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Germany and France to produce Europe's next "super tank"?

Old 09-04-2014, 03:35 PM
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Tanque
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Default Germany and France to produce Europe's next "super tank"?

"Over in Europe, the renewed relevance of main battle tanks to modern warfare has spurred two of the continent's bigger rivals -- Germany's Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, or KMW, and Nexter Systems of France -- to contemplate a merger. Their goal: To take the best parts of KMW's Leopard 2 main battle tank, marry them to the advantages of Nexter's Leclerc, and produce Europe's next super-tank."

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...cs-new-ch.aspx


France and Germany making a tank together... "well shut my mouth and call me a blue nosed gopher!"

Jerry

Last edited by Tanque; 09-04-2014 at 04:26 PM.
Old 09-04-2014, 08:21 PM
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CountChocula
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Can you even imagine what this collaboration would mean? Talk about the worlds best gearbox ever made. The Germans will contribute the forward gears while the French the reverse! LOL

Boo... I know cheap shot... It was right there and I took it! Mod remove if necessary! Ha

Truthfully, I am curious as to what they'll come up with.

Dave
Old 09-05-2014, 03:24 AM
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What are they going call it, the Versailles?

Will it be a big slow moving beast that can be outflanked through Belgium?

Or will it be 'lightning' fast but always rolling over itself.
Old 09-05-2014, 04:01 AM
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Interesting, says government owned company would have to be privatized before merger, sounds like a long shot. What government would give up control of a defense contractor?

Would be nice to see German engineering, perhaps with a French autoloader like the Russians have.
Old 09-05-2014, 08:46 AM
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Given the way most European join efforts have gone, I'd predict that they will spend 10 years arguing over the spec and then each country will go away build their own design
Old 09-05-2014, 08:55 AM
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"To take the best parts of KMW's Leopard 2 main battle tank, marry them to the advantages of Nexter's Leclerc,"

Leclerc's advantages ?????

I don't know much about this tank but a quick look on wiki the only advantage I can see is that it is lighter, (though I'm not sure less armour is an advantage as they seem to have the same top speed.)

It also says the Leclerc is the most expensive tank in history.

So we're looking at an very expensive Leopard 3 built in France.
Old 09-05-2014, 09:12 AM
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or a complete sack of bull crap - give that the source of this nonsense is a Motley Fool article...
Old 09-05-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ex_Pat_Tanker View Post
or a complete sack of bull crap - give that the source of this nonsense is a Motley Fool article...

Wall Street Journal?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/nexte...rge-1404238891

How About KMW's own site??

http://www.kmweg.com/fileadmin/user_...1072014_EN.pdf

I doubt these are all nonsense??

Jerry
Old 09-05-2014, 10:54 PM
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Thanks Tanque for the info.
Sorry to read pathetic replies that try to be humorous ? The anti-french thing about surrendering is becoming the sign of lack of originality and historical knowledge. Firstly because...well...I think we all understood France lost the battle against the German forces in 1940 due to the stupidity of a whole generation of military chiefs (think about "la drôle de guerre") and secondly because it is forgetting what the french army did before this terrible defeat (and it hurts me a lot to read Americans joking about that - not to just mock but to really harm a country - when you know what France did to you in the 18th century. Without your help in 1944 we would speak German but without ours, you'd sing God save the Queen and drink tea at 5PM).
I think a little more respect would be appropriate for the french people regarding our common history, respect I always have for your country and your people. I would never let a stupid french insult you on this board talking about Nam or Iraq without reacting and telling history is much more complicate than it appears.

Last edited by Elefant; 09-05-2014 at 11:00 PM.
Old 09-05-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Ex_Pat_Tanker View Post
Given the way most European join efforts have gone, I'd predict that they will spend 10 years arguing over the spec and then each country will go away build their own design
Even if it is pessimistic, it is a very lucid analysis. (Remember the joint project of the 70s before the Leo and AMX30).
Old 09-05-2014, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Wozwasnt View Post
Leclerc's advantages ?????

I don't know much about this tank...
speed
small size
lightness
firing accuracy
finally reliable now
rate of fire

Not bad for a silly french thing.
Old 09-05-2014, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Elefant View Post
Even if it is pessimistic, it is a very lucid analysis. (Remember the joint project of the 70s before the Leo and AMX30).
I remember seeing film of the trials of the MBT 70. Would have been impressive in its day had it been completed.

The french have been quite innovative over the years with military equipments ( we'll overlook the Chauchat for a moment! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7QootpiLPg ).
The Char B1 was a very robust heavily armored tank of its day and with the 8mm Lebel cartridge the French were among the first to introduce smokeless powder in a military arm in the late 1800s.

The smokeless Lebel created an absolute uproar in European military circles - it caused Austria to suddenly stop production and distribution of their Mannlicher- Steyr model
1886 rifle shortly after its introduction ( one reason why original 1886 rifles in 11.15x 58 Werndl as issued to the Austrian army are so rare ) recalling them to be rather hastily
re-chanbered to a semi smokeless 8mm Steyr cartridge.

Jerry
Old 09-06-2014, 12:35 AM
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You noticed that the 2 articles that you linked to make no mention of a new tank, right? While I don't doubt they will have to merge, the Motley Fool article suggesting that a new tank is in the offing is just plain silly - its the equivalent of them saying that when BAe bought GDLS, the US Govt would start buying Warrior in preference to the Bradley (which they probably did, knowing them...)
Old 09-06-2014, 02:03 AM
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Why is it a silly French thing?

