Chevelle

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And so it begins....

I was going to do this in the scratch building section but it looks build threads generally don't go there so I'll do this here. The subject is a 1910 Glenn Curtiss Hudson Flier, sometimes referred to as the "Albany Flier". There is a "1910 Hudson Flier Prolog" in the scratch section so I won't duplicate it here but in summary, the original plane was designed and built to claim a long distance flight prize by flying from Albany to New York City. On May 29, 1910, it did just that flying the incredible distance for the day of 150 miles.

Ifound out about the plane while visiting the Curtiss museum in Hammondsport two years ago. They hoped to build a replica and re-enact that flight next year on the 100th anniversary. Skipping the details provided in the prolog, I did the 3D CAD design of the full scale that is now under construction. I have also generated a 1/4 scale version of the design that Iam now working on.

Part 1 - Framing the Wing Sections

As you can see, the whole thing is sticks, covering and wire. No fuselage to speak of. The wings are typical of the day, undercambered and very thin. (Full scale, 1 inch!) The wings are not one piece but sections held together with brackets.

My initial concern was how to make it strong and easily constructed. Either the spars had to be one piece and the ribs separate pieces or vise versa. I built a prototype section where the spars were separate pieces between intact ribs like the full scale. OK for a static plane but I felt to risky and difficult to assemble straight for a flying model. I ended up designing the ribs with material above and below where the spars went through. That way I could slide the spars through, glue them all up and then take the extra material away.

The concept was sound but what really made it pay off was working with an excellent laser cutter. I called several but used Laser Technologies. Dan could take my CAD drawings directly which helped us both. Dan was excellent to work with and delivered everything as promised. I will indeed go back to him for my future laser cutting needs.

So, the eventual construction was uneventful. I could easily do two sections in an evening. I laid out the ribs and slid in the spars. Pinning the right and left balsa ribs was all that was required. The snug fit of the rest of the ribs held them right were they needed to be. Thin CA was applied. Next came the gussets made from angled balsa and glued into place. Then the cross bracing trimmed from stick stock and glued into place. Full size one piece basswood ribs were glued to the ends for a clean strong finish. Thick CA was added to the joints.

After all the gluing had set, the section was taken off the table and the extra rib material snapped off as planned. After sanding, the nubs will be goneand the cross bracing will conform to the wing shape.

Ilove it when a plan comes together. See you next time!

Thrushdust

What will the wingspan be and what type of power will you be using? This will be a flying model right?
DH

Chevelle

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The wingspan will be just under 8 feet.  There are several candidates for power.  My least favorite is electric although that would be the easiest to use and would not challenge the spindly mounting.  I have considered the RCV 90 motor.  I am concerned about the torque pulse.  I have a design for a vibration isolation mount that I will try out.  Otherwise a 100-size glow twin.

Thrushdust

You may want to look at the OS inline four cylinder that you could angle to one side as a power plant, then you could dummy up and hide equipment in the other side . Another possibility  would be one of the Laser "V twins" that may lend itself to blending into a reasonable facsimile of the original V8.
Very interesting build, Good luck!

D. Hayes

Chevelle

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A Teaser...

When I started this build thread I figured that I would follow the normal build progression, i.e. wings first. In actuality, that is not the way the plane has come together. First thing Idid was to build up just two prototype wing sections to see what form of construction I wanted to follow. (See the beginning posts.) Once I figured that out, Idetailed the design for that approach and then went out for laser cutting. In the mean time, I started working on the undercarriage. I had never worked in brass before so at first, Imade three parts for every one that was a keeper! (Now I'm down to about 1-1/2 for every good one of the more complicated parts.) Iwill put up posts on the undercarriage parts at a later time but Ijust though you would like to see how this is coming together.

The covered wing panels are the prototypes but the framed ones are for real. (I have a lot more wing panels than just the those shown in the pictures.) The struts are just dowels for now. The seat is a prototype but Ido have the real one made. The seat cradle is the real deal and moveable. That is used for aileron control! The cradle and pilot will move side to side when the ailerons move. The steering yoke and wheel are prototypes. The rudder moves when the wheel turns and the yoke moves back and forth when the elevators move. Everything will articulate on the model.

