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Open discussion on IR battling

Old 01-19-2011, 02:25 AM
  #1  
YHR
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Default Open discussion on IR battling

A simple question I have , is why hasn't anyone tried to do something about cannon ranges in IR battling. Seems to me if we could limit the range of the lightweights and increase the range of the heavyweights we would add a degree or realism that would enhance the over all game. Seems like it would be easy to do, and yet no one seems to be doing it. Why?

I quick look at some IR emitter Data sheets seems to confirm there are multiple emitters on the market that have different range capabilities. Also the current used to drive the emitter is almost in a direct relation to its output power. Why has no one gone down this road.

Would anyone be interested in 3 different emitter ranges to be used in tank battling. Heavy Medium and light?

If a person marketed these emitters would people want them?. I think it woud be more fun to have the range limitations instead of the current weight classes. Set all tanks to Medium and differentiate the hitting power based on the calibre of the gun. In extreme cases you could still have the heavy for the Tiger II's, but the fact of the matter is Tigers were taken out with one shot from a Firefly, so why do we continue to give this hugh advantage to the German heavies. I don't think it would be too hard to produce a IR emitter socket with interchangable emitters to allow people to have the functionality of firing different ballistics.

What do others think.?
Old 01-19-2011, 03:03 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

this is very good point to discuss... we are thinking in the same direction.
Old 01-19-2011, 03:34 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

I am thinking about doing some actually testing of this idea. Between different emitters and possible changes to the driving current, I would like to establish a base line that is repeatable

Try to get three emitters with ranges 10 meters, 20 meters and 30 meters, that were consistant and predictable.

I guy could then put the idea to practice, and see how it enhanced game play.

A Sherman Firefly could be dialed in light for weight class, but have the long distance emitter, making it equal to the Tigers for hitting power. Tiger could be diailed down to Medium wt class, and the Heavy class would be reserved for JagD, Tiger IIs.
Pz III's and 75mm Shermans could be given the short range emitters, and run as light weights.

T34s could be medium weight and Range as would 76mm Shermans

This would be more relaistic as you would have your Fireflies and Tigers snipping from the back with the other tanks battling for control up close.

I think it is an interesting concept and I would like to do some testing.

Dan
Old 01-19-2011, 05:14 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

I like the direction you are going. I am surprised that no one has tried to make the next generation of RC Tank electronics with functions like these. Not just Programmable sounds, but speeds, ranges and damage resistance. I guess it all boils down to $$$.

We have $50 phones with more computing power.
Old 01-19-2011, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

we are actually discussing such (may a slightly different but still) option that ElMod offers.
As one of our colleagues says, there is a programmable option in ElMod to make certain "damage" depending of how heavy your tank is.
Is this so?

In other words we can program that Tiger-I can be shot (dead) in 15 shots from the front, 10 shots from the side, 5 shots from the rear and VV KV-1 can be shot in 10 shots from the front, 5 shots from the side, 5 shots from the rear... just as the example.

Plaese specify if that is so and possible to be programmed?
Old 01-19-2011, 05:53 AM
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YHR
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

Well El Mod has an advanced feature with battle damage being more then just slowing down the tank, and they do have the one shot kill wildcard that can present itself. So progress has been made, but it is very slow. Guys in the Tamiya camp are very happy with what they got and there is no sustained drive to improve anything, especially if it means sending Tamiya electronics to the sideline.. This emitter idea could be made to work with the Tamiya system, and wouldn't require anyone to have to do an electronics modifications. You would just need to plug in a new emitter, so I see this as something that may have some success.
Old 01-19-2011, 06:02 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

You can do it by putting a resistor in line with the IR imitter.. But i have to say after bing in the NEAD club going on my second year... To tell you the truth with the way all the tanks work small medium and large to me i think every tank should just be set to the same setting like medium for 5 hits. reasion why i say this is because with the tanks no matter what size they are they all get hit the same way from a IR beam with the apple and there is no real advantages of having lets say a tiger 1 or a bulldog i see big tamiya panthers and king tigers that go much faster than the smaller tanks but yet they are able to take 9 hits when sombody else has a smaller tank and its way slower and they oly can get hit 3 times??? not to fair... The game would be much more fun if all tanks where equal because all the tanks do not work as the real ones ever did. and the target wether the tank be a large model or ahalf sized small model don't matter because the IR beam hit width works the same for if hitting a big tank or a small one... this is why it's fake and unfair to the guy's using the smaller tanks why should they get hit 3 times and be killed when there is no differance when trying to hit the small or big tank it's just as easy to aim and hit the small tanks due to the way the IR works so what's the point why even bother?
Old 01-19-2011, 06:13 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

I agree with Shenloco's observations.


