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AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

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AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Old 05-20-2009, 04:30 PM
  #826  
germrb
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Lonnie, John,

Duh!! Of course. The older I get the slower my brain works. At this rate, it will be running backwards shortly.
Old 05-20-2009, 04:33 PM
  #827  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build



Know where you are coming from. I fight this daily. I am convinced I have only 2 brain cells left and they are saying goodbye to each other.

Old 05-24-2009, 09:10 PM
  #828  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build



Here are some photos from yesterday's flyin of my Pepino Waco YMF-5.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_39...tm.htm#8795608

post 1412

Old 05-27-2009, 09:28 PM
  #829  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

well i am wating on sum new pictures BJ
Old 06-01-2009, 07:51 AM
  #830  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

I have been making slow progress this last week. Had a fly-in last weekend to work and this last week been trying to play catch up on the honey do list. Ido not have any pictures to post because it would be pretty much a repeat of what has already been posted by Anthony. I am working on the balsa covers for the cabane struts. As I was working on this and started fitting the pieces together I realized the the mounting brackets on the front of the top cabane are to close together. According the instructions these are separated by a 3/16 inch piece of plywood filler blocks. So I had to tare this appart and try again. Iadded a piece of 1/4 inch plywood to the 3/16 to get more separation. So far this looks and works better. These will be housing the Wing Tip Light wiring and the servo wires. I'm working very carefully on this and that is why the progress is very slow. Here is a picture of how Ihope it will look when finished. You will notice the metal pieces in the front and rear to the struts at the wing attachment points and the ones where they attach to fuselage. I will be trying to duplicate this using thin alum sheeting. As soon as Iget something worth showing Iwill post pictures.
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Old 06-06-2009, 07:26 AM
  #831  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

 Still here and alive,
   I am unfortunately still having to work every day. I figured this mess at work would be behind me by now but it's not. If nothing else I am going to take some vacation time in the not so distant future and I will make some time for the Waco then. It really bugs me to walk past my hobby room and see the Waco sitting there waiting to be completed.  One thing for sure I don't want to rush it and do a sloppy job.
 Later!!
 Anthony
Old 06-06-2009, 08:41 AM
  #832  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

I "remaidened" my 30% yeaterday after doing all the work required after my botched deadstick incident at TopGun. Damned if the first 5 maneuvers I got through
weren't tens!!!Anyway...while I was doing the work I pulled apart the empennage (a fancy French word for tail feathers) and kicked up the forward stab tube 3/16ths.
It STILL wasn't enough to keep me fromneeding about 1/4" of down trim. So ladies and gentlemen.....make sure that you've raised the front stab tube....I'm thinking 1/4" should be about right.
The reason for my incident I believe is that the pressure pulse tube on the 215 radial got blocked up due to crankcase grease migrating past the pulse piston. From now on I'll be sure to check it before each days flying. Mitch
Old 06-06-2009, 09:32 AM
  #833  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Mitch,

Sorry to hear of your misfortune at Top Gun. I did enjoy the photos that Bill posted on RCR Online. Very nice work.

I have an older RCS250 that experienced a similar problem with the pressure pulse tube becoming fouled. Mine didn't dead stick, but the lack of oil circulation causes over heating. Something to be very careful about. I have had to replace the internal ignition ring because of heat damage and that wasn't cheap. If your engine doesn't have a clear tube, get Mike Dooley (Troy Built Models) to get you a replacement so you can inspect it routinely.

I agree with your stab adjustment analysis. I have at least a half inch of down trim in mine. My guess is that the horizontal stab incidence should be at least 3 degrees positive.

By the way, my "remaiden" flight this year was in front of a large crowd and Iproceeded to ground loop it on takeoff. It cost me $100 for a prop and a lot of embarassment. Iwouldn't have the nerves to fly at Top Gun.

Anthony,

Glad to hear that your still with us. Remember, its the journey, not the destination that's important.

My AMRracer is making progress. Just waiting for graphics, then clear coat.

Later all,
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:59 AM
  #834  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Hey Mitch

Ito am sorry for you misfortune at Top Gun. I think Iremember you saying that you did the same thing I'm doing on the elevators and that you had them joined at the center with a dowel. Could you post some pictures of that when you get the chance. Iwould really appreciate it.

