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VK Model's Nieuport 17, kit from 1972!

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VK Model's Nieuport 17, kit from 1972!

Old 11-11-2016, 09:50 AM
  #51  
otrcman
 
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Originally Posted by buzzard bait View Post
You're welcome, Leonardo. The engine was a PAW 40. It was great for that model, but I had to put a sheet of cardboard under it every time I started it or else leave a pool of black goop on the grass on our club field. I loved the sound and it's ability to swing a large prop, plus it started easily and provided the perfect power for the plane, so it was with mixed feelings that I finally sold the engine. I am now substituting an old Enya 45 that swings a 13 inch prop well enough on the test stand that I think it will make a good substitute. The sound is not as nice as the diesel, but with the large prop I like it well enough. I hope it will do well in the air.

Another thing I want to try is to put a gyro on the rudder for take off. Ground looping really drove me nuts with this plane, and I've been flying mostly tail-draggers for at least 20 years so I know the techniques. Good luck with your N.17!

Jim

Jim,

I'm betting that you will be more than pleased with the addition of a yaw gyro in you plane. WWI biplanes can be nasty little critters on takeoff and landing and seem made to order for a gyro. Yaw will provide the most dramatic improvement, although roll and pitch will become smoother as well.

Be careful about using Heading Hold (also known as AVCS). HH will definitely lock your plane straight on takeoff, but can give you fits once airborne. Some people switch from HH to Rate immediately after takeoff, but I find that Rate alone works fine for takeoff, landing, and everything in between.

Dick

Last edited by otrcman; 11-11-2016 at 09:58 AM.
Old 11-12-2016, 10:51 AM
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Thanks Dick, I was reading about it and felt a little unsure. HH sounds dangerous. I'll try rate and see how it does. I'd rather not have to turn off HH right when taking off. Things can happen very fast on take-off and I don't want to have to think about it.

This gyro is single axis so it will only be on the rudder. I bought it awhile ago, everything seems to be 3-axis now, which is OK, but I don't need the others.

Jim
Old 11-14-2016, 08:15 AM
  #53  
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yaw gyro? thats cheating!!!
Old 11-14-2016, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rowarrior View Post
yaw gyro? thats cheating!!!

Whatever floats your boat. One of the things I love about building model airplanes is that we all get to do it just the way we want to.

But I put a premium on not only realistic static appearance, but also on realistic dynamic motions in flight. Even as a kid, I hated those phoney looking rocket ships in the old Flash Gordon serials.

As an aero engineer, I'm aware that simply scaling down an airplane means more than reducing all the linear dimensions by the same amount and painting it the same color. In a still photograph, a well scaled model can look very realistic. But in a video the motions don't look at all realistic. People get used to seeing models flit about. A trip to the local airport will show just how smoothly full scale airplanes do fly.

People comment on how much more realistic the big third scale models look in the air. That's true, and it's because the degree of scaling is much less than, say, 1/8 scale. What you see when watching a model in flight is that the inertias and damping of the model do not scale in proportion to the rest of the model. This is inescapible; it has to do with the density of the model and the distances of the various components from the center of gravity. Unfortunately, the only size that accurately reproduces the inertia and damping is 1 : 1. No other size, larger or smaller, reproduces these dynamic components.

A simple example of lack of inertia scaling can be seen in takeoff and landing distances in models. On takeoff, they accelerate like dragsters, getting airborne in a very short distance. On landing, they roll to a stop in just a few lengths of the fuselage. We can fix these visual defects by slowly increasing power on takeoff, and by carrying just a bit of power through the touchdown and then slowly reducing the power to idle so that the plane rolls further.

But what to do about the rapid rotary motions ? I'm talking about the sudden swerves on takeoff or landing, and about the twitches and dips in response to wind gusts. The answer ? A rate gyro. The gyro effectively increases the mass and damping of the model. It gives back what we have unavoidably removed from our scale model in a way that no amount of flying skill can accomplish.

