Engel Typhoon submarine
02-02-2007, 05:13 PM
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Engel Typhoon submarine
Gents,
FYI: Recently, I started building an Engel Typhoon Submarine. I must tell you, after seeing this behemoth I am very impressed. Engel has done their homework and added all the panel lines, markings, etc and made the sub very scale. (Master Scale series)I am just as impressed with the TMAX system of diving. It is very simple to set up, compared to systems of old. I have built a few Engels, which can be seen in my gallery, and I believe this one will be my favorite. My question is, does anyone know of any sites, books etc, where I can get some scale documentation. It seems that there is an aura of great mystery surrounding Russian submarines. Specifically, I am looking for color schemes (ok, BLACK, I know but there has to be some variances) hull markings, coats of arms, etc. I have some time to go before it is ready for paint but I would like to have a few ideas, if possible. Also, if anyone has any tips feel free to post them here, I will do the same.
наилучшие пожеланиÑ,
Пит (Капитан Ð*Ð°Ð¼Ð¸ÑƒÑ Ð² обучении)
FYI: Recently, I started building an Engel Typhoon Submarine. I must tell you, after seeing this behemoth I am very impressed. Engel has done their homework and added all the panel lines, markings, etc and made the sub very scale. (Master Scale series)I am just as impressed with the TMAX system of diving. It is very simple to set up, compared to systems of old. I have built a few Engels, which can be seen in my gallery, and I believe this one will be my favorite. My question is, does anyone know of any sites, books etc, where I can get some scale documentation. It seems that there is an aura of great mystery surrounding Russian submarines. Specifically, I am looking for color schemes (ok, BLACK, I know but there has to be some variances) hull markings, coats of arms, etc. I have some time to go before it is ready for paint but I would like to have a few ideas, if possible. Also, if anyone has any tips feel free to post them here, I will do the same.
наилучшие пожеланиÑ,
Пит (Капитан Ð*Ð°Ð¼Ð¸ÑƒÑ Ð² обучении)
02-02-2007, 07:03 PM
#2
RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
I've had a Typhoon for a couple of years now, in the unlikely event you have a problem let me know.
I think you will find all seven of them were black, I did a lot of searching and couldn't find much info either though there are a few photo's on the net, Gary.
I think you will find all seven of them were black, I did a lot of searching and couldn't find much info either though there are a few photo's on the net, Gary.
02-03-2007, 02:20 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
I ran a Engel Typhoon once, the original version. It makes a very impressive and characteristic wake on the suface when running underwater due to its size, very easy to spot! All Typhoons were painted black with red antifoul below the midline when built and after major refits. Though inbetween these times it was painted all black during routine maintance. The sonar windows are often a different color, light grey is seen most often. Hull markings seem almost constant, there are two surface waterline marks (full and empty of missles?) The apperance and the hull appendages changed during refits and such. TK-208 now (as Dimitry Donskoy) has a very differant appearance easpecially the back. Coat of arms only appeared in the post Soviet era, from the mid 90's onwards. The Engel hull depicts an early Typhoon, and Soviet subs would have sported the Red Star. Windows were picked out in white for ceremonial occations. The tower on the the 1st Engel Typhoon was placed too far forward and need to be move backwards about 15-20mm from the scribed position. The reactor intakes need to be moved forward about 40mm, as they are positioned too far back. Don't bond in all the lead weight that Engel recommends. If you do this, you will have to use foam to balance it out and you won't be able to keep a realistic waterline and still dive the boat fully, as the ballast tanks are of insufficient volume. the prototype Typhhon had 4x 500ml ballast tanks but it would have cost too much. Make sure you have independent throttles unless you have a VERY large puddle to sail it in. The push rods for the rear control, surfaces need to pe reinforced or use Bowden cable, as they are very long and the 3mm brass rods will flex, not too much bother for the rudder but bad news for your pitch controller trying to keep it level. The Typhoon had 7 bladed props, do Engel still supply 6 bladded one? Please post your build pictures as you go along seen your gallery, very impressive subs. This forum really needs a decent build thread of a proper sub kit.
