cleong

I applaud you for that. Some guys have nothing but German tanks with flags on each of them, creeps me out a little.

tankme

The German Tamiya tanks in the catalog when I was 13 is what lead me to this hobby, but once I actually got into it the hobby the German tanks just didn't interest me much. It's kinda the same way with the Sherman. I have a Firefly and one Sherman, but I feel no need to fill out my line-up with Sherman variants like am with Russian T34 based vehicles. I wouldn't mind converting my Sherman to an FL10 version...

lposter

Abrams and Leopards - big cool looking tanks. Popular with kids for that reason.

If the majority of HL buyers are 25-40 why do they still include BB guns and track recoil on their tanks - two features directly aimed at kids?

I'd love to see global HL sales statistics but I doubt 25-40 year old Americans/Europeans are in the majority over BB shooting, track recoiling Asian kids.

P

Fsttanks

Maybe to you and I the BB gun is a non issue, but I hear and see it very often both on this forum and others how new tank folks love this option because they do not intended to IR battle the tank.

Given that these tanks are not widely sold in retail/hobby stores and in fact the majority are sold online it would be a bit hard for a “kid” without a CC to buy one. Hence it is their 25-4O year old parents doing the choosing of tank and buying. Dads buy what they like and convince their “kid” it’s the tank for them. Oh and then the dad needs a tank to play with along side the kid. So yes it is not kids buying tanks.

lposter

iwont argue with the BB issue...perhaps you are correct and it is a selling point for hobbyists and collectors.

On the other point..... I have no idea how these toys are sold in China, Korea etc. Maybe they are available in toy stores. Just because they are not widely available in European/US toy stores does not mean one can say the same about the entire other half of the globe.

Maybe you are right and it is dads buying them for their kids.

But maybe Chinese/Asian/Japanese/Korean/Phillipino/Indonesian dads dont really care about cold war armor or US tanks or whatever and just buy what the kid wants - big and cool tanks with unrealistic barely working smoke, BB guns and a ridiculous recoil system.

Its a big mistake to assume that your experience of how tanks are bought and by whom is applicable to the rest of the planet. There is no reason at all to assume that the part of the globe that forms the lions share of HLs market follow the same patterns that the US or Europe does (and Im assuming that the pattern you describe is common when in fact it may not be at all).

The vast majority of tanks I see for sale on the second hand market in Europe on Craigslist type sites are common, unpainted, not modified Heng Long models that have broken down in some simple way (idler or whatever). These have obviously been bought by someone curious to see what a big RC tank looks like but who dont have a hobbyist interest as such. And I imagine a large part of HLs market is people like that. Who have no specific interest in RC tanks but buy one to try at an acceptable price point and who will go for a tank they recognise (Tiger, Pz III, Abrams or something) or one thats big and cool (Abrams, Tiger, KV2).

Heng Long sell (or at least used to) a wide range of toy types /cars, boats etc). One can assume fairly that tanks are a small part of their business. And that the western market is perhaps a smaller subsection of that subsection. And that the western market with an interest in cold war armor is perhaps another smaller subset of the that.

Similar arguments have been made as to the popularity of 1:10 ("Its not popular in the US so its not popular anywhere" even though it is popular in a number of countries), the acceptability of German prices ("German prices are ridiculous and they are loosing the US customer base which must be huge" even though its obvious the German market probably dwarfs the US market for the products they are selling at those prices) and that European dealers should have english websites or risk loosing a huge market (even though they obviously dont care).

The notion that HL is not making cold war NATO tanks or anyother type of tank due to some odd reason that can be called "politics" does not really hold water at all. I doubt HL cares about anything other than making money and shifting as much product as they can.

And when it all boils down....... if one has a burning desire to get hold of a cold war tank of some sort, then scratch build it, kitbash it, 3D print it or buy it from an artisan small run maker.