Do you put washout in the wings of your scale model to reduce tip stalling ? Do you dial in some aileron differential to make the plane roll better ? How about a bit of expo or an adustment to elevator travel or moving the CG forward ? If you are really commited to exact scale, you won't do any of those things. If I remember correctly, the CG of a real Sopwith Pup is around 39%. Care to try that on your model ?

My point is that we have accepted many subtle modifications to make our scale models fly more safely and more realistically. These are time honored methods and most of us don't think twice about using them because they're necessary to make up for physical laws of aerodynamics. But along comes the modern rate gyro and we look at it with a wary eye. In fact, the gyro is just another useful accomodation that a scale modeler can use to make up for some of the inescapable side effects of making a plane smaller.

Dick

Last edited by otrcman; 11-14-2016 at 09:03 PM. Reason: spelling correction
Old 11-15-2016, 08:09 AM
  #55  
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I just want to add that if you want to add a gyro and you are using an unregulated LIFE rx pack, make sure your gyro can handle the higher voltage. For example, the Eagle A3 is rated up to 7.4 volts, which is fine, but some others are only rated to 6 volts. They might be OK, but I would definitely check with the manufacturer first and not assume anything.

I totally agree with Dick about using gyros; I'm pretty sure rowarrior had tongue firmly in cheek , but it's amazing how many people actually do think that using a gyro is "cheating".

Jim
Old 11-15-2016, 08:37 AM
  #56  
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Dear guys,

First, hello to all. its nice to say hello to my virtual RC pals!

I typed a nice answer to Dick's posting (otrcman) but somehow it didnt let me post it and I lost it.

Anyhow, long story short, Jim is right, I was trying to poke some fun, I can see why Dick thinks like that. He is an aero engineer. Improving performance is what makes him tick.

In addition to flying RC models, I am a recreational pilot, but mainly a glider pilot. Glider pilots love the performance on new gliders that aero engineers amazingly keep pumping out, but among glider pilots, the use of technological aids is seen as 'cheating' because it comes down to 'who can buy the best flight computer' and not the pilot who will win in a competition.

However; I have no issue with gyros or other tech (i have actually used gyros on some planes) but when it comes to WWI planes I prefer not to use any tech at all. I feel the flying quirks and poor aerodynamics of these birds are the essence of why I love them so much. Using a gyro would steal from my experience flying them. After 26 years of flying RC models, I still get the rookie-goosebumps when I take my WWI planes out.

I know Dick mentioned that making planes smaller comes with side effects, and I agree as well. I only fly 1/6 scale WWI planes but in my humble opinion these "side effects" Dick mentioned are just the original quirks of the big planes slightly amplified.

I think our hobby is great. We love the same thing but we all look at it from a different point of view. I am just a nostalgic I guess

Last edited by rowarrior; 11-15-2016 at 08:52 AM.
Old 11-15-2016, 09:36 AM
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Hi rowarrior, I enjoy your comments! I'm learning good things from Dick too.

My feelings are not that different. If I didn't have to abort about 6 or 8 take-offs for every one I got, I wouldn't be trying to put a gyro on my N.17 either. It's just a beast to get off the ground. I once read that German pilots would sometimes have the wheels welded to the axles, with the axles in bearings, so their planes would go straighter. Yet at Old Rhinebeck no one seems to have a problem.

I think it's worse with smaller planes, and especially when we can't actually sit in the cockpit and make corrections as soon as we feel it's not going straight. The only way I can get my N.17 off the ground is ask everyone to stop for a bit, go out on the field and stand directly behind the plane, and then about once out of six tries I can keep it straight enough to take off. I've been flying tail-draggers for at least 20 years. Once it's in the air I love it, and I use the rudder a lot in the turns, unlike my sport models.

One thing I won't do is widen the landing gear, like BUSA does. Then it looks wrong to me and spoils the reason for building the model in the first place.

Very cool that you fly 1/6th scale WWI models. I'd love to hear more about that. You must be able to take them off OK.