Anthony
Glad your still around. Sorry about all the work that is keeping you from your WACO. I have a similar problem. It is called a honey do list and builders block. For me builders block is where even the most simple task becomes a major undertaking because I keep messing it up. Hope to get my groove back soon and hope you find the time to get back to your WACO. I know there are a lot of us out here that are watching with great interest.
Old 06-08-2009, 08:00 AM
  #835  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

I may be preaching to the choir here, but as to the horizontal stab incidence setting, first check your C/G.  Pay no attention to what the kit manufacturer had to say concerning this.  I've been doing some checking, and judging from where most of the manufacturers have you set the C/G, they are too far rearward.  Check the MAC measurement, and then set the C/G at about 25% of that.  You may find that you need a lot less down trim.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Old 06-08-2009, 10:48 AM
  #836  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Bill,

As usual, you are absolutely right about the manufacturer's recomended CG. I have move my balance about 1.5" forward, which has improved the flight performance. I'm still testing.

On a more general note, it is my understanding that the ground ajustable horizontal stab on a full size YMF was incorporated to compensate from the shift in CG brought on by a second passenger or shift in cargo. If your flying full size, how do you know where to set the stab? I can't believe that its a guess. Do you have to recalculate the weight/balance? Also, Ihave to assume that the same logic must apply to a model.

There would seem to be a trade off between flght performance (ie. aerodynamic stability) and drag efficiency. If you actually move the CG it would affect performance and changing the stab would effect drag. I'm sure there is probably some effect on both. On my 33%, shifting the CG forward has increased the aerodynamic stability, particularly on low speed landing approaches. It has reduced the tendency for the tail to drop allowing nice maingear touch downs. However, I'm sure I could never get the plane to snap roll, even withoutthe change.

So Mitch, pay attention to the Master Chief's advice.

Later,
Old 06-08-2009, 10:59 AM
  #837  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

I've done both Bill, I set my balance point exactly the way you say to measure it...did that before the first flight although I went with 33%. I felt it was safe and not all that far away from the 25% you suggest. Another factor is that my 50 oz fuel load is a bit ahead of the CG and my setting was done with a dry tank of course. I realize that the CG will move a bit rearward as the tank empties but i never use more than 1/2 tank during a 12 to 15 minute flight. An educated guess says that I take off with about a 28% CG and land with 30%. These numbers are all safely in the ball park.
The Genesis/AMR stab incidence setting becomes the guilty party as far as I'm concerned in my case.Three degrees posititve seems to be what it needs.
I'll be very interested to find what your measurements are once you determine the stab incidence with your variable setup. Mitch
Old 06-08-2009, 11:00 PM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Bob,

P1 - On 1987 YMF Classic NC 14081 the horizontal stab is adjustable from the pilots seat and the front seat with a crank that looks like a window crank. It is even placarded with with direction to move the crank for "nose up" or "nose down". No calculations to figure for a passenger, just crank in the trim you need.

Other Wacos also have a crank, some times on the left side, sometimes on the right, or in the case of the cabin models, in the ceiling.

The only ground adjustable part of the flying surfaces I believe is the rudder trim tab. On the YMF it is an inset balsa wood tab that is locked with a nut and bolt. Some do not have a tab while other Wacos have a sheet metal tab that is bent for adjustment. These sheet metal tabs vary in size from looking like part of the rudder to an obvious rectangulish "TAB".

Fin offset is sometime also adjustable by removing washers from one side and inserting them on the other side. Most of the time the fin offset is built in during construction of the fuselage.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:04 AM
  #839  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build



John,

Thank you for the information. That makes a lot more sense.

If I were to incorporate a flight adjustable stab on a model, I would search for a way to minimize the servo load. Otherwise, the constant pressure on the servo would eat up power. Particularly if one were to use digitals.

Thanks again, you're always a weath of great information.

Old 06-09-2009, 10:33 AM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Bob,

The full size use a jack screw as seen in P1. This is a cabin model so the cables are angling up to the crank in the ceiling. P2 is the underside of the jack screw. The stabilizer is attached to the flanges seen in P1 as shown in P3.

Bill has used a lever/bellcrank arraignment for his adjustable stab.

