. It will be different for sure if you take it to a different place each time. Also different films render colors with different intensities. Lighting can change the color dramatically too (photo taken at high noon= washed out / pale colors, taken at dawn/dusk= rich bold colors). I have five photos of my Tiger Moth and each one shows the colors slightly different."
Thats exactly right, and this is why you should exercise caution with color photos in your documentation. The judges are instructed that when there is a descrepency between two types of documentation for the same item ie; Photos and chips for color and markings, that the photos will take acendancy. Its in the rule book.
You will find that the models that score highest are the ones where the documentatiopn is completly devoid of any descrepencies, all of the material found in the book agreed completly first and foremost and then the model matches the documentation second.
Cheers,
Your not disagreeing with me, the rules state what I posted and are put into practice at the contests I have been to. While there are times when a judge can excersise descretion when provoked to, the rules are the rules, like it or not.
In your post you said " Fact is that color photos have way to much variation in the printing process. You can have the same negative printed three different times at the same place and the color tint will be different. It will be different for sure if you take it to a different place each time. Also different films render colors with different intensities. Lighting can change the color dramatically too (photo taken at high noon= washed out / pale colors, taken at dawn/dusk= rich bold colors). I have five photos of my Tiger Moth and each one shows the colors slightly different."
Thats exactly right, and this is why you should exercise caution with color photos in your documentation. The judges are instructed that when there is a descrepency between two types of documentation for the same item ie; Photos and chips for color and markings, that the photos will take acendancy. Its in the rule book.
You will find that the models that score highest are the ones where the documentatiopn is completly devoid of any descrepencies, all of the material found in the book agreed completly first and foremost and then the model matches the documentation second.
Cheers,
05-23-2003, 08:43 PM
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Guys, I've got a question regarding Navy colors. My SBD-5 uses the tri-color scheme of 1944 (Sea Blue, Intermediate Blue and Insignia White). I just got my Frank Tiano color chip book yesterday and it doesn't have Insignia White! You'd think that for $38 you'd get all the standard colors, I'm a little miffed about that.
How do I know what Insignia White looks like (described as off-white in other documents I got from a Navy Museum)? And, how do I document it for competition when my color chip book doesn't have it in there?
Neo
How do I know what Insignia White looks like (described as off-white in other documents I got from a Navy Museum)? And, how do I document it for competition when my color chip book doesn't have it in there?
Neo
05-23-2003, 09:21 PM
#56
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Playing the Game
Shame on Frankie!!.... lol.... you want FS 37875... thats the Federal standard color for Insignia white.. Go to any plastic model store and buy some Model Masters or similar paint that has that FS number on it. You'll have what you need then.. hope this helps Regards BobH.
05-24-2003, 12:34 AM
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Bob,
Thanks, that will get me on track. It won't make for a very "complete" color documentation package though. ;-(
Ya know, another thing that really has me confused is these crazy Fed Std "blues" of the WW2 USN... Why in the world do they call them blues, they're grey if I ever saw it?
The specular sea blue is almost black, and the intermediate blue looks like charcoal gray. Yet every restored SBD that I see, and the majority of the RC models using this paint scheme, all use much more vibrant/colorful blues. What's up with that?
I mean, if I were going to spend years and tens of thousands of dollars to restore a full-scale SBD, I think I'd want to match the FS colors. Or, are the FS color chips a "hoax" and they actually did paint the SBD's in "true blues" rather than the grays of the FS chips? I also have a few color "historical" photos of planes (in books) using this scheme during WW2, and they look pretty darn blue to me... not charcoal gray.
Neo
Thanks, that will get me on track. It won't make for a very "complete" color documentation package though. ;-(
Ya know, another thing that really has me confused is these crazy Fed Std "blues" of the WW2 USN... Why in the world do they call them blues, they're grey if I ever saw it?
The specular sea blue is almost black, and the intermediate blue looks like charcoal gray. Yet every restored SBD that I see, and the majority of the RC models using this paint scheme, all use much more vibrant/colorful blues. What's up with that?
I mean, if I were going to spend years and tens of thousands of dollars to restore a full-scale SBD, I think I'd want to match the FS colors. Or, are the FS color chips a "hoax" and they actually did paint the SBD's in "true blues" rather than the grays of the FS chips? I also have a few color "historical" photos of planes (in books) using this scheme during WW2, and they look pretty darn blue to me... not charcoal gray.
Neo
05-24-2003, 12:39 AM
#58
restorers
Neo you will find out that most of these restorers aint got a clue as to the colors of the original plane. they paint them the way they want. Myself and i can safley speak for most scale gurus here have noticed long ago terrible flaws of most of the restored paint schemes. I have seen some planes in say a desert camo scheme with the noseart and other stuff of some aces personal plane when in fact that persons plane never had a desert camo scheme and may have been in the russian front only. these guys paint their restorations in the color scheme they like and very few use accurate schemes.
Joe
Joe
05-25-2003, 01:59 AM
#59
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Thanks prof, that's amazing that someone would go to that much work and have an "incorrect" warbird when done! But then again, as you said, they would have it the way "they" want it.