02-06-2007, 05:51 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the ideas! I have been working on it (time permitting) and have the upper hull filed out and painted. One deviation I did do was to epoxy in an aluminum tube where the bolt runs in the front. This allowed me to build a vertical shaft, if you will, and keep the latch bolt aligned better. In addition, I am scrapping the metric hardware and using stainless steel SAE bolts for my build. Its just easier for me to get SS screws, nuts, bolts, etc around here. I was thinking about independant throttles, which would have been difficult for my Futaba 9CAP radio but I think I found a better solution to pass along. Harbor Models sells a device that plugs into your rudder input and your throttles. When you make a turn the device slows one motor down and speeds up the other to the point of actually being able to reverse the motor. It works much like the drives on a tank, only it is made specifically for controlling ships. I thought that may be the solution to the problem so I ordered one....we will see how it works.
Thanks again!
Pete
Thanks for the ideas! I have been working on it (time permitting) and have the upper hull filed out and painted. One deviation I did do was to epoxy in an aluminum tube where the bolt runs in the front. This allowed me to build a vertical shaft, if you will, and keep the latch bolt aligned better. In addition, I am scrapping the metric hardware and using stainless steel SAE bolts for my build. Its just easier for me to get SS screws, nuts, bolts, etc around here. I was thinking about independant throttles, which would have been difficult for my Futaba 9CAP radio but I think I found a better solution to pass along. Harbor Models sells a device that plugs into your rudder input and your throttles. When you make a turn the device slows one motor down and speeds up the other to the point of actually being able to reverse the motor. It works much like the drives on a tank, only it is made specifically for controlling ships. I thought that may be the solution to the problem so I ordered one....we will see how it works.
Thanks again!
Pete
02-07-2007, 04:48 AM
#5
RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Hi Pete. I found that the front bolt was a pain so I epoxied a big magnet and steel plate in the bow, less fiddly.
Regarding turning, it is a major problem so anything you can do to change motor speeds is a good idea.
One word of advise, when you fit the WTC make sure it fits exact particularly front to rear to within .020 to .030" otherwise nothing else fits properly, it's crucial.
Gary.
Regarding turning, it is a major problem so anything you can do to change motor speeds is a good idea.
One word of advise, when you fit the WTC make sure it fits exact particularly front to rear to within .020 to .030" otherwise nothing else fits properly, it's crucial.
Gary.
02-11-2007, 07:39 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Hi Pete, check this out http://www.subpirates.com/viewtopic.php?t=1344 This guy is building an amazing Engel Typhoon. The kit now looks much improved from the version I built. Any update on yours?
02-15-2007, 07:04 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Taxi,
Yes, that is exactly the kit I am building. I do have a few tips to pass on so here goes.
I do recommend for filing all the little holes on this sub (or any sub for that matter) save your fingers and buy an electric file. I purchased one from Mico-Mark for under $100.00 and it made this tedious job much, MUCH easier. Considering there is 100+ holes to file exactly square, its a no-brainer. Also, use good files. I use diamond files and they seemed to have stayed sharp. This has undoubtably saved a ton of work on this project.