Sitting around waiting for HL or anyone else to make one at a cheap price and to a quality/accuracy you think is acceptable is never going to get you that tank.

p

herrmill

Never fear guys, there's some American armor just over the horizon from a new supplier that I caught a glimpse yesterday. Challenge is being able to stop laughing long enough to appreciate what it took in terms of the R&D that went into this venture coupled with their customer's acceptance to understand how something quite like this could appear on the market. Seeing it made me rethink about the KV-2 so much that it now looks downright perfect to me.

lposter

Regarding German armour and its overwhelming popularity, the ScaleHobbyist database is an interesting tools. The results of which are probably open to extrapolation to 1:16.

Looking at all manufacturers of kits and all scales, the number of WWII tank kits by country breaks down as:

USA (141)
Germany (464)
China (7)
France (18)
Italy (5)
Israel (1)
Canada (1)
Czechoslovakia (2)
Latin America (1)
Sweden (1)
Britain (78)
Japan (9)
Russia (254)
Spain (1)
Korea (2)
Australia (5)
New Zealand (1)
Finland (4)
Poland (2)
Other country... (7)

Germany overwhelms all other countries. Why that is can obviously be broken down into manufacturer side reasons and consumer reasons.

For the former I imagine the variety of tanks on the German side weighs heavily. In addition a manufacturer can produce a number of tanks based on one lower hull cutting costs significantly and in that case Germans will win out every time.

For the consumer, German tanks tend to be more interesting to model in relation to camouflage, variants of anyone tank (Pz IV as an example), German tanks tend to have more bits and bobs and modifications that allow a modeller to be individual in their model etc etc.

Looking at different periods for tanks, the number of kits of tanks available for WWI, WWII and Cold War are:

No era (4)
World War II (955)
Modern Era (219)
World War I (26)
Cold War (165)

WWII vastly exceeding all other peiods even when they are combined.

It would just seem that it makes sense for manufacturers to produce WWII German armor kits (economically) and they are extremely popular with modellers for a number of reasons - not all of them being related to some kind of fetishizing of German armor.

Not all 1:35 kits are made by Chinese companies. There are plenty of non-Chinese companies as well. And yet they too are producing German armor. So it doesnt support the notion that a Chinese company is ignoring US armor or anyother because of "politics".

For aeroplanes (all eras, all types, all manufacturers, all scales), the situation is reversed and the US become predominant.

USA (1183)
Germany (595)
China (103)
France (126)
Italy (81)
Israel (38)
Canada (37)
Vietnam (13)
NATO (5)
Belgium (25)

Britain (453)
Japan (214)
Russia (363)
Spain (40)
Korea (11)
Australia (43)
Middle Eastern (56)
New Zealand (7)
Austria (6)
Czechoslovakia (82)

Assuming China makes a lot of those kits, it would seem they are not averse to US plane kits and have forgotten their "politics"!

So that argument as to why Heng Long wont make cold war US armor is a non runner. They make what sells and what they make money from.

p

lposter

Out of interest, taking just tanks (not spgs etc) and WWII and all scales and countries and manufacturers, the number kits available for each tank type is as follows. I omitted any with just 2 kit available to shorten the list.

M4 Sherman 82
T-34 76
Panzer VI Tiger 65
Panzer IV 64
Panzer V Panther 52
Panzer VI King Ti.. 33
Panzer III 30
KV-1 26
StuG III 22
Churchill 21
JS-1/2/3 Stalin 21
M-3 Lee / Grant 20
Sd.Kfz 173 Jagdpa.. 18
T-26 17
M-3/5 Stuart 16
Panzer 38 15
Marder 13
Panzer II 13
Sd.Kfz 138/2 Hetzer 13
Sd.Kfz 186 Jagdti.. 13
BT-2/5/7 13
M-26 Pershing 12
M-10 Achilles 12
Panzer I 12
KV-2 10
T-28 10
Su-85 10
T-60 9
Sd.Kfz 184 Elefant 9
Su-122 8
Crusader 8
M-24 Chaffee 8
Matilda 8
Valentine 8
Panzer VIII Maus 7
StuG IV 7
T-35 7
Jagdpanzer IV 7
E-100 6
Panzer 35 6
su-100 6
M-36 Jackson 6
B1 Bis 5
Sd.Kfz 164 Nashorn 5
T-70/80 Light Tank 5
E-50/75 Standardp.. 4
Renault R35 4
Vickers Medium Tank 4
Hotchkiss H38/39 4
Kugelpanzer 4
Sherman Firefly 4
T-37 4
Cruiser Tank 3
M-18 Hellcat 3
Pz.Sfl IV Dicker .. 3
T-44 3
Toldi I/II/III 3
KV-122 3
Pz.Kpfw.V Panther.. 3
StuH 42 3
T-29 / T-34 Heavy 3
T-40 3
Type 94 3
Vickers Light Tank 3