Back to my case of the "blues" ;-( ........
Do you see my point regarding the desparity between blues in navy schemes, and specifically, why they would call black & gray "sea blue and intermediate blue"???
I mean come on now... they are not "blue" by any means. They're shades of gray. Maybe "sea gray and intermediate gray" would be more appropriate names?
Neo
Back to my case of the "blues" ;-( ........
Do you see my point regarding the desparity between blues in navy schemes, and specifically, why they would call black & gray "sea blue and intermediate blue"???
I mean come on now... they are not "blue" by any means. They're shades of gray. Maybe "sea gray and intermediate gray" would be more appropriate names?
Neo
05-25-2003, 02:04 AM
#60
blues
yes but most of the colors were stated by what the major piment was in the color. the best thing to do is to get the FS numbers for that plane and use coresponding color chips to the fs number and make your ref pics black and white. Myself I just find what the FS number is and call nelsons hobby up give him the fs number and forget abt it. A majority of the big time competetors use him and trust him so why not me. besides he has all the mixing info for the fs numbers rlm numbers etc all in some paint mixing program.
Joe
Joe
05-25-2003, 02:37 AM
#61
Thread Starter
FS & AN numbers determine color, gloss, tint
Why not do what is supposed to be done. simply use color chips corresponding to easily identified AN & FS numbers for the period and region. Use a color computer to mix your paints...regardless of type and brand.
There are so many ways to find the original colors assigned by the government agencies at the time of use...be it WWI, WWII or other period.
ScaleAero's Doc-U-Link has all the cross indexes you will ever need. The IPMS and several internationally recognized cross references for multiple brands of paint.
There are so many ways to find the original colors assigned by the government agencies at the time of use...be it WWI, WWII or other period.
ScaleAero's Doc-U-Link has all the cross indexes you will ever need. The IPMS and several internationally recognized cross references for multiple brands of paint.
05-25-2003, 03:05 PM
#62
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All the IPMS docs, Nelson Hobby Paints, Frank Tiano Color Chips, and Model Masters FS paints seem to be in agreement as to what these two "blues" look like... which as I said, is gray and dark gray.
The USN official description of these 2 colors is...
-----
FS35042
Non-Spec Sea Blue:
(Mediteraranean Blue)
2 parts deep no. 15 blue, 1 part medium gray
FS35164
Intermediate Blue:
(Powdery blue/gray)
1 part light gray, 1/2 part deep blue, 1/2 part white
-----
I guess that this "deep blue" that they use in both mixes is not even close to being blue. It must be a dark "cool gray" and they call it deep blue.
I feel safe using these colors now as far as accuracy goes. Ya just gotta wonder why the overwhelming majority of both restorers and modelers (except IPMS) have chosen to use such vibrant blues on their planes?
Thanks for the help,
Neo
The USN official description of these 2 colors is...
-----
FS35042
Non-Spec Sea Blue:
(Mediteraranean Blue)
2 parts deep no. 15 blue, 1 part medium gray
FS35164
Intermediate Blue:
(Powdery blue/gray)
1 part light gray, 1/2 part deep blue, 1/2 part white
-----
I guess that this "deep blue" that they use in both mixes is not even close to being blue. It must be a dark "cool gray" and they call it deep blue.
I feel safe using these colors now as far as accuracy goes. Ya just gotta wonder why the overwhelming majority of both restorers and modelers (except IPMS) have chosen to use such vibrant blues on their planes?
Thanks for the help,
Neo
05-25-2003, 08:13 PM
#63
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Proff, how do you like Nelson's paints? I have heard from people who swear by them and people who swear at them.. Just wondering how u liked them.
Neo.. you would be amazed at what aircraft restorers do to expesive planes.. for example.. lots of Mustangs and other aluminum covered planes are painted now with silver metal flake paint to help with the maintenance..
Museums try (for the most part) to be accurate but even they make errors. One reason for that is that sometimes new historic documents come to light that change the traditional way of looking at a subject. Not to mention that the Aircraft Mfgs.. did NOT all have the same paint. The US Military specified the paint types but... the Mfgs were responsible for following the specs. Its easy to see that there was variation within any given paint type depending on the supplier.
The FS (Federal Standard) numbers is an attempt to standardize colors across all paint suppliers. The colors are not always EXACTLY the colors used in the past.. particullary when looking at colors before WWII.. What you end up with is an equivialant color.. but not an exact match. And there is disagreement about what the EXACT color was..
I know the color subject is truely a "grey area'' ( pun intended lol).. but thats the way it is... BTW you can order the entire FS Booklet from either GSA.. or The AF Museum gift shop.. It helps lots to have it..... Regards BobH.
Neo.. you would be amazed at what aircraft restorers do to expesive planes.. for example.. lots of Mustangs and other aluminum covered planes are painted now with silver metal flake paint to help with the maintenance..