Next came laying out and drilling all the holes for the shafts, etc on the inner hull. Do your self a favor and get a water erasable marker. I have one that I use and it is permanent until you wash it off. Lay out all the holes carefully, paying close attention where they go. I use a dial caliper and a graduated scale from a Hobbico builders mat to get my measurements. DON'T DRILL YOUR HOLES YET!!! What I did find out was to double check everything. For instance, the span between the motor output shaft was off by a couple of millimeters on the directions. When I checked it with my caliper I found that it did not match up. So, I used the caliper and measured directly off the center of the shafts, using that for my measurements. It doesn't sound like much but if you were to drill the holes and have them a couple of millimeters off center then you would have to re-drill them and make them bigger, making it more difficult to seal properly. I ended up checking and in some cases laying out the holes a second time. Better to measure twice and cut once. Anyway, once I got all the measurements correct then I drilled everything out. For the holes I used decimal sized drill bits. I do not have metric and for all the holes I was able to get a good fit. Bond all the tubes etc in as stated in the directions. While I was doing all this I was checking to see the layout of all the components. I followed the diagram pretty closely. I did install a throttle proportioner for Action electronics. The thought there is that it will slow one propellor down to the point of reversing it during a turn. Should help this monster turn a little bit better. The final measurement I made was to draw a line 26MM from the top of the inner hull fore and aft to represent the line at which it should line up with the top edge of the lower hull. Once I set the inner hull onto the lower hull I placed two straight edges next to the lines until I had everything lined up. I found that I was able to get everything lined up within 1/2 mm or so. Considering this is a fiberglass layup I figured that was pretty good. Length from front of sub to front of inner hull was spot on. Looks good so far.
Next comes bonding in the inner hull. Like a lot of people I am reading about, it is common to have a gap between the inner and outer hull. Mine was no exception. I rough sanded everything down to allow the resin to grip. I then made the mistake of following the instructions to use reinforced packing tape on the inner hull as a liner. The thought was to line it with the tape and simply peel it away when the resin mixture dried. Sounds good in theory but for me it was a disaster on the scope of the RMS Titanic sinking. The resin leaked in everywhere and I ended up removing much of the resin from inside the pressure hull and doing it my way. Heres what I did. Take modeling clay, roll it into strips and line the joint between the inner hull and outer hull (inside the pressure hull). Then roll more clay into strips and place on the forward part and rearward part of the inner hull, making sure the corners build up a sort of trough. This will be needed in the first pours of the resin. Once you have everything sealed (you can check it by looking inside of the pressure hull and using a flashlight to see if any light shines through, if it does, then you have a hole to patch with more clay. Once you are satisfied then mix up your resin and microballoons. I used Sig finishing resin but the stuff that comes with the kit is just as good. I mixed up 5 oz for the port and stern side (long) pours) To that I added a considerable amount of microballoons to thicken it up. The easiest way is just to pour it slowly into the gap all the length down the submarine pressure hull. Do one side then the other. I use heat lamps to speed everything along, although this is not nessessary, it will heat as it cures. After the sides are done, remove the clay from the front and aft this way. Use a stiff scaper to remove most of the clay. For the rest of it use a stiff pointy brush with some clorox or ajax cleanser. Thius will take some work but it will remove 85-90% of it. Was thouroughly. Then use a Dremel with a small round sander and clean out and roughen the ends. Clean thouroughly. Tip the sub up on end, mix up another batch of resin/microballoons (3oz will work) and pour. Let dry and do the other end. You will end up with a tough joint that will be watertight. You can remove the clay from inside the pressure hull if you wish or leave it as is. I have done this in the past and wish I would have done this from the start. Would have saved me some time, effort and resin. Live and learn.
Anyway, I am going to work on the electronics tonight and get that up and running.
Take care,
Pete
Yes, that is exactly the kit I am building. I do have a few tips to pass on so here goes.
I do recommend for filing all the little holes on this sub (or any sub for that matter) save your fingers and buy an electric file. I purchased one from Mico-Mark for under $100.00 and it made this tedious job much, MUCH easier. Considering there is 100+ holes to file exactly square, its a no-brainer. Also, use good files. I use diamond files and they seemed to have stayed sharp. This has undoubtably saved a ton of work on this project.
