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A.I.M. a better way to battle modern Tamiya tanks

Old 06-29-2022, 08:04 PM
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RichJohnson
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Default A.I.M. a better way to battle modern Tamiya tanks

As many of you know, our San Diego club, 619th Tank Battalion hosts an annual all modern tank themed event every July. We have been trying different ideas to come up with a better way to battle modern tanks against each other than just 9 hits and 9 second reload times.
We have come up with A.I.M. and prepared the introduction to this style of IR battling.
Please bear with the long description, it was written for people that are newer in the hobby and not familiar with all the IR abilities as hobby veterans.

With the advent of new Cold War era and Modern 1/16 rc tanks over the last several years there has been sharp growth in the popularity of these tanks with new and old tank hobbyists. Many that battle rc tanks have noticed the established Tamiya rc tank battling protocols lack modern depth of realism for these tanks.
In order to facilitate more modern realism when IR battling Cold War and Modern tanks together, we have been experimenting and
developing a new concept which has come to be called Armor Invincibility - Modernor A.I.M. for short.

A.I.M. simply put was inspired by the Invulnerable Frontal Armor (I.F.A.) concept as used on some 1/16 WW2 rc assault / tank destroyers. The I.F.A. WW2 tank modifications are made to the IR receiver (typically blocking a front portion of the receiver) to make scoring frontal hits nearly impossible. This simulates heavier armor in
place of a turret on assault / tank destroyers. The I.F.A. concept was established to give these WW2 tanks an even footing against their turreted opponents.
A.I.M. does something similar for the Cold War / Modern tank, but goes further and is intended for battles that are dedicated to Cold War / Modern tanks. It is not intended for WW2 or mixed tank generation battles.

How does A.I.M. work? Let's use the Abrams and Leopard 2 tanks as two examples of modern tanks. With A.I.M. the IR receiver is not blocked like with the I.F.A. tanks, but is oriented so that the tank can not be easily hit from the direct front of the turret past 15-20ft (~5-6m). This orientation is commonly referred to as T.F.A.(Tamiya Frontal Armor). It uses a “twisted” or 45° IR receiver set up, it is not a new concept and is in use by a number of tank clubs. The effect for A.I.M. represents the advanced frontal armor of Modern tanks. It still allows for these tanks to receive hits from offset angles representing the more vulnerable side armor.

Along with the new IR receiver orientation, tanks will be set to the Tamiya “Light Tank” or equivalent battle setting of 3 seconds between shots and 3 hits to destroy. Testing shows this better represents the speed at which Cold War / Modern tanks like the Abrams and Leopard 2 can reload, visually acquire targets, range and fire accurately at an
adversary. The 3 hits to destroy also represents the far more lethal capability of modern anti-tank ammunition like depleted Uranium / Tungsten long rod penetrators or H.E.A.T. rounds.

How does A.I.M. work with Cold War era tanks like the Centurion, T72, T55 or Chieftain that do not have advanced “composite” type armor?
The change for this generation of tank to address this question is with the IR receiver orientation. With Cold War tanks the IR receiver remains in the traditional Tamiya orientation which allows hits to the front of the turret. This is to represent the traditional steel frontal armor of these tanks and its limited ability to defeat modern anti-tank ammunition. Cold War tanks will still retain the traditional angled “deflection” feature of the Tamiya IR receiver. This will allow for continued use of the common tactic of keeping the turret turned to 45 degrees of an opponent to “deflect” an incoming shot, but to fire the turret must be turned toward the opponent. This tactic, when used, reasonably represents the slightly slower targeting capabilities of Cold War vs Modern tanks.

What classifies as an A.I.M. Cold War tank? This will include, but not limited to, tanks that were in the prime of their operational service life between 1950 and 1985. Some examples would be the Centurion, M50/51, T55, M551, M60, T72, Leopard 1 and Chieftain.

A few notable exceptions, IF the Cold War tank is “modernized”, and represented by retrofitted electro optics sights and ERA (explosive reactive armor) or APS (active protective system) or passive protection system then the IR receiver can be “twisted” as with the modern tanks. This is a benefit added for the extra time and modeling work put into the tank.

What classifies as an A.I.M. Modern tank? This will include, but not limited to, tanks that were in the prime of their operational service life from 1985 to present day. Some examples would be Challenger, Leopard 2, Abrams, T90 and Type 10.