Museums try (for the most part) to be accurate but even they make errors. One reason for that is that sometimes new historic documents come to light that change the traditional way of looking at a subject. Not to mention that the Aircraft Mfgs.. did NOT all have the same paint. The US Military specified the paint types but... the Mfgs were responsible for following the specs. Its easy to see that there was variation within any given paint type depending on the supplier.
The FS (Federal Standard) numbers is an attempt to standardize colors across all paint suppliers. The colors are not always EXACTLY the colors used in the past.. particullary when looking at colors before WWII.. What you end up with is an equivialant color.. but not an exact match. And there is disagreement about what the EXACT color was..
I know the color subject is truely a "grey area'' ( pun intended lol).. but thats the way it is... BTW you can order the entire FS Booklet from either GSA.. or The AF Museum gift shop.. It helps lots to have it..... Regards BobH.
05-25-2003, 08:25 PM
#64
Nelsons
Bob I swear BY them. Those that swear at them you will find are the ones that cant follow directions. Usually when I do it i get my primer and everything through them using all their stuff they arent that expensive. the guys I have heard from that have problems are not prepping for their color coat properly or using incompatable primer trying to save what amounts to 5 bucks. also i spent a good hour on the phone with him the first time asking all abt his paints and using them and do's and dont's and he was more than happy to give me the low down on how to use them and what not to use under or over them. he has a 1800 number and is more than happy to BS for as long as it takes for you to fully understand how to sucessfully use his product which isnt hard just general knowledge like dont use a laquer primer underneath or an oil based primer as his is a mechanical bond paint. and he knows his paints and will go into the technical end and chemistry of paints and painting for all kinds of different paints not just his. thats why so many of us use his stuff. yea it costs 20 bucks for a pint of paint on avg and you can get that for half the price at walmart but the extra you paying for is the human knowledge, the exact paint match to fs codes, the cross linker that comes with the paints for nitro fuel and the fact you are helping a fellow modellers business. I dont get that kind of support from my LHS he gets all my business. also not sure how much paint you will need for your plane? just tell him what plane you are doing and he will tell you how much paint you need and he is very accurate. I did a top flight DC3 in AC-47 colors and he told me exactly how much paint i needed and i had less than an oz of each left over except for the off colors i needed for insignias because had to get a min of a 1/2 pint size.
Joe
Joe
05-25-2003, 10:21 PM
#65
Scale Documentation Playing The Game Well
If you look at the full scale restorations coming out lately you will find that the owners are going to great lenghs at authenticity. There have been a few recently that even had the origional artist do the noseart. There are a lot of inacurate shemes out there but if you can get ahold of the owner you can get the color #s that were used on the restoration so you can do a model of the restored airplane. I'm doing my Spitfire as a restored MKIX as I was looking for one with the tall rudder(Prof there's that ugly rudder again) and invasion stripes and that one fit the bill. I have been in contact with the shop that did the paint and they have been great at supplying all the info I need. It is also in pristine condition with a glossy paint job so will be easy and simple to do.
Now back to the full scale. A lot off Mustangs etc are painted with aluminium color paint. This is because if you don't have a full time guy polishing it it soon looks terrible. Also a lot of these airplanes have less than perfect sheetmetal on them and it is too expensive to replace but very airworthy. Also a lot of people with enough money to restore a warbird are a little eccentric. You gotta be as owning one of these beasts is a constant headache. Average Mustang takes 4hrs of maintanance for every flying hour. Helped get a P-47 ready to fly last week and it took two days with 4 people working on it. So even if they are inacurate as far as color at least there are still some out there that we can enjoy seeing fly. Don
Now back to the full scale. A lot off Mustangs etc are painted with aluminium color paint. This is because if you don't have a full time guy polishing it it soon looks terrible. Also a lot of these airplanes have less than perfect sheetmetal on them and it is too expensive to replace but very airworthy. Also a lot of people with enough money to restore a warbird are a little eccentric. You gotta be as owning one of these beasts is a constant headache. Average Mustang takes 4hrs of maintanance for every flying hour. Helped get a P-47 ready to fly last week and it took two days with 4 people working on it. So even if they are inacurate as far as color at least there are still some out there that we can enjoy seeing fly. Don
05-25-2003, 11:01 PM
#66
EWWWWWWWW
EWWWWWWWW that fugly tall tail yuck. hey pitts i got an ist panel for the mk ix on my website its 1/3.5 scale but you can rescale it easy and its accurate with guages and all
Joe
Joe
05-26-2003, 02:44 AM
#68
My Feedback: (2)
playing the game
Thanks Proof.. I talked to him at length a little while ago and your right. he will take plenty of time with you and answer all your questions..
Pittsdriver...Ya know. I dont mind guys who have the full scale planes painting them to their liking. lol..As a matter of fact one of my Favorite mustangs (six shooter) was owend by Rick Korf who simply fancied that scheme.. There was no basis for it in history... Regards BobH.
Pittsdriver...Ya know. I dont mind guys who have the full scale planes painting them to their liking. lol..As a matter of fact one of my Favorite mustangs (six shooter) was owend by Rick Korf who simply fancied that scheme.. There was no basis for it in history... Regards BobH.