Enjoy.

abufletcher

Brilliant! I love seeing these "flyers" from a time before people knew what airplanes were supposed to look like!

Chevelle

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Try this on for size. I have put up a file that is viewable through your browser. You can zoom in, out, spin the model as well as turn stuff on and off. I know this works for Internet Explorer. I'm not sure what is involved to get it to work with FireFox. You may need to download a plug in from www.eDrawings.com

Chevelle's Hudson Flier Model

Once you get it running, it is a preference thing but I recommend that you close out the "tree" on the left (click the "<<") and change to buttons to small size.

Enjoy.

abufletcher

Can't get this to work on my Mac in either Explorer or Foxfilre. The eDrawing download for the Mac seems to have some problems. I'm not really surprised. CAD and Mac don't seem to play well together.

Chevelle

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Part 2 - More Wing Panels and Preping for Covering

I have been able to spend a reasonable amount of time on the Hudson Flier and all of it on the wings. An eight foot wingspan is one thing on paper and quite another when you see it on the bench, especially when this model doesn't lend itself to convenient assembly and disassembly in the field like others with bolt on wings.

Anyway, I was pleased with the assembly process. It all went together in a pretty straight forward way. I believe that Imade the right choices with materials too. Spruce for the LE, TE and spars and basswood for the end ribs. The rest of the ribs are balsa. All the thicknesses feel appropriate too. Not a difficult procedure to build undercambered wings.

The transition from rough wings to being ready for covering was tedious but not hard. The spar guide tabs in the ribs snapped off pretty cleanly, especially when care was used to apply the CA so that the bits above and below the spars were not glued to the spar. I first used the Dremel and sanding wheel to sand down the cross bracing rougly to the contour of the wing. I needed to use the cable extension for the Dremel to get further from the edge of the wing. Then I went over it all lightly with 100 grit sand paper on a padded holder to contour it closer to the final shape. I didn't use a sanding bar here because I wanted the curved shape of the padded holder. Next I went over the top with 150-200 grit paper with the sanding bar to get the final shape. The underside had to be done without the bar.

So that's it for this installment. I'll coat the ribs and edges with Stix-It and then start the covering process using SolarTex natural.

Chevelle

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Part 3 - Covering

After all the sanding, all the edges were covered in Stix-It. Ifelt that this was most important because of the undercambered wing. The last thing I wanted was to go through all this trouble only to have the covering pop off from the underside of the ribs.

For covering, Ichose SolarTex natual (no pigment). I have used SolarTex before and love it (except for the price). It is easy to work with. I will be brush painting the covering to give it a slightly imperfect and faded look. Not too much weathering though. There is no indication that the plane existed more than a year or so. This was common back then. Planes ended up "recycled" and absorbed into the next project of the designer, assuming they weren't destroyed in a wreck. (Curtiss planes were very stable and strong.They had an excellent safety record, remarkable for those days.)

Covering was pretty straight forward, maybe even easy. It helped that the wings are panels and therefore of manageable size. (The AVROTriplane I want to do is another matter all together!)

Ifirst covered the underside. Itacked the leading edge first using low heat. I wanted the covering to stick, not shrink. Usually one would do the trailing edge next but not in this case. Instead Iran the iron slowly down the ribs, again with low heat to stick the covering, not shrink it. Istarted with the ribs in the interior of the wing and worked my way out to the edge. When the ribs were tacked, I then did the trailing edge. After putting in some cuts in the covering that ran past the side edge of the rib where it curved, it was an easy task to seal the covering to the edge of the panel using higher heat go get just a little bit of shrink. As a last step on the underside of the wing, Iran a very thin line of thin CA along where the covering touched the ribs. This should ensure that the covering never pops off.

Without shrinking the underside, I covered the top side. This gave the CAand the covering adhesive a good chance to set. The top side was a breeze to cover since the surface is curved in only one dimension. Itacked down only the edges and not the ribs. When the panel was covered on both sides, Iused the heat gun to shrink the top first and then the bottom. I am inclined to put just enough heat on the covering to take out the ripples, not shrink it as tight as a drum. No need to put that sort of stress on any structure, even if it is beefier than an eight foot wing that is just 1/4 inch thick!

