junglelord

Gas and RCABS side by side. Two nice WTC's for the Seaview, both are beautiful. The RCABS is a thicker walled cylinder and longer.
The gas WTC is 520 grams, the RCABS is 690 grams.


4900kv Brushless motor with a 6:1 gear reduction is the power unit for the RCABS with two large servos in the motor compartment of the RCABS for rudder and dive planes.


the gas system has two 280 brushed motors along with the snort pump and rx and three smaller servos in the motor compartment, dive planes, rudder, sail planes.


the ballast compartments of both units.



the battery compartments (RCABS has the air pump in this section as well and the rx in this section)


the RCABS has a Pump Jet

junglelord

Propulsion units side by side comparison


the PumpJet BTP is 89 grams
the two smaller pumpjets are 25 grams total
the rest of the fittings kit for the gas unit weighs a total of 100 grams.

junglelord

I will be able to video both units in action, side by side, some time in the near future.
Hope you liked the chance to see both units side by side.

coast219

Why not bash them together? Combine BD's BTP and RCABS-R with Merriman's snort into a hybrid system. You could also try a different ballast system altogether like a piston tank or water pump.

junglelord

No thanks.
RCABS needs no upgrades.

junglelord

When you consider the individuals who sell these two particular WTC, you find the polar opposite in service, politness and common courtesy.
Dave Welch is the one person you SHOULD do business with!
On top of that, to my own hands and eyes, his WTC is BETTER in EVERY respect.
So for me its easy to know where the rest of my money is going...which is straight to RCABS and Dave Welch.
So if you like being treated with respect and like a human being, then Dave Welch is your go to GENTLEMAN.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bwelch/

My own personal experience with the other seller, went from rude, to sour, to being followed and trolled, to private emails about skuttleing my build, which in my opinion was aggressive and over the top, and to this day they troll me. So while the unit he made is OK, its not as nice as the RCABS in any respect. As far as respect, I have none for that seller or his cut throat tactics concering a hobby and what is supposed to be a fun thing to do. They even went so far as to have me banned from another forum that they advertise in, because I made a thread about the Dave Welch Seaview build I am doing currently. They said I was "advertising"! They have been nothing but over the top rude and continue to be that way, over a YEAR from the first time they got their panties in a knot because I said that their DVD series would not play properly, which it does not and did not for others as well. So I got black balled for their mistakes. Incredible.

If you want to spend $400 and be treated like a clown, then you know where to spend your money.

caswell

Well! Anyone could see this coming. Talk about a set-up. You'd think you were going to get a side by side comparison of two cylinders, but its yet another lambasting of Nasty, Rude and Horrible Merriman and the Evil Caswell.

So, folks, here's the other side of the story. This guy was on our forum bashing out stuff like "hey dude - cool stuff" etc, day after day, causing folks to sign on to read a new post, only to find it was high noise and not much else. We were getting complaints. I asked him to tone it down, and he got snotty, reckoning he was the only guy keeping the forum going. My forum has a policy of deleting 'chatter' so the posts are intelligent and relevant. If you check his posts on RCgroups and subcommittee you'll find a pattern of prolific posting with very little actual content.

I think he is unemployed and spends all day on these forums, as he has little else to do. He's no expert on any subject, and most people see through all this. In fact, he used to post prolifically on our forum how much he liked Mr. Merriman and his work. Unfortunately, I deleted his 'chatter' ages ago so am unable to refer to it. Merriman warned me then this guy would 'turn' at the slightest provocation, as he fits a stereotype.

Yes, we've lodged the odd complaint against Dean, and posts have been deleted and it seems he's been banned here and there. (I think he actually quit Rcgroups after being scolded) I see he's been welcomed over at subpirates.com which seems a good place for him as all the posts are secret. He's been promoting RCABS and Dave Welch's experimenter kits as maybe he thinks this will ruin us? It won't. See the review of RCABS and experimenter's kits here. [ I wonder how many freebies he's received for these biased postings?

As for the disks he is STILL complaining about. Yes, we've had a few disks screw up, yes he may have had one, yes we've fixed them - but that was almost 18 months ago. As for all the other stuff he rants on about us almost daily somewhere or other, it's really quite pathetic. I think Dean has a problem because we really aren't interested in him, his so called builds, his business or anything else about him.

May I suggest, that instead of continually writing this nonsense about us all over the place, that Dean file a complaint about the company on the Better Business Bureau, or even take us to court if he thinks he's been swindled. They will arbitrate on his behalf and will probably resolve Mr. Ward's complaints and hopefully he can move on to doing something more constructive. He won't because he knows he has no case and we have an incredibly good rating with the BBB after almost 20 years of being in business. He won't because he actually enjoys posting this rubbish. He's the hurt and downtrodden victim of The Nasty Evil Empire. His life has purpose now.