Taken in combination A.I.M. with its IR receiver orientations, faster firing rate and fewer hits to represent advancements in ammunition, creates a more modern feeling battle then with the typical Tamiya battle protocols. A.I.M. has proven faster, more fluid and requires different tactics. It elevates rc tank battling of Cold War and Modern tanks to the next level.



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Old 06-29-2022, 08:57 PM
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Henglong tanks using 6.0 and newer systems can participate in the AIM modern battles just as they have been integrated into the Tamiya type battles in Southern California. Henglong 6.0 quipped tanks only have a factory setting of 6 hits to knock out a tank. Following the Henglong 6.0 battle compliant rules a henglong tank operator will count to 6 to simulate and equal reload time to their hit count.
Where the AIM rules will change for Henglong 6.0 tanks will come to speed settings. In the average free for all battles of mixed generational tanks all Henglong 6.0 and newer equipped tanks must run low power to stay on an even footing with tanks that start fast and slow down as they get hit. The henglong is the same slow speed throughout battle so it starts off going slow but its slow speed is constant and remains faster than the tamiya type tanks as they take hits and slow down, this giving the henglong tank the advantage as the battle progresses.
During Modern AIM battles, Henglong 6.0 and newer equipped Modern Tanks will be allowed to operate on high speed power, while cold war and older tanks will remain using low power speed settings. The Modern Henglong 6.0 tank using a 360 LegoDEI apple will be balanced with the Tamiya type tanks using the 45deg oriented apples and light class settings.
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Old 06-30-2022, 11:57 PM
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In our club we noticed that the Tamiya Type 10 and Abrams's infrared behaviour differed from the other older tanks quite significantly, as they wouldn't take hits easily, nor would they be able to land a hit as easily.

I would describe it like this: We know that Tamiya's IR bulb lights up for around a second when firing, during that time, the fire code is sent out repeatedly. For the older DMD/MFU boards, it would appear they require fewer repetitions in order to count as a hit, and that is why fan shots were a thing.

When Tamiya released the Leopard 2A6 and it had to battle WW2 tanks as the sole modern FO tank, they had to think up a nerf for it, while letting it keep its scale speed (both tank and turret rotation). That nerf was its freezing behaviour upon getting hit. WW2 tanks do not suffer from this freezing.

With the Type 10 and Abrams, Tamiya did away with the freezing, but it seems they also programmed a fan ban into the board so it required more receptions of the fire code to count a hit. Similarly it appeared that Tamiya reduced the frequency of fire code repetitions when the IR bulb was on, so that these tanks couldn't just drive around at top speed fanning everyone.

The result is that the Type 10 and Abrams don't have the same gun performance as you'd normally expect. There was once when we had all Type 10 and Abrams on the field, and we set them all to light mode, in a similar concept to yours, reasoning that modern tanks reload so much faster and their shots are pretty lethal. We had a blast, because the game became very fast paced, yet it lasted quite some time because the shots would often not count. But it is a game more for young reflexes, and can be mechanically taxing on the tanks......
Old 07-01-2022, 05:07 AM
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Thats interesting because we have noticed that the tamiya abrams is a terrible battling tank. It would get hit very easily and knocked out quite fast and have a much more difficult time hitting other tanks. We supposed because it was much lower than most of the the rest of the tanks. The Sheridan on the other hand is a very leathal tank in IR combat.
Old 07-01-2022, 05:11 AM
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Here are the setup rules for the tanks in our modern battle
Armor Invincibility Modern (AIM)
Rules and Regulations

· All tanks are set to armor class LIGHT, 3 hits

· Tamiya, Clark, IBU, Elmod, DKTank etc
o Modern tanks, post 1980 run a 45deg twisted Tamiya apple or a LegoDEI 45deg apple
o Cold war or WWII tanks run a standard Tamiya apple or a 360deg LegoDEI apple.

· Henglong 6.0 tanks are default 6 hits and run a 360 LegoDEI apple
o Henglong 6.0 tanks require a 6 count by the tank commander after firing to reload and fire again
o Modern tanks are allowed to run in high power mode
o Cold war or WWII Tanks will run Low power mode.

We ask that you pre-program your Tank Control Board and test it before the day of the battle and have the proper apple to use as identified above. Reach out through social media to the club if you need assistance with this.
Old 07-01-2022, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cleong View Post
In our club we noticed that the Tamiya Type 10 and Abrams's infrared behaviour differed from the other older tanks quite significantly, as they wouldn't take hits easily, nor would they be able to land a hit as easily.