Rather than gun range restrictions, vehicle speed restrictions may be better. Light should be faster than medium, medium faster than heavy. The more protection you have, the slower you go.

And I am not so sure that a higher rate of fire is an even trade off for less protection. It does not seem to be much of an advantage when playing "Shoot and Scoot". Speed on the other hand is a huge advantage and a better trade off.
Old 01-19-2011, 06:16 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

That is kind of my feeling as well. That is why I don't think the Heng Long system with the five hits and you are out fact, is such a bad deal. I see KT's scurrying around and making direction changes that would make a Ferrari envious and yet they have this hugh advantage of nine hits.

Speed and firing range would be a big leap forward in game play.

I will get toasted at Danville because all my tanks are geared low, run slow, and have the turret rotation speed reduced as well. Not good IR battling tanks with the current game play.
Old 01-19-2011, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

Well we set our tanks to 9 hits all + we prohibited to interfere into tuurret rotation system.

But what we noticed - after 3 hits all HL tanks are moving not slowly BUT VERY SLOW, even slower slowly!
There fore Tamiya brothers do have advantage in front of HL tanks.
Old 01-19-2011, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

way i see it is like this the tamiya system is flawed it's not realistic at all.

small tanks have no advantages at all they get hit just as easy as hitting a bigger target larger tanks because the IR works the same for big or small tanks.
If tamiyas system worked correctly the small tanks should be harder to aim at and the ir window should be smaller making them much harder to aim at and hit because they are smaller. but because it don't work like this that's why tamiyas system is fake and unfair.

Also i noticed most all the time the large 9 hit tanks always end up winning most all the time.

and the bigger tanks are most all the time faster i see the big tamiya tanks fly they are fast as heck!

I bet my life if all the clubs started setting there tanks to all the same size the battles would end diferently alot more and it would make things more fun and fair... these tanks just don't work like real and and it's kind of dumb to even restrict IR capabilities due to tank size when nothing works diferently but your tanks smaller so it gets killed in 3 hits?
Old 01-19-2011, 06:51 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling


ORIGINAL: HAL_HUSKER

Well we set our tanks to 9 hits all.
But what we noticed - after 3 hits all HL tanks are moving not slowly BUT VERY SLOW, even slower slowly!
There fore Tamiya brothers do have advantage in front of HL tanks.
Phil at rc tank wars is gong to have a chip upgrade for the DBU to make the HL work like the tamiyas.
Old 01-19-2011, 06:55 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling


ORIGINAL: shenlonco

Also i noticed most all the time the large 9 hit tanks always end up winning most all the time. and the bigger tanks are most all the time faster i see the big tamiya tanks fly they are fast as heck!
My experience differs... it depends: example - having my Sherman set up for 5 shots -quite an opponent to KingTiger (5 sec reloading allows me tomake2-3 shots while KTwaits its reload.
Old 01-19-2011, 07:21 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

Interesting conversation.
IMHO, the technology is more than capable of it, look at the MILES IR laser tag system which has a heck of a lot of parameters (individual scoring, reload times, health, armor, reload delay, burst modes, respawn, game timer, game types, etc).

Part of the problem is that we're trying to simulate hardware restrictions (big gun = big tank = slow tank = requires lots of armor protection = slower tank) in software, but then running totally unrealistic hardware instead.

The other problem is that some people want a uber-realistic simulation, and some people want a video game style play, with lots of people somewhere in the middle. Makes it very hard to determine a middle ground that will make people happy?