The five panels of the bottom wing are done with the seven panels of the top left to go. After that, the next step will be adding the rib stiching.

See ya...

Chevelle

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The Engine Dilemma..

I have been struggling with engine choices. Of course, the ideal pick from a visual and sound perspective would be an OS IL300. Oh that sound! But at 3.0 cu-in, that is a monster of an engine for this plane. Without the engine, covering, rigging and turn buckles, the plane calculates out at 5-1/2 pounds. Add 1-1/2 for the covering and 1/2 for the rigging and turn buckles and we get a whopping 7-1/2 lbs. That IL300 is five pounds. As good as it would look and sound, I think it is not an option.

I am very interested in a multi-cylinder because of the lower vibration. So I think my choices are:

Saito 60 Twin
Saito 90 Twin
Saito 100 Twin
Laser 160 V-Twin

The Laser is interesting because it sort of fits the look of the first two cylinders in the OX5 V8 which is as close to what the original had as you can get. Even so, Ithink that at 1.6 cu-in, it is far too big. I think the ideal motor is in the range of 60-90. I have never had a twin before but from what I understand, you get less omph from them compared to a single cylinder motor of the same size. Given that the Saitos are 4-stroke, that also has to be taken into consideration. For that reason, my gut says go with the Saito 90.

A fellow club member that is waaayyy into engines offered another suggestion. He has a Ross 60 Twin (2 stroke). Maybe that will work.

As I always do when I don't know which option I want to take, I model 'em all up. I hope that by the time I get them modeled, the answer will be staring me in the face. So Jim lent me the Ross 60 and Carl lent me his Saito 90 and off I went at modeling. I've only done the Ross so far. It came out nicely I think. It fits very easily between the engine rails too. A simple set of stand offs and a plate that would attach to the rails is all that would be needed. The Ross is unique in that it has mounting posts on both sides. A custom exhaust will have to be made but Iam assuming that will be necessary for whatever motor I pick.

The Saito 90 Twin is next.

Chevelle

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Well it has been a LOOOooonnnng time since Ihave posted but progress does continue, on both the full scale and my model. All the wing panels are build, covered, have rib stitching added, and painted. A satin urethane has yet to be applied. The interplane wing struts are cut and sanded. Finishing sanding is next, then staining and urethane. Here are some pictures. (Can you tell which is the full scale )

Someday, if Iever get to slow down, I would like to start a modest model company. To that end, I have been fiddling around with a website. The link is:

www.vintageaerocraft.com

I can't promise a lot of activity but the site does have a webcamera setup in my building area. Since Iwill be home for the next two weeks, I hope to be working on the Hudson Flier more. Stop by and take a look.

John Cole

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Bob, the Flyer is looking great!!

John

ARUP

I built a sport model of a Curtiss Headless Pusher and flew it with an OS26fs. The mainplanes were 48" span!. That's alot of wing area! Plenty of power, very draggy and never a problem with torgue pulses affecting motor mounts. Motor mounts were maple rails epoxied to four upright struts in the form of 1/4 dowell (like I said it was sport scale) which were capped on the opposite side with balsa to encircle the dowells. With all the strut bracing you are installing you shouldn't have any problems. Most airplanes are overbuilt.

Chevelle

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ARUP,

Well, doing a quick calc, if my wingspan is twice yours, then the plane should be four times as heavy with the motor scaling up as well. That would put my project in the 91FS range which is where my head has been at lately. I think I will mock up a engine mount setup and give that a test.

Chevelle

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Fast forward six months. A LOThas happened.

First of all, the full scale plane was completed and has flown. Here is a YouTube Link: www.youtube.com/watch

As for my model, well it is almost complete. There is some bracing still to do and some detail work but it is almost fliable. I hope to get it in the air in August and take it to Rhinebeck in September.