I would describe it like this: We know that Tamiya's IR bulb lights up for around a second when firing, during that time, the fire code is sent out repeatedly. For the older DMD/MFU boards, it would appear they require fewer repetitions in order to count as a hit, and that is why fan shots were a thing.

When Tamiya released the Leopard 2A6 and it had to battle WW2 tanks as the sole modern FO tank, they had to think up a nerf for it, while letting it keep its scale speed (both tank and turret rotation). That nerf was its freezing behaviour upon getting hit. WW2 tanks do not suffer from this freezing.

With the Type 10 and Abrams, Tamiya did away with the freezing, but it seems they also programmed a fan ban into the board so it required more receptions of the fire code to count a hit. Similarly it appeared that Tamiya reduced the frequency of fire code repetitions when the IR bulb was on, so that these tanks couldn't just drive around at top speed fanning everyone.

The result is that the Type 10 and Abrams don't have the same gun performance as you'd normally expect. There was once when we had all Type 10 and Abrams on the field, and we set them all to light mode, in a similar concept to yours, reasoning that modern tanks reload so much faster and their shots are pretty lethal. We had a blast, because the game became very fast paced, yet it lasted quite some time because the shots would often not count. But it is a game more for young reflexes, and can be mechanically taxing on the tanks......
With regards to the Tamiya Abrams and Type 10 not taking hits easily. That is completely the opposite of what we in three different clubs see (totaling least five Abrams and three Type 10s). Both are basically “sitting ducks” and very easy to hit in battle. So much so that myself and other refrain for using them much in mixed generation tank battles WW2 / modern as we would like.
Old 07-01-2022, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Fsttanks View Post
With regards to the Tamiya Abrams and Type 10 not taking hits easily. That is completely the opposite of what we in three different clubs see (totaling least five Abrams and three Type 10s). Both are basically “sitting ducks” and very easy to hit in battle. So much so that myself and other refrain for using them much in mixed generation tank battles WW2 / modern as we would like.
We've had our tanks all set up for Danville-style TFA so maybe that is one difference. While being "different" in characteristics, having tanks spanning the generations, I didn't find the Abrams or Type 10 being particularly disadvantageous to operate.
Old 07-01-2022, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cleong View Post
We've had our tanks all set up for Danville-style TFA so maybe that is one difference. While being "different" in characteristics, having tanks spanning the generations, I didn't find the Abrams or Type 10 being particularly disadvantageous to operate.
Sorry I was speaking about the “traditional” TBA orientation I should have clarified that. TFA seem to make the Abrams /Type 10 more on even footing with regards to taking hits and their ability to survive a battle when fight against other generations of tanks. We don’t see in battles the Abrams with TFA having any more advantage in mixed battles even when other tanks aren’t running TFA. But the local three clubs don’t generally run TFA and prefer the traditional TBA arrangements in all tanks and this means the Abrams and Type 10 are no match for even a basic Tamiya Sherman. AIM with isn’t TFA orientation is a breath of fresh air and long overdue option for themed modern battles we have. Using it has greatly improved the fun and participation at all levels but especially with new tanker that seem to favor modern tanks.




Old 07-06-2022, 02:19 AM
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Since I don't have a Battle System for any of my Tanks, I can only assume but based on some internal images of say a Tamiya Apple it appears that they cannot distinguish from which side a Tank was hit because the System uses only one IR Receiver for reading incoming IR Signals from all 4 sides using a 4-Sided Prism, correct? Wouldn't it make sense to develop a solution that a) uses a custom Apple with per side independent IR Receivers allowing for effects like...

Modern Era ( 120mm ) Shot against a Heavy Modern MBT:
  • 2-3 Shots against the Front
  • 1 Shot against the Sides
  • 1 Shot against the Rear
WWII Era Shot against Heavy Modern MBT:
  • Invulnerable against the Front
  • 2 Shots against the Sides
  • 1 Shot against the Rear
Autocannon ( like the Gepards 35mm Oerlikons ) against Heavy Modern MBT:
  • Invulnerable against the Front
  • 4 seconds against the Sides
  • 2 seconds against the Rear
and b) combines it with an accompanying Addon Board translating the directions and Shot Values to the stock Controller Boards ( Tamiya DMDs, etc... )
The most sensible solution would be to be able to program it via a future proof able config file to adjust weight categories but alternatively the use of easy-to-read jumpers may be just as good, I guess?

