do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

maybe its just me, lets do a poll to see what everyone thinks
do arfs belong in scale forum or not?

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Sometimes , yes, and sometimes no. Some are a stretch when it comes to scale, but then there are "semi" scale kits out there that don't belong either.
I would like to see seperate forums for Scale kits and Scale ARFs, but then where do we draw the line on how many actual forums we have. :eek:

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

I understand from an article in one of the mags (MAN?) that you can strip the covering off an ARF, recover it, and add details and it is legal for scale competion?!

Personally, unless you've built and finished the plane, I'd not allow it.

Paul

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

This is probably going to start a war, but the acid test is: Can you sign the Builder of the Model form?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

One of those inevitable things, I guess. Scale is scale; it doesn't define whether it's stand-off or fine detail. As long as the outline and proportions are okay, what's wrong with adding all the rivets, panel lines, scale gear, cutting out a functional door, grab handles, "NO PUSH" decals, antennae, etc, and entering it in a contest, claiming you built it? Just say you subbed out the airframe constuction to a Chinese subcontractor.:D

Really, maybe they ought to create a class in competition for ARF built planes. Sort of like finding an old junker '55 Chevy and "Overhauling" it. You didn't build the original, but what it became is all your work, so you really did "build" it.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

I never thought about it much until the last few years when I have built a few of the Balsa USA WWI 1/4 and 1/3 scale planes. I never realised how bad monokote looks and how bad other features like plastic pannels look where metal should be. Case in point is that Sopwith Camel from Hangar 9. A few years ago I would have probably thought it was a great looking plane. But now it just looks terrible in that shiny plastic wrap. But as far as permitting ARFs in scale, I would say for a plane like that out of the box, no, but reworked or dressed up ARFs, sure. Even then there are exceptions, some of the Flying Styro planes that hobby-lobby sells are absolutly beautiful and ARF or not are fine scale models.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

I agree with Stickbuilder, if you didn't build the framework you can not sign the Builder of Model form. If another class is needed, so be it. You don't redecorate your house and call yourself a home builder.


Harry

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

If you don't accept ARF's, then scale modelling will become a dwindling activity. There won't be enough competitors to support scale events- it is a fact that the number of people building is decreasing and the number of ARFs are increasing. I think that is one of the reasons that Scalemasters created a clas to allow arfs to compete.

Secondly, some of the ARFs are getting very impressive (hanger 9, RC Guys, Tams, etc). Having said that, it is unlikely that a decently built scratch build would be threatened competively if they were competing in the same class.

There are more aspects to scale modeling than the construction phase. It is an excellent opportunity to pass on these skills such as gathering documentation, detailing, and flying manouvers in a realistic manner to the newcomers who- like as not- are going to be bringing ARFs.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

well since the question is do( "scale ARFs" ) ARFs belong in a scale forum I would ask if you were to buy an ARF such as the Hangar9 camel and you wanted to do it up as scale as possible what other forum would you go to? Seems logical that they belong here (At least to me) Do they belong in a scale compertition ? that's another question

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Put 'em in a separate forum, and leave the scale forum for builders

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

i second that one!

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

One of us needs a reality check.

I believe it is PEOPLE who visit this forum, people who are INTERESTED in scale models and modeling. If you are saying you don't want a segment of the RCU people reading or posting about Scale models, I believe that's not the objective of RCU.

One might mention that there is a Kit Building Forum, a Warbird Forum, a Scratchbuild forum, and probably others. Would you have those interested in posting questions and comments barred, because they fly an ARF?

I believe these Discussion Forums are intended to be open to all. Even if they fly electrics or helicopters, or support the AMA. If they post about something you don't want to read, I suggest you not read.

My 2¢ worth,
Dave Olson

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Do ARFs belong in competitions and do ARFs belong in the Scale Forum are two totally different questions.

I personally hold no animosity whatsoever towards ARFs. I like to build. And I like that there are ARFs available for those "in between" times. I'd love to see a range of "BUSA quality" WWI ARFs for sale. Anything that would result in more scale (or even just semi-scale) bipes and fewer Extras and 3-D at the field sounds good to me! :D I currently own one of the Kyosho Me-109 ARFs. I bought it on a whim as a little gift to myself. I cost about $140. I wish there would have been an WWI ARF I could have bought instead.

As far as the Scale Forum is concerned, I say "Why can't we all just get along!" The number of dead-on scale masterpieces will always be a numbers game. Of the mountains of RC models out there only a small percent, maybe 10% or so, even attempt to look like a real plane (and this number includes all the semi and sports scale ARFs and kits). Of those maybe less than 1% actually maintain true scale outlines (even excluding non-scale airfoils). Of this 1% only a few models are actually the sort of scale masterpiece that we all admire -- whether or not we actually aspire to build to that level ourselves.

So the hard fact is this: If we want to see more Scale Masterpieces we need as broad a base as possible of semi-scale models. So the more ARFs the better. And the more people modilify ARFs the better. And the more people building scale-ish kits the better. It's all good.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

it just burns a bit to enter the scale forum and see posts about arfs, i dont come here for that i come here to talk about scale aircraft not something that is mass produced in china or elsewhere, i have yet to see a arf that is near to scale. i used to frequent the giant forum but it has been overrun with extras ect. i find i am starting to get pushed to other sites, i could care less about arfs. they may be here to stay but some of us builders are also here to stay! so i wouldlike to see arfs taken elsewhere.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Well, the truth is that RCU's Scale Forum is rather light-weight compared with the very serious builders and building going on over at RCSB. One reason I'm posting my Snipe build here on RCU instead of on RCSB is the wider reader base we have here.

