Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Hello, P-51 Guru's,

I'm thinking about a Scale model of a P-51C. But, of course, no one makes a P-51C in a kit, or otherwise.

Can anyone tell me the difference between a P-51C and the -51D or -51B variant? I'm thinking about kitbashing something, but want to know what type of kit/plans I should be looking for, and what modifications I'll need to make.

The most important question would be what, if any, external differences there are?

Thanks for your info,

Bob

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

The B and C models are similar except the C model has the Malcomb hood. The D has a totally different canopy and aft top fuse section and dorsal fin. So as you can see there is a lot of difference between the D and the other two. Aeroloft makes a B version. You might look them up on the net and check it out.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Thanks, Bob... Malcolm hood? I'm not familiar with that. Could you tell me what a Malcolm Hood was?

I knew about the bubble canopy - that's a no-brainer. Was the Malcolm Hood that quasi-bubble canopy over the pilots head in the razorback? Or does the Malcolm Hood refer to something else.

Sorry for showing my ignorance.

Thanks,

Bob

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Diff between B and C is the factory were it was built. The Malcom hood is a field retrofit. Go for the P-51A, they are classy and very rare.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

The B was built in Inglewood, Ca. and the C was built in Dallas, Tx. That's the only difference between the two. The Malcom hood for the B/C was a field modification undertaken by the British and some were used by the USAAF. The D had the bubble canopy and 3 guns per wing instead of just 2 guns per wing in the B/C models. You will also see the dorsal fins installed on some B/C models, but the D's had them installed. That's the major difference between them.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

The Malcolm Hood, without a better way to describe it, is like a Spitfire canopy with a bubble over the pilots head.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

The dorsal fin was introduced on the D model to improve yaw stabililty. The cut down turtle deck reduced the side area, reportedly causing stability problems..the dorsal fin was the fix. However, some very early D models were build without the dorsal.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Ok, I'll join the fun! As stated the B and C model are identical in appearance and both versions can be found with the flat canopy or the Malcolm hood. The dorsal fin was a field modification to some B and C Mustangs though I'm not sure why it was added. The D has the teardrop canopy and was introduced without a dorsal fin but one was quickly added to replace some of the side area (and stability) lost with the lowered rear fuselage. The B/C only had four .50s, two in each wing, while the D had six total. The leading edge strake (where the main wheel folds up into) on the D is much more pronounced than that of the B/C and the clamshell gear doors are slightly different as well. That's all I can think of, anybody got anymore?

Here is the Malcolm hood going on Jack Roush's P-51B restoration.

http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/p51blatest04.jpg

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Chad.. ya know the A wing was a totally different wing.. that would be neat to make..

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Bob, the A wing is the same as the B/C wing. The changes to the wing planform did not come until the D model. To me the early Allison powered Mustangs are far more interesting than any of the Merling variants, but I'm wierd that way. (just ask my wife)

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

I read somewhere, that the stab on the B/C is slightly higher also. May want to check that out to be sure.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Wow, thanks for all the information!!!

For the record, the model will be a "C" variant (can't say why just now - don't want to tip my hand) but I'll definitely look at the stab on the plane that I want to model.

I'd also heard the comment that the C variant was a little bit faster than the B but I don't know (a) if it's true, or, (b) if true, whether it was due to a bigger engine (not likely) or something in the aerodynamics.

I'll also look in the wing root to see if there was a size difference in that leading edge 'bump' for the LG. My photos seem to show a slightly less pronounced LE there.

A closer inspection of my photos also shows that my particular plane did not have the Malcolm Hood, so I won't need to deal with that.

If I remember correctly, the Tuskeegee Airmen were issued P-51C's and had their tailplanes all painted red. A Tuskeegee airman that I know says that they never lost a bomber that they were guarding.

Thanks for all the info folks. Any more comments???

Bob

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Chad. sorry I was thinking about the A model with the Dive brakes. Duh Me.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

If you can find one of the earlier red box Top Flite P-51 kits, the plans show variants for the A36, A, B, and C versions. They also had a separate kit out to modify the base kit to a D model. I actually found the kit I have in a salvage shop for $25.00, and actually talked them down to $15.00. I hope to build it someday soon.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

I was looking at that too - a TF Gold Edition P-51 with the B-modification kit. That might fit the bill. As it turns out, I don't need the Malcolm Hood, so the stock canopy (as long as it's close to scale size) should fit.

I wonder what other types of P-51B kits are available out there for, say, a Saito-120?