Let's see now, is this my second or third post on this forum. It's exciting here. Will I get banned like Merriman? Probably. Do I care? Do I have to answer that!

junglelord

File a complaint and take you to court?
See how far out of line you are?

The way you treat people that buy your product is very clear.
The way you treated me was honestly stated.
If you feel that my interest in RC subs is worth banning me and trolling me, then that was your problem.
To think I could ruin a company, well that is far fetched.

I never put that much faith in what I say, but you seem to think I rule the forums.

I never said a bad word about the gas system.
I told the truth about the DVD and your attempts to skuttle my build, as you put it in that email.
Your lame excuse for the way you treat some one that buys two of your units, is not good business.

If you do not like others knowing how you act, then change your ways.
I for one can freely tell the truth about how you treated me.
If it makes a difference or not, I will never know.
But the truth is the truth.
You banned me and told me you would skuttle my build after I spent a lot of dough, and before i got it in the water.
The DVD's that would not play, had me asking questions on other forums, then their forum, so they banned me.
They refused to tell me how to gang the bow planes. The oh so famous bow planes, that if not installed will make it nose dive into eternity.
The big secret that banned me....what a crock.

I finally found the answer from a kind member on the other forum they banned me from.
I fail to see how my Dave Welch kit build is an attempt to kill your business.
I am allowed to show my build and its not anything but that.

I am also allowed to show the two cylinders side by side.
Its fine and fair in the free commerce. You hate any comparisons, because your afraid to come out second best.

I am allowed to tell people how you treated me, after I bought your stuff.

Your allowed to shameless badmouth me....for me telling the truth.
Good cover.

Dave Welch has only been polite and giving, and would never ban me for asking questions.
I think my decision to discuss how I was treated is fair.
If others get treated different, I would never know.
I only speak from personal experience.
If it influences how others spend their money, thats what personal reviews are all about.

If you want a good review, treat people like people, not cattle.
As to your friends attitude, the internet goggle search shows a man who is rude.
Its common knowledge, even you put pink panties on him, on your own forum for his demenor.
I do not need to apologize for asking questions, or for showing what my hard earned money bought me.

Your own personal attacks are adhomin and that is where you fail as a business man.

caswell

PLEASE report us to the BBB.

I'd love them to resolve this for you.

junglelord

I will not do business with you, so why should I report you?
Since your so eager to get reported, report yourself.

caswell

I REST MY CASE

coast219

You know, would be nice if we could see a side by side comparison between these 2 WTC in terms of the ff. ease of installation, speed, maneuverability, power consumption, performance (diving/surfacing) etc.

Justaddwata

My Feedback: (3)

Please keep discussions to topic of this thread and this forum.

junglelord

I would like to publicly thank Matt for his moderation.
I also would like everyone to know, I do this for fun.
I am on a pension, and pay for everything I have.
I am in no way affiliated with Dave Welch or any other RC submarine manufacture.
I get nothing for free and my threads are born out of the desire to show my own initial entry into this hobby.
Now back to the regularly schedule program.

I will show these two units in operation, side by side, in the water.
That is coming along with spring and the ice break up.

I am interested in the control surfaces that can be used on the Seaview and how they work at resisting the tendency for this submarine to nose dive.

I will use the bow planes on the gas unit, as Stringfly built it that way, and I bought it that way from Stringfly.
I will not use bow planes on the RCABS unit. This will be an interesting comparison, bow planes vs no bow planes.

But I found another person who built a Rick Testkey Seaview and I liked his idea. Dive planes on the nacelles.
I am therefore interested in making dive planes at the rear of the sub on the nacelles to see how much counter force they might provide.


I have two gas units and one RCABS unit. I will have three Seaviews.
So I have three builds to complete and the opportunity to try the rear fins on the third build.
I will also investigate how much more stabilization sailplanes afford.

Lastly all units will have a fixed vane in the nacelles to counter act the nose dive tendency.

I will also look at using a autolevel vs without to see how much is required to run this boat smooth.
I am interested in two different autolevel devices.
One is from mikes sub works
http://www.mikessubworks.com/page1.html
and the other one is from matt at precision pattern
http://precisionpattern.biz/subs/electronics.htm

The Seaview will always want to nose dive, its part of the geometry of the bow fins.
I am curious what it takes and what combinations contribute to a stable and level run.