In order to proliferate such a solution, I'd argue for it to not only be sold in a single store rendering it unavailable down the road if it doesn't immediately catch on but also be made available via a redundant GitHub repository where people who didn't join the bandwagon today can later have these made for themselves via a service like PCBWay ( or some DIY prowess ) Just a thought.
Old 07-06-2022, 04:18 AM
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Manufacturers will never go for anything that complicated. Even in the aftermarket you'll be hard-pressed to find someone to make a board like that. The people who make the tanks like to keep things very simple. You have to remember that 95% of the tank Market is not serious modelers, it's just people buying a toy. To the manufacturers, that's what these are, toys. A system like you're talking about is way too complicated for the toy market.
Old 07-07-2022, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Durahl View Post
Since I don't have a Battle System for any of my Tanks, I can only assume but based on some internal images of say a Tamiya Apple it appears that they cannot distinguish from which side a Tank was hit because the System uses only one IR Receiver for reading incoming IR Signals from all 4 sides using a 4-Sided Prism, correct? Wouldn't it make sense to develop a solution that a) uses a custom Apple with per side independent IR Receivers allowing for effects like...

Modern Era ( 120mm ) Shot against a Heavy Modern MBT:
  • 2-3 Shots against the Front
  • 1 Shot against the Sides
  • 1 Shot against the Rear
WWII Era Shot against Heavy Modern MBT:
  • Invulnerable against the Front
  • 2 Shots against the Sides
  • 1 Shot against the Rear
Autocannon ( like the Gepards 35mm Oerlikons ) against Heavy Modern MBT:
  • Invulnerable against the Front
  • 4 seconds against the Sides
  • 2 seconds against the Rear
and b) combines it with an accompanying Addon Board translating the directions and Shot Values to the stock Controller Boards ( Tamiya DMDs, etc... )
The most sensible solution would be to be able to program it via a future proof able config file to adjust weight categories but alternatively the use of easy-to-read jumpers may be just as good, I guess?

In order to proliferate such a solution, I'd argue for it to not only be sold in a single store rendering it unavailable down the road if it doesn't immediately catch on but also be made available via a redundant GitHub repository where people who didn't join the bandwagon today can later have these made for themselves via a service like PCBWay ( or some DIY prowess ) Just a thought.
The guy who did that new MTCU board https://radindustries.wordpress.com/...m-olsens-mtcu/ has already an all in one system like that. I don't have his battle unit but it detects from where are you being hitted, what kind of ammo is hitting you, and what kind of armor you have, and the system calculates if it pierces you or not. I'd never be interested in attaching an extra board to tamiya DMD-MFUs.

And at the other hand, the open panzer schematics and code has always been free for downliading and self building your own. I am starting to make some gadgets with PCB way and so on, and it is easier than it might seem.

But still, sorry to say, I see no point in having such a realistic battle system when people keeps jackrabitting the tanks back and foward in battles.
Old 07-07-2022, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Rad_Schuhart View Post
.

But still, sorry to say, I see no point in having such a realistic battle system when people keeps jackrabitting the tanks back and foward in battles.
Exactly! Not that this behavior cant be overcome. Appropriate inertia, shifting delays, etc can all be programed in. Maybe clubs doing ir combat should give classes on how to drive a model tank so it acts like a real tank.

Maybe it is because I learned to drive on and for decades only drove standard, manual shift cars, but I love seeing and hearing my t-34 jerk and almost stop as it shifts up from its starting gear to second and then a smaller jerk as it shifts up again. All simulated by software, of course.

Of course it is very hard to program in the kind of situational flexibility a real human driver can provide, but good quality after market boards do pretty well.
Old 07-07-2022, 05:44 AM
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We'll have to see how this new board works out. Hopefully it will be around for a while but I won't be surprised if it's not. Remember the asp? That board would do everything you're talking about and you could also set it so that you couldn't take hits from friendly tanks. He also included that two shot kill code, making it the most advanced board I've ever worked with, but try to get one now. They're out of stock and I spoke to Kevin by email just about a month ago and he says he has no intention of making any more. That's really too bad, because that was pretty much my favorite board. I still have two of them and I won't part with them for anything. I plan to order one of the new boards and see how that works out, hopefully it will be as good as the asp was.
Old 07-07-2022, 07:12 AM
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[QUOTE=But still, sorry to say, I see no point in having such a realistic battle system when people keeps jackrabitting the tanks back and foward in battles. [/QUOTE]