Speed - About the same speed as the Leopard.
Small size - Ok it's smaller.
Lightness - Like I said less armour.
firing accuracy - most MBT's are pretty accurate
finally reliable now - Leopards been reliable for a while
rate of fire - Auto loaders need reloading.

So now we're looking at an very expensive smaller Leopard 3 built in France.

Sorry I wasn't being anti French I just think the Leopard is a far better tank. In fact if the Leopard had a kettle it would be the best tank in the world

Last edited by Wozwasnt; 09-06-2014 at 02:22 AM.
Old 09-06-2014, 03:55 AM
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Germany has about 18 months ago introduced the worlds most advanced tank the Leopard 2a7, if there is going to be a merger of countries then it will be a long term project
Old 09-06-2014, 06:40 AM
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Not that any of this matters to me, I just posted the original information as a curiosity, it will be interesting to see if the merger is a "merger of equals" as some US
companies' mergers were touted or if it's for one company to eclipse another as competition. At the end of the day some one or a small group of someones will
grow fatter over the merger; these things are never done for the "greater good".

As I have little interest in modern armor as a modelling subject the merged companies' technical offspring will likely not be very interesting either. I'm sure all these firms
will produce bigger badder thundering technologically amazing machines that can still be taken out by a portable missile system.

Motley Fool for those of you who don't know is an investment advice and independent analysis provider, actually well thought of. They will run articles like that one
above( as does the WSJ) to provide additional insight to making more sound investments. I can't say I've always appreciated the ridiculous name they use but when I was allowed to
do open investing their advice helped a lot....

Jerry

Last edited by Tanque; 09-06-2014 at 08:24 AM.
Old 09-06-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Elefant View Post
Thanks Tanque for the info.
Sorry to read pathetic replies that try to be humorous ? The anti-french thing about surrendering is becoming the sign of lack of originality and historical knowledge. Firstly because...well...I think we all understood France lost the battle against the German forces in 1940 due to the stupidity of a whole generation of military chiefs (think about "la drôle de guerre") and secondly because it is forgetting what the french army did before this terrible defeat (and it hurts me a lot to read Americans joking about that - not to just mock but to really harm a country - when you know what France did to you in the 18th century. Without your help in 1944 we would speak German but without ours, you'd sing God save the Queen and drink tea at 5PM).
I think a little more respect would be appropriate for the french people regarding our common history, respect I always have for your country and your people. I would never let a stupid french insult you on this board talking about Nam or Iraq without reacting and telling history is much more complicate than it appears.
Elefant you may be right to defend yourself from anti french comments but at the same time have no problem with the french colonialist anti English rhetoric, let’s be thankful that the hated English were there or americans would be talking french today, you also have a short memory in that it was the English who first came to the rescue of france both in WWI and WWII and even then we never asked you to sing “God save the Queen” again you show your own ignorance in times gone by English gentry drank tea at 3pm not 5.

By all means you have the right to defend your own country from insults but at the same time do not insult others.
.

Let’s get back to tanking.
Old 09-06-2014, 10:05 AM
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You missed completely my point dude.
I didn't insult anyone, do you know the proof by reduction to the absurd ?

Bonsoir.
Old 09-06-2014, 11:44 AM
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Rivetcounter

Excuse me. I believe it was the British, and not the English, that stood tall and together during these two world wars....... and with the assistance of many brave French resistance who lost their lives ensured there was somewhere left for the Americans to come over and fight the fight.......
Old 09-06-2014, 02:11 PM
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Je comprends mon ami.

Gorehound, no need for excuse you are correct in what you say it was as you say brave Scotsmen, Welshman the men of Northern Ireland, it was also our brave friends from France, Belgium, Holland, Poland not to mention the brave from the Nordic countries the diggers from Australia and New Zeland, our friends from Canada and America to name but a few who all stood shoulder to shoulder and yes there were a few English involved mainly to brew tea, no single country could have won without the assistance of the others to think otherwise would show delusions of grandeur.

Historically most of the countries above at some point have been at war with one another for one reason or other but in the last 100 years all have been allies, long may this alliance continue.
Old 09-06-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rivetcounter View Post
Je comprends mon ami.


Historically most of the countries above at some point have been at war with one another for one reason or other but in the last 100 years all have been allies, long may this alliance continue.
I'll drink to that! .....Albeit probably a glass of Veuve Clicquot.

Sorry, guys very few things beat a good French Champagne....

Jerry
[h=1][/h]
Old 09-06-2014, 06:52 PM
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I believe Europe in general has a good shot passing America in a great many areas. It would be interesting to know how many Americans actually work fro European businesses. Both my kids now work for French owned companies.
Old 09-06-2014, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncas View Post
I believe Europe in general has a good shot passing America in a great many areas..

Considering the way our elected 'leaders' are letting the country go to pot that's not going to be much of an accomplishment.
Old 09-06-2014, 11:09 PM
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Aren't we supposed to be talking about Tanks?





-gus
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Old 09-07-2014, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Augustus1967 View Post
Aren't we supposed to be talking about Tanks?





-gus
Yep...

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