Another possibility is to use a winch used for model sailboats as they are designed for continuous loads. They have 5 to 9.6 turns from end to end. A 5 turn type should be enough by adjusting the diameter of the pulleys to give the required number of rotations needed to adjust the stab. RMG is one maker of these winches. They are powerful enough to haul in a 600 sq. in. sail plus the jib in heavy winds and can operate on 4.8 to 7.2 volts with no problem. They are made I belive in Austraila, are a bit expensive but the exchange rate is favorable. One thing to note is that some of the older RMG winches can not be used with the Spectrum type radios, the newer models can. One source for the RMG winch is Midwest Model Yachting http://www.midwestmodelyachting.com/...nches/rmg.html . There are other brands out there, but RMG seems to be the winch of choice for the sailors.
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:01 AM
  #841  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

 When flying a full scale J-3 I set the trim once at altitude and speed was established you just adjust the trim until all pressure from the stick was removed. This makes it much easier on the arms for sure. Another nice thing was the plane trimmed up for level flight at 1,800 rpm, 60mph indicated in level flight. When you reduce the power the plane would drop the nose and start a 60mph decent, the more you dropped the RPM the steeper the decent. Once the plane was trimmed for level flight at 60mph it tries to maintain that speed. Add power and climb reduce power and decend. 
  It would be very hard to get a perfect blance on our models as far as a trim setting on an adjustable stab.
 Anthony
Old 06-10-2009, 10:33 AM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Since there is not a pre-loaded force on the horizontal stab like there would be on a control surface, I computed the load, and found it to be a non issue.  The digital servo will hold it without adding an appreciable amount of load to the battery.  It takes less power to move the stab to a new location than it does to set the trim on the elevator.  Once there, the load can be measured, but you have to have a digital meter to be able to see it.  I used the old tried and true method of trying to overcome the setting once in position, and the model will never exert that much force on the servo.  It may not be technically repeatable, but It's close enough.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Old 06-14-2009, 05:37 PM
  #843  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Just a quick note that our jet powered Waco has now been successfully flown at the XFC competition in Muncie. Terry  (my son) is having a blast flying it. We did move the CG forward from recommended a bit (about 1/4"), he's happy with that. The tail incidence remains stock for now, although some changes there would probably make the plane a bit happier. Not  big deal for Terry, the kid can fly 'bout anything anyway. Flying Giants website has some really nice photos including flight shots. Hopefully we'll have some video soon.
Thanks again to all of you posting on this thread, it was very helpful to me during the build for sure.
Joe
Old 06-15-2009, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Lonnie, Sorry for not posting pics of the elevators yet. I've been very busy with family stuff. Also, in order to take decent shots I have to dismantle the back end. Hoping you can wait 'til after the Scalemasters qualifier at the end of this month. Mitch
Old 06-15-2009, 07:02 AM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Hey Mitch

No problem. As you know I will not run out of other things to do on the WACO
Old 06-15-2009, 06:42 PM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Well thought I should post something so that it does not look like Ihave totally given up. Ihave finished sheeting the top cabane. Ihave the wiring for the servos and wing tip lights in place as you will see from the photos
1) Top of the Cabane
2) Bottom of the Cabane where everything is happening. You can see the wiring and the center struts and how they look mounted internally
3) Front bracket with he wing tip wiring. These had the 1/4 inch block added to increase the separation
4) Rear bracket with servo wiring and the additional bracked added
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:47 PM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

I'm sure someone might ask what the circles are behind the front bracket and in front of the rear bracket. These are holes I put into the skin and backed it with 1/8 balsa sheet to attach the fuel line fittings. This should give it some depth instead of just glueing to the skin. Now to fiberglass this baby.
Old 06-15-2009, 08:04 PM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

I was able to grab a couple of shots showing my elevator hinges andelevator servo mounting. Hope these help. As far as the elevator joiner goes it's pretty simple. The spar is an aluminum tube joined with a hardwood dowel. It passes through bearings in the fin and has a horn on one side of the fin made from a 10-32 bolt. Two screws on either side of the fin lock the elevator halves together. Mitch
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:07 PM
  #849  
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Here's how I made the hinges. Mitch
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:54 AM
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Default RE: AMR 33% Waco YMF-5 Build

Hey Mitch

Really looks good. Hope mine turns out that nice. The pictures and explaination help a lot. Thanks very much

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