D.
Old 01-19-2011, 07:26 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

Very good thread and a lot of viable ideas, however until the mindset changes and shifts into realism mode, I don't see this happening. Tanks should be geared to reflect the true speed and maneuverability of a particular tank. Turret traverse speed and range of a particular gun are just as important to realism. A KT and T-34 or Pz III slugging it out at the same distance is totally unrealistic. A Tiger, KT or Super Pershing should be able to sit back and pick off enemy tanks from long range and let the lighter Pz III, T-34 or Shermans maneuver and get close to get an effective shot. From what I have seen, IR "tankers" want a KT that can roll across the battlefield at totally unrealistic speeds, do a 90 degree turn, slam immediately into reverse and fire on the move, hitting 1 or 2 tanks without slowing down. A realistic setup as your idea whould result in everyone running KTs or bigger.

Similar ideas have been brought up before, and I have always advocated a two man tank, or tanks working as a team with vision limited to ground level. (As opposed to peeking over hills and buildings to locate the enemy and sneak in behind him.) This would bring much more realism and require the implementaion of actual tank tactics. Ie; attacking a Tiger would require 2 or 3 Shermans or lighter gunned tanks working as a team to take it out.....considering of course, the main guns were limited to the actual capabilities. The tank's flank should reduced to a much lower protection rate, which would cut back tanks running across the battlefield with the gun traversed over the side, bouncing off trees and dirt mounds and firing on the move.

I got wiped out at Danville with my Super Pershing, because I ran it like a tank and picked off enemy tanks at a distance with accurate fire as it was intended to do, but then I couldn't move without being picked off by a gang of tanks.

A realistic setup would make for a much better IR system but then, the tanks also have to be operated in a manner consistant with the possibilities of the actual tank being represented. Maybe someday, but the sports car operation midset must be divorced from tank operation. Gun limitations, speed reduction, armor protection and battlefield vision all have be implimented.
Old 01-19-2011, 07:38 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

ORIGINAL: HAL_HUSKER


ORIGINAL: shenlonco

Also i noticed most all the time the large 9 hit tanks always end up winning most all the time. and the bigger tanks are most all the time faster i see the big tamiya tanks fly they are fast as heck!
My experience differs... it depends: example - having my Sherman set up for 5 shots - quite an opponent to KingTiger (5 sec reloading allows me to make 2-3 shots while KT waits its reload.
Yea that's not so easy to do because in our club and probably most clubs guy's hide then poke out and shoot and go back into hiding so that's why to me it don't matter how long it takes to reload because you can't shoot something that's hidden so it don't matter your fire rate at all if it's 3 seconds or 9.

Way i see it since the tanks are the iR is fake and non realistic set all tanks to the same # and it will even things up and make for better battles.
Old 01-19-2011, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

See link here first

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg96wUmqmV4&feature=player_embedded



    Old 01-19-2011, 10:22 AM
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    hulu
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    Actually, There is a kind of IR battle system can do that,
    Using the IR battle management system (a tv remote controller). you can set

    1) loading time
    2) how many rounds tank carries <- I don't know another IR battle system has this function.
    3) Sensitive of IR system, you can use that to set the fire range..
    4) Hit times, you can set how many hits can destroy or damage the tank.
    5) Tamiya Compatibility

    If using it indoor, the max fire range is 30M !
    I installedit in my tiger I and tested with my DBC/DBU system. It works perfect!.

    Old 01-19-2011, 10:26 AM
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    Fireman Tim
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    Yea that's not so easy to do because in our club and probably most clubs guy's hide then poke out and shoot and go back into hiding so that's why to me it don't matter how long it takes to reload because you can't shoot something that's hidden so it don't matter your fire rate at all if it's 3 seconds or 9.

    Way i see it since the tanks are the iR is fake and non realistic set all tanks to the same # and it will even things up and make for better battles.
    Agreed. If things are to be some what fair using the current system, everyone needs to be set to the same level of protection and reload times. If a club decides to keep the weight classes, I still think the solution is some sort of speed regulator to set your tanks to fast, medium or slow depending on what your weight class.
    Old 01-19-2011, 10:49 AM
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    OK, here's my tupence.

    Most later German tanks were faster than a Sherman off road, and most as fast if not faster than a Pershing, said Pershing being issued in penny packets in essence, due to their better suspension systems and wider tracks. My opinion is to do an off road speed chart for the various tanks, and use that as the max speed the tanks can have. Said chart is already available, by the by. T 34 was very good off road, but by late '43 he was no longer the gadfly of the Ost Front.