Bob

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Another difference that I doubt you would want to reproduce in a model is the marques before the "D" having a
thinner wing.

The wing was thin enough before the "D" wing such that the early variants guns were mounted on an angle.
This would cause belt feed problems under high G situations and possibly jam the guns.

The thicker "D" wing allowed guns to be mounted straight up vertical and corrected the gun jamming problems under G.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Guys, 'tis true the B and C were built in different factories and that was the main difference, but I seem to recall reading somewhere many years ago that the C model used a different propeller than the B. No real difference if memory serves, just made by a different prop manufacturer.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

The K model P-51 used an Aeroproducts propellor rather than the normal Ham Standard. As far as I know all B/C Mustangs were equipped with the Ham Standard out of the factory.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Don't know about a height change but I do know there was an incidence change in the horizontal stab at some point during the production run. I'm pretty sure it didn't change until some point in the production of the D model though.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51_Variants.html

and

http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/19...g_p51early.htm

-David C.

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Here's a shot of my pride and joy!!! Definately do the early version. I have a lot of fun flying this bird. It's got retracts, flaps, bomb drops and yes those dive brakes really work. Good luck with your project JG

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Chad, the documentation I have confirms what you say.

It says "the installation of this tank (the 85 gal fuselage tank) would be the factor that resulted in high speed porpoising and would cause the later replacement of the fabric covered elevators with metal covered surfaces and a decrease of the tail-plane incidence." That reference and other sources say the original incidence was +2° which was changed to +1/2°. (sce: Mustang - the story of the P-51 fighter by Robert Gruehagen)

Another source says that the change was made during late D model production.

In reading about the Mustang's development it's interesting that despite its remarkably short design period, it didn't have as many operational problems as other fighters with longer development times and all the problems were easily fixed. The basic design was sound.

Yet when it went into initial production only the wing had been wind tunnel tested. Other interesting trivia was that the Chief Design Engineer Edgar Schumued was a German immigrant who was not a degreed engineer. The Mustang was the first major project for chief aerodynamicist Ed Horkley. They and the rest of the team produced a fighter with the lowest drag of any prop driven airplane in during WWII. That and the fuel efficient Merlin are what gave it the longest range of any of the escort fighters.

Sure makes interesting reading!

Tony

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

JG, that's a beautiful plane... really nice detail. I hope mine comes out half as well. I'm guessing your powering yours with something around a 4S 120, would that be a good guess?

Tony, that was interesting reading.... This thread has turned up a lot of trivia that I never knew about the 'Stang....

Any more???

Bob

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

I acquired a lot of scale information for my own Mustang project Bob. It sorta became an obsession in and of itself! Of what I have, the best reads I found was the book referenced earlier and:

Mustang Designer - Edgar Schmued and the P-51 by Ray Wagner (actual title may be slighty different - my copy is on loan to a friend)

Development of the P-51 Long-Range Escort Fighter Mustang by Paul Ludwig (this one concentrates on the red tape and bungling by the Air Force in adopting the Mustang)

Packard Motors part in producing the Packard Merlin is another story in itself and is detailed in the earlier book which also has a lot of technical data about the Mustang.

Two other points and then I'll bow out your thread. There still is a lot of controversy about the laminar flow wing's contribution to to the Mustang's low overall drag. Lee Atwood who was VP of Engineering at NAA stated in an inverview shortly before his death that the wing drag was only slightly better than other airfoils used at the time. He stated its major contribution was that it allowed a higher critical mach number than the others, allowing the Mustang to out dive all the other fighters of its time before encountering compressiblity problems. The Mustang's never exceed speed was 505 mph.

The other thing that interested me is the commonly claimed reduced drag from the unique coolant scoop. Near as I can tell from my reading is that it probably did not add any significant thrust by ejecting the hot air at the rear - certainly not at cruise speeds. What it did do is keep the Mustang's nose aerodynamically clean.

Then there was the project to compare wind tunnel drag testing of the D model with actual drag by tow testing an otherwise operational Mustang just like a glider!

As I said, the books above are great reading if you like Mustangs. Sorry I rambled on so long.

Tony

RE: Differences between P-51C and P-51D or B?
 

Bob, A good place to start for a b/c version is with Dave Platts Mustang. I don't know what size you are planning on building. His are around 85" I believe. You could have Kinko's down size them if you needed to. I think they are much more scale than the Top Flite. I see you're in Brockton MA. I'm not too far from you in RI. Do you go to any of the area flying meets? JG