Next came laying out and drilling all the holes for the shafts, etc on the inner hull. Do your self a favor and get a water erasable marker. I have one that I use and it is permanent until you wash it off. Lay out all the holes carefully, paying close attention where they go. I use a dial caliper and a graduated scale from a Hobbico builders mat to get my measurements. DON'T DRILL YOUR HOLES YET!!! What I did find out was to double check everything. For instance, the span between the motor output shaft was off by a couple of millimeters on the directions. When I checked it with my caliper I found that it did not match up. So, I used the caliper and measured directly off the center of the shafts, using that for my measurements. It doesn't sound like much but if you were to drill the holes and have them a couple of millimeters off center then you would have to re-drill them and make them bigger, making it more difficult to seal properly. I ended up checking and in some cases laying out the holes a second time. Better to measure twice and cut once. Anyway, once I got all the measurements correct then I drilled everything out. For the holes I used decimal sized drill bits. I do not have metric and for all the holes I was able to get a good fit. Bond all the tubes etc in as stated in the directions. While I was doing all this I was checking to see the layout of all the components. I followed the diagram pretty closely. I did install a throttle proportioner for Action electronics. The thought there is that it will slow one propellor down to the point of reversing it during a turn. Should help this monster turn a little bit better. The final measurement I made was to draw a line 26MM from the top of the inner hull fore and aft to represent the line at which it should line up with the top edge of the lower hull. Once I set the inner hull onto the lower hull I placed two straight edges next to the lines until I had everything lined up. I found that I was able to get everything lined up within 1/2 mm or so. Considering this is a fiberglass layup I figured that was pretty good. Length from front of sub to front of inner hull was spot on. Looks good so far.
Next comes bonding in the inner hull. Like a lot of people I am reading about, it is common to have a gap between the inner and outer hull. Mine was no exception. I rough sanded everything down to allow the resin to grip. I then made the mistake of following the instructions to use reinforced packing tape on the inner hull as a liner. The thought was to line it with the tape and simply peel it away when the resin mixture dried. Sounds good in theory but for me it was a disaster on the scope of the RMS Titanic sinking. The resin leaked in everywhere and I ended up removing much of the resin from inside the pressure hull and doing it my way. Heres what I did. Take modeling clay, roll it into strips and line the joint between the inner hull and outer hull (inside the pressure hull). Then roll more clay into strips and place on the forward part and rearward part of the inner hull, making sure the corners build up a sort of trough. This will be needed in the first pours of the resin. Once you have everything sealed (you can check it by looking inside of the pressure hull and using a flashlight to see if any light shines through, if it does, then you have a hole to patch with more clay. Once you are satisfied then mix up your resin and microballoons. I used Sig finishing resin but the stuff that comes with the kit is just as good. I mixed up 5 oz for the port and stern side (long) pours) To that I added a considerable amount of microballoons to thicken it up. The easiest way is just to pour it slowly into the gap all the length down the submarine pressure hull. Do one side then the other. I use heat lamps to speed everything along, although this is not nessessary, it will heat as it cures. After the sides are done, remove the clay from the front and aft this way. Use a stiff scaper to remove most of the clay. For the rest of it use a stiff pointy brush with some clorox or ajax cleanser. Thius will take some work but it will remove 85-90% of it. Was thouroughly. Then use a Dremel with a small round sander and clean out and roughen the ends. Clean thouroughly. Tip the sub up on end, mix up another batch of resin/microballoons (3oz will work) and pour. Let dry and do the other end. You will end up with a tough joint that will be watertight. You can remove the clay from inside the pressure hull if you wish or leave it as is. I have done this in the past and wish I would have done this from the start. Would have saved me some time, effort and resin. Live and learn.
Anyway, I am going to work on the electronics tonight and get that up and running.
Take care,
Pete
02-16-2007, 08:01 AM
#8
RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
I totally agree with everthing SS says. I actually drilled 1/16 holes in each corner of the slots and a bigger hole in the centre and finished off with a diamond needle file which happened to be the same size as the finished slots . It didn't take that long either. It is a fact that even if 1 slot is mis shapen it will stick out like a sore thumb so care is required. Good luck.
02-17-2007, 01:21 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Great descriptions SS, would have made my life easier had I done it your way. Nice build up pics too.