It weighs just less than 12lbs. 96" wingspan. The receiver, rudder and elevator servo are in the seat. The aileron servo is attached to the pilot seat cradle. The ailerons on this plane (not yet installed) work when the pilot leans from side to side. The servo attached to the cradle pulls on a stationary post causing the cradle to move and therefore work the ailerons. The elevator servo moves the yoke which moves the front cannard. The receiver battery is hidden in the radiator. The throttle servo is under the fuel tank. Yes, the fuel tank is copper and functional. There is a false bottom for the throttle servo so the capacity isn't quite a large as it looks in the pictures.

Happy Landings.

ARUP

Thanks for Youtube link. Can't wait to see yours fly!

abufletcher

That's some really amazing work! [sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Chevelle

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Well flying is getting ever closer! The plane was partially broken down so I could get it up from the basement and then reassembled in the garage. Today the last of the bracing wires went it and it was time to see how rigid it all was with the engine running for the first time.

I was very pleasantly surprised. The mount I design really isolated the vibrations from the plane. The plane itself is surprisingly strong and rigid. I have some work to do but all in all the test was a huge success. Here is a YouTube link...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7hV9shy0M4[/youtube]

eagledancer

wow that is really looking good!!!! cant wait to see it fly!!!

Chevelle

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Well it is officially complete. I have had two sessions of field and taxi tests at the field of the Canadaigua Chiefs. (Thanks to all that helped out). The weather was far too windy to attempt a flight but everything is ready and looks good. It is now on to Rhinebeck for the big early scale R/C event there this weekend.

YouTube video if taxi test:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgosKxwMpvU[/youtube]

abufletcher

What a truly spectacular model! It's so great to see someone model one of these "funkier" model instead of doing one of the "usual suspects" for the thousandth time.

How did it feel on that taxi run? Did it feel like it wanted to lift off?

Chevelle

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That's me, funky all over!

I did indeed want to fly. With this project, there was a lot of research that went into understanding of the physical characteristics of the plane, i.e. how long are the wings, wire bracing, materials used, etc. The original was alway described as an easy flying airplane. But what is missing are things like the proper amount of travel on all of the surfaces, whether (as with today's designs) the front canard stalls before the main wings.

My biggest concern was what happens when the plane goes from a wheeled vehicle to a flying machine. I have had nightmare about immediate tendencies to pitch up or roll over as soon as the wheels leave the ground. Some of those nightmares are probably unfounded, just normal jitters, but there are truly unknowns. It isn't like I can read the kit manual.

The plane did indeed "load up" on the last taxi run. Ido believe that I achieved at or just below take off speed. You can see in the slomo part of the video that the plane stops bouncing, a sign thatmost of the weight was now being borne by the wings, not the wheels. It was clear to me when I did the run that the plane was just about at takeoff conditions. I am very pleased that I got no sense that the plane would do anything but gently lift off.

If you look carefully again at the video, right at the point where it freezes, you will notice that the right rear wheel starts to vibrate. A solder joint on one of the wheel braces gave out. If that had not happened, I would have attempted a short flying hop on the next run. It is a very quick fix. I will wrap an additional piece of brass over the joint on both braces and resolder. That should be more than enough to withstand the "non scale" grass at most fields.

At least for thisSaturday, the conditions at Rhinebeck are forecast to be very clear and extremely calm. I am hoping for one or two straight hops down the field and then an attempt at a circuit.

Chevelle

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An interesting time at Rhinebeck. Saturday was ideal for flying this type of plane. After getting settled and ready and after the flight line was very gracious in giving me the field to myself, the first attempt at true flight was made. Unfortunately the bumps and ruts in the field are quite full scale which overwhelmed the Proctor wheels. The rears ones just caved.

With the help of the R/C folks there and one trip to the hardware store, some Dubro wheels were adapted and by the late afternoon everything was ready to try again. This time we did get off the ground but the elevator is very sensitive. The touch down was rough and some stuff was broken but very repairable. Even so, Ihad a great time.

buzzard bait

What a beautiful piece of work! I had hoped to see your plane at Rhinebeck, but a medical issue intervened. I'm sure you'll have your Curtiss under control and high in the air very soon. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Jim