I do know that speed will create downward force to a greater degree, no matter what we do.
So this boat is not a speed demon, but speed can be used to dive....but fast level runs may or maynot be possible.
Time and testing will tell.

PS fast is a relative term and to run scale faster is not better, so the concept of "fast" may not be a correct term in the first place.
Increased speed might be better. Hopefully I can guage the actual speed before said surfaces can correct for downward force.

I would like to build a small test tank that runs water front to back, that would be cool...like a wind tunnel.
I think that would be neat.

SNOWTANK

Maybe a tank where the water is running over the model and you add a food coloring dye. The dye will flow over the model and you will get a good idea how the water flows over the hull. Junglelord will you able to get underwater video of each of the seaview to see how they all work?

junglelord

My daughter has an underwater camara that may take video. Not sure on that.
I will take video, from the surface, that will be able to show a lot as the water is very clear where I live on the shores of the St Lawrence River.

As to a testing situation, I have access to a fast flowing stream.
That would work as a flow tank for static testing of forces and control surfaces.

The real question for me is what combinations are required for the best runs.

I have this natural curiosity about how we can stabilize the geometry of the bow.

Again no matter how much you correct for the bow, speed is still a limiting factor from what I am told.
I have no doubt that scale operation is possible, but a speed demon, this sub is not.

I do have a Robbe Seawolf and check out the speed of that hull design will allow!
PS he must have a afterstock brushless motor and a autolevel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Smi...eature=related

Mine will not go that fast without a change in motors and would need a autolevel.
I will get two autolevels this month or next month.
That will be fun. Then I can get full speed underwater with the stock 550 brushed motor.

coast219

One way of visualizing fluid flow would be to attach short strands of thin thread around the surface of the sub. This way could drive her pass the camera in the pool. Another way would be to use food dye. You can use a small syringe to inject dye out through holes drilled in the bow visualize the flow.

junglelord

The strands are a good idea. I of course have thought about food dye.
Thanks for the idea.

junglelord

I just wanted to show the extreme difference in bow designs b/t a fictional submarine and a truly functional design of the gato.

junglelord

Well I came to a decision about the bow planes.
I just do not like them.
Estethicly they are not nice, they may be functional, but not original.
I therefore put the CA to them.
My testing will be without bowplanes and will mimic the original Seaview.
If it nose dives, let her dive....she is a sub and ment to dive.

Instead of trying different control surfaces, I think I will make the three the same.
All will have sail planes and the orignal rudders and dive planes in the nacelles.
Just run the two units head to head.

The water is open, time to finish these builds.

Rogue Sub

Dean

the seaview will nose over once you get some speed on it. I have thought about using the sub bay hatch on a hinge so that it can act like a giant plane surface to counteract this effect. You wouldnt even be able to tell it is there when running. Food for thought.

coast219

Nuke that's a great tip.
My alternative would be to give those manta rays an aerofoil shape so that they develop lift thus countering the bow down attitude.

Speaking of the sub hatch, I was wondering, why not use it as a water intake?

junglelord

Actually Steve Neill has run his without the flyingsub bay door attached.
I was thinking of leaving the windows out for water flow.
I know the bow planes worked in assisting level runs.
I just thought they looked fugly and not being original, I decided to for-go bow or external rear fins.
I did however make a inquiry into a autolevel for this boat.
I would rather run the autolevel then bow fins, I could have had both, but the ganging of the bow planes
while it worked, was hard to equallaterize, front to back, side to side. I figured screw it. Go original or go home.
So I went to the CA and made her solid and original. It will always be limited by her own geometry.
But thats why I like it, the lines are cool.
LOL>

It will never go fast without diving.
I figure, its like a pimp vehicle, you drive it slow, and show it off.
LOL>

I got a Seawolf and a Gato for real performance!

greenman407

My Feedback: (1)

I am sorry that you have got a bad taste in your mouth when dealing with a vender. It can be most distressing. Dont let it slow you down though. Your doing great work. Keep it up!

junglelord

Naw, no bad taste, I just move on. Their equipment is fine. Just because I like the RCABS better, does not make it "better"
The one thing that is "better" is the respect levels from other vendors.
I get nothing but respect from Dave Welch and thats all it takes to keep my business.
But it has been suggested that I work for Dave Welch. Nothing could be further from the truth. I work for no one.
Infact I have two of theirs and only one of his.

I got a picture of my three units, two gas and one rcabs.


They are all for Seaviews.
I am making one gas unit for my grandaughter.
I am keeping two for myself. One gas, one RCABS.

I am however open to offers on one gas unit.
PM me if interested.