I found that a there was a certain order to getting all the components into the presure hull. From memory, main drive gearbox, rear tank pushed all the way back and not screwed down, front tank, screw down both tanks, front plane gear box, then radio gear and electronics. The new version with the bigger access hatch would have made things a little easier.
Thats a 'Nice shot of your Typhoon Gary, brings back memories.
I found that a there was a certain order to getting all the components into the presure hull. From memory, main drive gearbox, rear tank pushed all the way back and not screwed down, front tank, screw down both tanks, front plane gear box, then radio gear and electronics. The new version with the bigger access hatch would have made things a little easier.
Thats a 'Nice shot of your Typhoon Gary, brings back memories.
02-18-2007, 06:49 AM
#10
RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Thanks for the compliment. I only posted the pic so you knew I had actually built one! I find that a lot of people give advice and actually have not even built a sub!! Gary.
p.s. Wish I had a bigger hole in the top of mine!
p.s. Wish I had a bigger hole in the top of mine!
03-11-2007, 04:30 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Hi All,
Well, I am continuing to get the bugs out of the T-Max system. I ran into a problem with the aft tank filling no matter what the radio signalled it to do. After quite a few e-mails and conversations with Gregor Engel himself (!!) we came to the conclusion that the IC chip has a flaw. He is sending me a new one so I should have all that done soon. As for radios, I finally ran out of channels with my Futaba 9CAP. To utilize all the features of the T-Max system you need three channels to operate it. I had to break down and purchase an F-14 with all the bells and whistles. Nice radio, but I still like my 9CAP better. I looked into using a MCD switch 8 or 16 in the sub (I use one already for other ships so all I would have to do is purchase the module for the submarine) but this proved unpractical as the device is quite large and am finding out space really is at a premium in this hull. So, the F-14 seemed a natural alternative. I am posting this picture to show the problem I am having with the T-Max. If anyone else has this problem, try replacing the IC on the logic board.
Will post progress in the future.
Pete
Well, I am continuing to get the bugs out of the T-Max system. I ran into a problem with the aft tank filling no matter what the radio signalled it to do. After quite a few e-mails and conversations with Gregor Engel himself (!!) we came to the conclusion that the IC chip has a flaw. He is sending me a new one so I should have all that done soon. As for radios, I finally ran out of channels with my Futaba 9CAP. To utilize all the features of the T-Max system you need three channels to operate it. I had to break down and purchase an F-14 with all the bells and whistles. Nice radio, but I still like my 9CAP better. I looked into using a MCD switch 8 or 16 in the sub (I use one already for other ships so all I would have to do is purchase the module for the submarine) but this proved unpractical as the device is quite large and am finding out space really is at a premium in this hull. So, the F-14 seemed a natural alternative. I am posting this picture to show the problem I am having with the T-Max. If anyone else has this problem, try replacing the IC on the logic board.
Will post progress in the future.
Pete
03-11-2007, 08:12 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
The TMAX is a hybrid propotional control system. The unit can sence the last 15% or so of the ballast tanks, to allow you to fine trim your neutral buoyancy point and and also horizontally trim the sub on the fly, without having to resort to lead weight at the pond.
05-03-2007, 05:04 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Hi Guys,
Well, sorry it's been a while since my last post. I ran into a problem with the bow planes and decided I needed to take a break from the Typhoon and build something else in the meanwhile. I built a submersible from Lecma R/C called the Galathee. Pretty neat little sub. So, I am going to get busy with the Typhoon but have am asking for any advice you can give.
I broke down and purchased the Robbe F-14 for this submarine. Also, I installed the 12+2 decoder & expansion module to work the aux. functions (lights, operating periscope, operating bow planes, sonar ping and anything else I can cram into the inner space of the submarine.) Anyway, my problem is this. With the radio & expansion module as listed, I purchased a duo-switch from Robbe and wired the switch up as per the instructions. I have no operation of the planes and can get no operation of the bow servo. I have checked and double checked all the systems and can find no errors made in the wiring so I am at a loss right now. Has anyone else had this problem? I do have power going to the duo-switch yet I cannot make it do anything. A flip of the transmitter switch does absolutly nothing.