Jim
Old 11-15-2016, 10:01 AM
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You know Jim? with my Nieuport I abort landings too i just prefer to omit admitting it LOL . In fact, i have footage of the maiden flight, look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOIwNxijuYs i had to abort of course.... it was actually after than you helped me lots with the incidences and stuff if you recall . you can see how even a slight breeze upsets how it tracks. Same for quick acceleration and such. The N-17 sure are picky to take off. I had a flame out once, and that was also scary! its at the end of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGSL20akD90

Yes, i have 1/6 scale WWI models because it is all i can fit in the car without dissembling them/ I also keep them at home all put together in my airplane room. I prefer to keep them put together and ready to go. I cannot see myself rigging at the field. You know how it is at the flightline: sweating under the sun, dropping tiny screws on the grass, getting anxious and all that....

My experience with painful take offs start with the N-17 and Fokker Triplane at the top of the list...best ones are the Fokker DVII and SE5a. I suppose that is also the case with the real ones!!! I also own a Camel, Albatros DVa, Bristol M1C, Eindecker, Fokker DVIII, and DH2....i have been wanting the Maxford Bistol Fighter ARF for a while... what do you fly Jim??
Old 11-15-2016, 12:01 PM
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Jim,

You made a comment that, "Yet at Old Rhinebeck no one seems to have a problem."

Yes, the bigger planes are easier to control than a model. Far easier. Not only because of the greater inertias and damping, but also as you suggested, the visual and kinesthetic cues available to the pilot who is actually sitting in the cockpit.

I have a friend who manages a fleet of 20 full scale original and replica WWI airplanes for a wealthy collector. All of these airplanes are regularly flown. They have very few mishaps, but they are also extremely careful to avoid operating them in unfavorable conditions. Winds, especially crosswinds, are a big no-no. They routinely cancel demonstration flights due to wind when a modeler would only call it a breeze. By contrast, during WWI the missions were flown even if there was a wind. The war must go on.

Another consideration for operating WWI full scale aircraft today is that the pilots are generally far more experienced than those of the Great War.

Dick

Last edited by otrcman; 11-15-2016 at 12:30 PM.
Old 11-15-2016, 12:45 PM
  #60  
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Out of curiosity, I just now calculated the reduction in mass moment of inertia for a typical scale model to help illustrate why scale models are so twitchy.

For a 1/6 scale model weighing somewhere in the range that we would typically fly, the mass moment of inertia in any one axis is approximately 1 / 8,000 of the full scale prototype. The reason for this drastic reduction is that the inertia scaling effect is a fifth order variable.

That's why these models ground loop in the blink of an eye.

Dick
Old 11-15-2016, 02:13 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
Jim,

You made a comment that, "Yet at Old Rhinebeck no one seems to have a problem."

Yes, the bigger planes are easier to control than a model. Far easier. Not only because of the greater inertias and damping, but also as you suggested, the visual and kinesthetic cues available to the pilot who is actually sitting in the cockpit.

I have a friend who manages a fleet of 20 full scale original and replica WWI airplanes for a wealthy collector. All of these airplanes are regularly flown. They have very few mishaps, but they are also extremely careful to avoid operating them in unfavorable conditions. Winds, especially crosswinds, are a big no-no. They routinely cancel demonstration flights due to wind when a modeler would only call it a breeze. By contrast, during WWI the missions were flown even if there was a wind. The war must go on.

Another consideration for operating WWI full scale aircraft today is that the pilots are generally far more experienced than those of the Great War.

Dick
Oh but they do!

Sopwith Camel ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nthF8_xEk It's at the very end of the video.

And the Triplane...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoBr7KVxMGo



Jaybird

Last edited by Jaybird; 11-15-2016 at 02:17 PM.
Old 11-15-2016, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaybird View Post
Oh but they do!

Sopwith Camel ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nthF8_xEk It's at the very end of the video.

And the Triplane...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoBr7KVxMGo



Jaybird


Yup. That's why the planes in the Arango collection aren't flown in the wind.

Dick
Old 12-01-2016, 04:44 PM
  #63  
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Nice discussion about gyros. Although it may be helpful, I donŽt think IŽll use one. IŽll just add some exponential to rudders and see what happens. The construction is going fine. Here are some new pictures. I believe the maiden will be in january.
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Old 12-01-2016, 06:26 PM
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Very nice job. I hope it works for you. Dual rates helped me with a Cub, low rates for takeoff.