And the top two tanks with respect to number of kits available are two non-German tanks. The Sherman being on top. Again reinforcingthe point that there does not seem to be some "political" bias away from US armor.

P

cleong

Was that laughing out of joy for a new manufacturer or laughing in amazements someone would invest money in something like RC tanks?

herrmill

Sort of but not quite. Its all that was done incorrectly on a new M3 Lee model I saw. All metal at that!

jarndice

And still no M60 or Centurion.

cleong

Your last two posts are very insightful - thank you.

In any case I think Haya will be releasing the Centurion soon, so get them while they're hot - it didn't seem like they made many Chieftains the last time round. DKLM/OKMO sells an M60 but it is far from being priced like a Heng Long.

lposter

Well if the 1:35 scale producers don't see much profit in making them, why would HL bother making ?

its hardly good business catering to a very small minority.

P

Ex_Pat_Tanker

I know some here will be incapable of accepting this, but The M60 and Cent are simply not 'iconic' tanks.

I bet most here would struggle to name a movie staring a Centurion tank, and we are supposed to be 'Tank Nerds'. Similarly, name me a film with an M47/48/60 in - go on, I'll wait...
(Hint: "Battle of the Bulge", "Patton" or other movies where they pretend to be panzers don't count...)

If you ask the average child playing World of Tanks what they like, the KV2 with its thick armour and 152mm 'Derp gun' will be far more likely to be named than some tier 10 medium tank that they will never have the patience or pocket money to grind their way up to. (Especially with the preponderance of paper tanks at the higher tiers to begin with)
The fact that Cobi will even sell you a TOG2 in brick form, simply because its a meme at this point, says it all...

Buckeye36

My Feedback: (3)

LOL, thats a good one.

Tanque

I've always been fascinated by these discussions. There are always some of us who feel our particular interest is the focal point of the known universe
and wonder why of why hasn't my personal favorite widget ever been made commercially...

No matter how many websites pop up around the subject of armor, how many specialty Facebook pages, forums and other groups form to
jaw over their hobby love of armor it will always take a back seat to aircraft of all kinds. I would bet that there are more diehard fans of the old Boeing
707 airliner than there are for the KV-2.

Given the make or break business decision to have to discontinue making a popular aircraft kit vs a popular tank kit you can imagine which will win out.

Armor in any scale has been and always will be a niche hobby regardless of how we see it. Test it. Next time you're at a party tell a stranger you build
RC aircraft- you'll probably get a nod. Tell a different stranger you build RC armor- I'll bet you get a quizzical look.

You've heard my personal AFV and armored car faves for years. Do I believe I'll ever see a commercially made model in a scale greater than
1/35 of any of them? No, because they would never sell in the number a large company would need them to to make it worthwhile. That's
reality. Why do you think Tamiya is scaling back their 1/16 line? Competition , increasing costs and shrinking markets tell them it doesn't make
business sense. Sad but true.

I doubt I'd buy a Kv-2 as I have the Tamiya kit in my pile and a 1/10 scale version in a closet...but kudos to them for doing it.

Jerry

Ex_Pat_Tanker

I'll just leave this link here: https://www.youtube.com/c/BohemianEa...arch?query=kv2

RichJohnson

This is what some of us have speculated as to why Tamiya made the Sheridan because it’s popular in WOT.