Also, on the wiring diagram it shows a + and - with a corresponding K1, K2, K3, & K4. Are these all in a row as per the wiring diagram or do the terminals jump around for some reason? I can find no markings on the terminals that indicate their names.
Other than that, I am ready to button it up and install all the electronics. I just need to get this solved before I can do it.
Again, any help you can provide would be very much appreciated,
Best regards,
Pete
Well, sorry it's been a while since my last post. I ran into a problem with the bow planes and decided I needed to take a break from the Typhoon and build something else in the meanwhile. I built a submersible from Lecma R/C called the Galathee. Pretty neat little sub. So, I am going to get busy with the Typhoon but have am asking for any advice you can give.
I broke down and purchased the Robbe F-14 for this submarine. Also, I installed the 12+2 decoder & expansion module to work the aux. functions (lights, operating periscope, operating bow planes, sonar ping and anything else I can cram into the inner space of the submarine.) Anyway, my problem is this. With the radio & expansion module as listed, I purchased a duo-switch from Robbe and wired the switch up as per the instructions. I have no operation of the planes and can get no operation of the bow servo. I have checked and double checked all the systems and can find no errors made in the wiring so I am at a loss right now. Has anyone else had this problem? I do have power going to the duo-switch yet I cannot make it do anything. A flip of the transmitter switch does absolutly nothing.
Also, on the wiring diagram it shows a + and - with a corresponding K1, K2, K3, & K4. Are these all in a row as per the wiring diagram or do the terminals jump around for some reason? I can find no markings on the terminals that indicate their names.
Other than that, I am ready to button it up and install all the electronics. I just need to get this solved before I can do it.
Again, any help you can provide would be very much appreciated,
Best regards,
Pete
05-03-2007, 07:13 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Here's a pic for the wiring for the dive plane from the manual; its probably the one you have. It shows the location for K1-4, You dont need a duoswitch to operate the planes, plug it straight to the decoder. Not only the outer two pins of the decoder are used. To test that you have wired up the dive plane correctly, just connect k1/2 (one at a time) to the negative of the main battery.
I take it you have the module with te 6 switches and 2 knobs, and you want to control the dive plane servo with the knob? That should work though I had mine on a slider via a separate channel. I use the FC-16 which is the f14 with a computer and setting up is a little different (I have to reverse the channel dedicated to the decoder on the tx and activate it on the compiter first) But if you have hooked up everything corretly you should get the servo controlled off the knob to work at the very least.[&o]
I take it you have the module with te 6 switches and 2 knobs, and you want to control the dive plane servo with the knob? That should work though I had mine on a slider via a separate channel. I use the FC-16 which is the f14 with a computer and setting up is a little different (I have to reverse the channel dedicated to the decoder on the tx and activate it on the compiter first) But if you have hooked up everything corretly you should get the servo controlled off the knob to work at the very least.[&o]
05-04-2007, 02:14 AM
#17
RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Pete, sound like your wiring is correct, I did it exactly as per instructions. As a matter of interest I actually did away with an rc channel via a y lead to the rear planes, when I dive the rear planes the front ones go to dive position also. Just an idea.
05-04-2007, 06:39 PM
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RE: Engel Typhoon submarine
Taxi & Gary,
Thank you both for the advice. Taxi, thanks for the drawing. The one that came from Engel doesn't include the decoder in it so that drawing you posted should be a BIG help in correcting the problem. Gary, thanks for the advice on connecting the dive planes together.
I will give it a go and see what happens.
Thanks again!
Pete
Thank you both for the advice. Taxi, thanks for the drawing. The one that came from Engel doesn't include the decoder in it so that drawing you posted should be a BIG help in correcting the problem. Gary, thanks for the advice on connecting the dive planes together.
I will give it a go and see what happens.
Thanks again!
Pete