Maiden in January? You don't live near where I live.

Jim
Old 12-02-2016, 07:37 AM
  #65  
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i also found expo function for the elevator helps lots to keep the plane from nosing in!!!
Old 12-08-2016, 04:19 PM
  #66  
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New pics of the construction!
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:02 AM
  #67  
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very nice!!! have you decided if you will put low profile the servos inside the wing on just regularly inside the fuse?
Old 12-14-2016, 04:52 PM
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Hello Rowarrior,

Well, we are still figuring it out. The aileron mechanism of this plane is a piece of art. Do you believe that having the servos inside the fuse will harm the handling?

By the way, did I tell you that your Youtube videos helped me to decide to buy this old VK kit? Really hope mine will fly as great as yours!

Just another thing. A friend of mine is going to Quebec, and IŽll ask him to bring me some RC stuff. Would you recomend a good online store in Canada?

Regards!
Old 12-15-2016, 12:59 PM
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Hi Leo!

It is very nice to hear that my videos helped you buy the plane. I can tell you, you are going to love it!!! I think your N17 will fly as nice, or nicer than mine. You are obviously very detailed oriented and the work you are doing in your plane looks great.

You are correct, the aileron mechanism is a piece of art, that is why I decided to install the aileron servos directly on the wings. Someone told me that the bell-crank system is complicated and tricky, and sometimes the aileron travel is not enough. In my case, servos in the wings worked very good.

I live far from Quebec, but your friend could get rc stuff shipped to his/her hotel, www.greathobbies.com and www.hobbywholesale.com i believe are the biggest hobby stores in the country I hope this info helps!! feel free to ask me for as many info on the model as you want.
Old 12-15-2016, 07:01 PM
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Yes, the aileron mechanism is amazing, and it provides scale actuation from pushrods going from the fuse to the bottom of the wings. It does have a weak spot, which is the connection between the wood dowels and the aluminum torque tubes. In my very old one I had to cut out some of the bottom covering and put music wire pins through the two because the epoxy joint eventually gave out, probably from expansion and contraction of the aluminum over the years, and maybe swelling and shrinking of the wood dowels.

Of course, if you're not planning on flying it 40 years from now maybe it doesn't matter!

Jim
Old 01-12-2017, 04:41 PM
  #71  
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Rowarrior, thank you for the tips. I bought my itens at Great Hobbies, including a new pair of vintage wheels for the Nieuport. I am not sure if the wired ones that came with the kit will last too long, the rubber is very dry. Besides, the covered wheels are more scale like.

We managed to master the original aileron mechanism using one single servo inside de fuse. It is working fine, it seems (I hope...). Jim, I will always check the connectors before flight, I hope this plane lasts the next 40 years for sure - my Smith Miniplane is with me since 1998.

Until now, it appears that no extra weight in the nose will be necessary. The receiver and all the servos are installed just behind the firewall, above the tank, and the receiver battery is installed on the firewall.

Sadly, the decals of the Escadrille Lafayette broke into pieces, it was too old. I just bought a new one on Ebay. Hope it will survive the trip to Brazil.

Maiden postponed to February.

Regards!!

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Old 01-13-2017, 06:11 AM
  #72  
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So very nice!!! I love it

just remember! make sure to check the incidence angles of both wings before you fly it!!!! thats how Jim (Buzzard Bait) and myself started talking. He helped me lots with that. If the incidences are not correct, the plane may be very hard to control
Old 01-22-2017, 05:31 PM
  #73  
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Almost done. Now we have to finish the final scale details, like the cockpit instruments and wing wires.

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Old 01-23-2017, 07:32 AM
  #74  
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totally gorgeous!!! dont forget to check the incidence on the wings though!
Old 01-24-2017, 06:24 AM
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You are right. That is the moment do adjust incidences. What was the perfect incidences you found? The engine is as the plans suggest, 0 degrees horizontally, 2 degrees to the right!.

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