Still, I would argue that the service life of the M60 makes it an iconic tank along with the Leo1 despite what some may think.

What I hear from many is why no US tanks other than the Abrams. So they buy the lame ass M41 which is the worst tank they make next to the pan tiger.
DKLM is kind of producing his m60. He made a small run a few years ago when I got mine.
he has resigned it to a V2 for his market locally with several changes I feel are bad, useless or unwanted for me. I have tried to buy two more V1 kits like I have but he doesn’t seem to want to go back and make them. It is a lot to put together that nice kit. I think he is making his current v2 as an intended semi RTR for his local market only.

I still argue the M60 would be an excellent selling tank as would the Leo1 or M48 if produced.
what sells right now is a result of the only products on the market.

Maybe Hooben will pick up the M60 if HL has no interest. They have made a nice looking Merkava, and early photos of its drive train are impressive, let’s hope it holds up well. Though that company really lacks customer service and spare parts totally.

Haya has proven they can do it though their Chiefton lacked some serious drive train robustness but it was a nice scale model, The Centurion comes with high hopes so maybe that’s what it takes, a dedicated smaller time mfr that is way more in touch with the hobby than the Chinese behemoth that makes what they want.

As for Tamiya, the writing was on the wall, cost and quality vs market share. They lost to henglong and taigen.
Their trannys are weak too. I keep blowing the pot metal and brass gears in my Sherman tranys and have had to upgrade to eto super trannys. I drive my taigen as hard or harder than my Tamiyas and have never damaged a v2 or v3 tranny.

I have a stock of tanks to build for a while, a few more Sherman’s and some other custom stuff and that Merkava if it ever shows up lol.
so I’m just gonna sit back and save my money for a few years I guess and if haya comes through with an m60 I’m gonna pull the trigger on a couple. But if HL made them it would be half the cost. I could an A2, an A1, a Magatch and a Sabra. And I know alot of people would want to do an M60A3 Rise so I’m sure DKlM or somebody would make a 3d printed accessory kit.
just too bad the tank is not out there yet.

tankme

Going back to the Tog, that is being released by Cobi because of World of Tanks - no doubt in my mind. I do play WOT and the KV-2 has made a name for itself there as the derp king (big HE shell for lots of damage) at Tier 6. That may be another reason for choosing it as the next release. I hadn't thought of that, but WOT is like 10 years old now and introduced a lot of people to tanks. The Sheridan has actually never really been popular in WOT that I've seen. You rarely see them in matches especially in the last 3 years now that the wheeled EBR 105 is the meta scout tank. I will applaud any new releases of tanks as it means the hobby is surviving even if it isn't the tank I want. Has anyone taken a serious look at Ludwigs M48 or built it? I think it looks like a solid build kit. https://www.ludwigs-hobby-seite.de/M48.html

Ex_Pat_Tanker

More than that, I think you can blame the youtuber I linked above for turning it into the 'meme machine' that it is

Michal_Kaczorowski

At least today we are not limited to HL. Hooben have a bad reputation but it makes tanks no one produce (T-55, Ferdinand and now Cromwell with Merkava on the horizon). But I wish they will follow the idea of slapping new turret on old chassis and will make 75mm and 76mm version of Sherman

herrmill

Speaking of Hooben's Cromwell, heard of the first major fail last week which was same as my Hetzer. Idler broke after a few minutes of play. Jeeze!

Assuming HEC is on - been delayed 20 days due to current Delta covid outbreak - I'll pick up the new KV-2 at the show & post some photos,

tankme

Hooben is offering a metal idler mount. It is in the drop down menu here: https://twinhorse-model.myshopify.co...40243994001579

herrmill

That is the exact same idler used in my Hetzer & the 3rd type of material used over past 2 years. Mine was 3DP PLA, he sent 3DP nylon as replacements & now offers what I presume is metal although it looks exactly like the nylon version reinforced with a metal pin. I'll give Feng credit... at least he's listening.

jarndice

I rather like the Hooben Tiger 1 late but before I spend my hard earned who will reveal it's shortcomings?