Also I appreciate the non-elitist atmosphere on RCU. RCSB is a great place to hang out with many friendly and helpful people. But I can understand how it might be a bit intimidating to some less experienced scale fans. Maybe by experiencing, through my thread here, the construction of a "sports scale" kit, someone might be encouraged to build a similar kit. Or do a better job. Or even just to do a bit better job of make an ARF just a bit more scale.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

A scale model is a scale model. Some are better and some are terrible. That does not even speak to whether it's an ARF or not. I don't like reading about ARF's in this forum since there are forums for ARF's and this one seems to be about scale building. I scratch build, kit build and ARF construct. I come here for the building and would not ever consider talking about my P-51 scale ARF here except in casual passing.

But I do think a scale airplane is a scale airplane even if it's an ARF. I think 'Funscale' is where they belong in competition because of the builder of the model rule. I like Scale ARF's because I can fly the mule while building my next scale airplane.

I do think they (scale ARF model titles) belong in the ARF forum and leave this for scale building for organizational reasons.

Just my 2 cents

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Having ARF's here in the Scale forum is harmless, read what you want, and ignore what you want. It's an information exchange. ARF people can learn from builders. We all have the same criteria - good looking airplanes that look like airplanes, instead of Ugly Sticks.

More Importantly - IMAC/3D planes need to be seperated from GIANT SCALE in that forum. It's real crazy up there. Different flyers, different criteria.

> Jim

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

[X(] OH OH, here we go again...............

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

I agree with that, and I think there's a place in this forum (scale) for ARF's. I prefer to build, and whenever I can I do, but if it weren't for ARFs I wouldn't be flying nearly as much as I do; work, maintaining a small hobby farm, taxiing the kids, etc really eats into building time, and this time of year when a day comes on a weekend with no clouds, 60 degree temps and no wind, I'm gonna be at the field, not the workshop or the garden.

Scale is much more than an accurate outline and the correct wingspan. More than a few of us have seen (and done ourselves) what some of these latest ARFs can look like with a better covering, added details, nicer wheels and maybe some minor airframe mods (Reinforcements, cockpit mods, more scale control surfaces, etc). Someone mentioned the new H-9 Camel--one of my friends, who has built close to a dozen WWI planes either from scratch or kits, and has had his planes on the covers of several mags, is about finished re-covering this H-9 Camel with Solartex, changing the area around the guns to make it closer to scale, and repainted it to look like the one in "The Great Waldo Pepper". You'd never believe it was the same plane, and what makes it really "scale" is more his work than H-9's when it comes down to the details.

I wouldn't expect someone to go to Top Gun or Scale Masters with an ARF and take top honors, but what's wrong with a "fun scale" event or class? I wouldn't be ashamed or try to hide the fact it was an ARF, instead, I'd try to showcase how much I improved on the original model to make it more realistic.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Now THAT would be an intersting competition. Here's the deal, everyone HAS to start with an ARF. Then the fun begins! It's the 50's all over again where you try to take the family Ford and turn it into the hottest ride on the strip! Now if we could just convince ARF manufacturers to offer an "uncovered" option. Hell, I might even pay EXTRA for it! :D

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Don that would be a great contest!
Keep the forum open!!
Oh and there are lots of times when I prefer flying an ARF over a more prized model; "mixing it up" with a bunch of other WWI airplanes, windy days, or even just sharing airspace with a crowd.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Wow, we just beat this DEAD HORSE to death recently here on RCU. Bottom Line, ARF's are just that. You didn't build it, so you can't take credit for it. Get over it!

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Build it. Hmmm. Therein lies the bottomless pit of discussion. One of Dave's Platt's most famous saying (does that make it a "Plattitude?") is something to the effect that once you've framed up your model and covered it you're only about half done with a scale model. But an awful lot of modelers quit right there -- or perhaps after slapping on some quickie markings.

Then there is the ARF refurbisher who may go the whole hog into the "post-frame up" half of the scale building process. And what about a team of builders? Or a team of builders where one guy frames the thing up and then the next guy does the other 6 months (or longer) worth of work.

Oh and personally, I'd say anyone who makes an F-100 out of a fiberglass fuse kit and foam wings is in the same leaky boat as ARF refurbishers.

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Maybe we should just have everyone prove that they can build (by doing so) before they are allowed to buy an ARF. [:-]

Seriously, I am a scale builder, and I think that the ARF movement is probably the best thing that has happened to our hobby. At the same time it is the worst thing that has happened to our hobby. First, the ARF has gotten more people involved in this hobby, since they do not have to learn to build, and practice the other disciplines that we had to learn in order to be able to fly. But, it has attracted those with the, "Skateboarder" mentality. These are the here today gone tomorrow types who are only into instant gratification and what's next?

Should the ARFer's be allowed to compete in the scale arena with stick-built models? Absolutely not. Should there be an event for them? That should be up to them. Would I attend? Not likely, since my interests lie in other directions. Should we ban them from the scale forum? How else will they be introduced to the time honored traditions of this hobby? Let's let them come to the forum, they just might catch the bug, and be the next generation of scale builders. Hell, we just might get biten by their bug, and buy an ARF or 3.

Have I gotten religion? Not their brand of it, but I watched some younger guys flying their ARF's over the last few weeks, and These guys are really good pilots. True they only have some cash invested in their models, rather than hundreds of hours, so they probably let it hand out more than you or I would. Cut them some slack, and let them learn to love the hobby, then we spring the trap on them after it's too late[8D]

Bill, AMa 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?
 

Abufletcher,
I totally agree. That's why there is "Team Scale". I believe if the ARF'ers her on RCU want a seperate forum for their pre-made aircraft that is OK. Yellow Aircraft and a couple of others make quality pre-built and ARF aircraft, but the buyer is not the one dong the build. I do not believe these types of aircraft should be allowed to compete in static judging against scratch-built or kit built aircraft.