    Emitters with different ranges are also viable, if they are reliable. Also, has anyone thought of filters to go on the apple? Like it or not, the Tamiya IR system is the standard of our hobby, so that's what we need to work on. If a filter can be developed at a reasonable price and easy installation, then we can basically enable each tank type to be 'armoured' on the front, sides, and back as needed.

    As far as the spin turns and 'shoot and scoot' possible in the existing scenario, a Turnigy chip fixes that problem, at least in Tamiyas. As far as popping out and shooting, then popping back under cover, it happens in real life.

    What seems to have been forgotten by a lot of tankers is it's team work and practice, practice, practice. Just sending a 4 tank team out on the field without any idea of mutual support and team work is a disaster waiting to happen. Get together, lads, and practice! And in between battles, you must to PM on your tank. Change the battery, check all track pins, road wheels, drive sprockets and idlers for problems. Make sure your turret rotation and elevation systems work well. Same thing the real ones do.

    Now, we also have to consider IFA, in other words Invulnerable Front Armor. There is no recorded penetration of a Jagdtiger front armor on the battlefield. nor an honest penetration of a King Tiger from the front. Yes, I've seen the photos of the one KT with a hole in the front turret plate, but from my hands on experience it looks suspicious. That being said. I wasn't there and have of course not seen every KT or JT lost on the field. However, the JT at least should be IFA. Now, for a modicum of fairness on the field of honor, the team with a JT with IFA should be reduced to 3 tanks instead of the usual 4. In actual fact, give me two good supports for my JT, and you will not have a good day.

    So, bottom line, I agree with the variable range emitter thoughts, and suggest some work on some kind of filter for the apple. Perhaps something as simple as various mesh diameters screen, as in window screen? It's a thought.
    Old 01-19-2011, 11:16 AM
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    HAL_HUSKER
     
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling



    Sev,
    filters could a good idea. We need to investigate this and study the case.

    Old 01-19-2011, 11:20 AM
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    wright 971
     
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    I Have had a battle with a Jagdtiger with no sensor at the front ,it was hard to kill ,it had standard tamiya gears and Tamiya DMD/mf units with sensors hidden around the rest of the tank One each side and one at the rear,because there is no mommentum on the Tamiya set up couldnt get round it fast enough it could do spin turns.
           I have a Tamiya Pershing which has a Turnigy servo slow fitted it doess make it harder to drive but much more relaistic slower acceleration and dosnt stop when you think it will ,it runs for about 2 tank lengths from when you release the stick(banging the stick to reverse dosnt help much because of the Turngy ).
       Dont mind shoot and scoot but a Tiger blasting away from a stand still shouldnt leave a dragster behind,they were very hard to get going and stop its Physics get 70 tons to move takes alot of power getting it to stop from top speed Say 24mph also takes time.
       All Tamiyas should have a Turngy servo slow fitted this would then at least stop spin turns from a stand still or at least slow them(you can do them while moving). 

      regards pete

     P.s Wasnt there a King Tiger knocked out by a Super Pershing
    Old 01-19-2011, 11:32 AM
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    To answer your question on the KT knocked out by the Super Pershing, to the best of my knowledge, no.
    But then you have to understand that roughly 90% of the Panthers were ID'd as Kings, and a ton of P4's ID'd as Tiger 1's Go figure.
    Old 01-19-2011, 12:29 PM
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    This debate has been discussed for some ten years now with varying camps of thought.

    The basic divide is between those who enjoy realistic tank battles and those that enjoy 'lazer tag' style battles.

    Both are extremely different in unspoken rules and gentleman's rules.

    The realistic camp tends to tone down (limit) the battle system technology to better represent historical accuracy, whereas the lazer tag camp will tends to exploit the battle systems weaknesses to gain a win.

    There was a major organization that attemped to reign in the best of these aspects but could not achieve ultimate consensus for use as a 'international' battle standard. This was ultimately left to the club level where custom rules (and custom electronics) could be used.
    Old 01-19-2011, 12:47 PM
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    Default RE: Open discussion on IR battling

    YHR, I often wondered about range as well. However, due to the size limitations of some of these battlefields, range would probably be irrelevant unless you really shrink the range options quite a bit. At our DAK field for instance, I'm guessing a light gun like a 20mm, 37mm, etc. would still be within it's effect range firing from one side of the field to the other.

    Dave

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