I've always battled with the inertia setting on, even in battles where other people battle with their tank's inertia setting off. I have never found it to be a disadvantage in battling. I think it's more fun to drive my tank in a realistic manner, and I still score hits on the enemy tanks. In fact, my son was once the last man standing at a DAK battle, a win for our side, and he was battling with a stug with the inertia setting on. He even threw a track before he took out the last enemy tank.
Old 07-07-2022, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Crius View Post
We'll have to see how this new board works out. Hopefully it will be around for a while but I won't be surprised if it's not. Remember the asp? That board would do everything you're talking about and you could also set it so that you couldn't take hits from friendly tanks. He also included that two shot kill code, making it the most advanced board I've ever worked with, but try to get one now. They're out of stock and I spoke to Kevin by email just about a month ago and he says he has no intention of making any more. That's really too bad, because that was pretty much my favorite board. I still have two of them and I won't part with them for anything. I plan to order one of the new boards and see how that works out, hopefully it will be as good as the asp was.
This board is vastly superior to the ASP 2. Comparing them is not fair because there years in between, but for naming a few, this is where I see this MTCU is better:
User sounds, more, and user selectable (In ASP you trigger random sounds inside soundbanks )
You can play loads of sounds at the same time. For example with the ASP if you were playing a song, if you move the turret, the song stops.
Better speed and steering control, with more A for bigger motors.
More light outputs and a working brake light.
9 configureable servo outputs VS 1 non configureable.
Use of SBUS
Stronger smoke output. My ASP mosfet blew when using a hungry smoke generator.

And this is just naming a few. ASP Battle capabilities were (still are) excellent, but ASP does not have this angle recognition, meanwhile this MTCU detects impacts in 8 directions (I just took a look at the manual for confirming that) but ASP had some cooler things that I have never seen like you can see the battle info in an attached screen in your radio. It is also smaller and there was nothing near as good as it when it saw the light, and still I consider it much better than IBUs or Clarks.

Of course we never know what can happen with availability, if for example a chip gets discontinnued or if Kim gets tired of making them... so, if I have learnt something in the hobby, is if you are really interested in something, grab it as soon as you see it, tomorrow might be too late. I remember when the RC kubelwagen kits used to cost 40 Eur shipped. Sigh...

Pah co chu puk: Your son story sound's great, worth to be recorded like the last stug in the village, lol. This is a video that I'd happily see. As I have mentioned one brazilion times I never battle, but I believe this is because seeing king tigers jackrabitting and making the so called "Fan shot" is too much for my eyes.
Old 07-07-2022, 09:08 AM
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I wish my thread of a the new way to battle modern tanks that we are trying had not descended into a replica of the other two threads regarding newer tank control boards and what everybody wants out of them, that was why I started that other topic and Rad started his on the great review of a new product.
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Old 07-07-2022, 09:09 AM
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Glad to hear it has more features, and I do plan to try it, but like you said, availability is the question. With kevin, he made the first couple of runs with the ASP and then the pandemic hit and now he tells me that it's almost impossible to get boards made. Supply chain issues and Chip shortages, in addition to all the lockdowns they've had in China make things very difficult for people trying to make a new board. Who is actually producing this new board? I mean actually putting them together? If it's being made by the designer I can see him getting tired of chip shortages and labor issues real quick. But I'll try one, and if I like it, hopefully there will still be some available and I'll snatch up a few more.
Old 07-07-2022, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by RichJohnson View Post
I wish my thread of a the new way to battle modern tanks that we are trying had not descended into a replica of the other two threads regarding newer tank control boards and what everybody wants out of them, that was why I started that other topic and Rad started his on the great review of a new product.
Sorry if we derailed the thread!
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Old 07-31-2022, 07:30 PM
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Attending the first official A.I.M. protocol “Modern/Cold War” IR tank battle today with the San Diego Tank Club aka “619 Tank Battalion”. As excepted the battling required lots of maneuvering, firing at long ranges and team work. “619” had a good showing of tanks turn out as shown below. Definitely a fun time had by all!!








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Old 07-31-2022, 09:54 PM
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Good looking group of modern tanks there.
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Old 08-05-2022, 04:18 PM
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Thanks for posting suggested modern battle rules, sounds simple and logical

Will try that
Old Yesterday, 09:35 AM
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It was so much more fun battling modern tanks this way than mixing up with 9 hits and reload times.
the battles were fast and furious with hard battling one on one if both tanks were using AIM. I never got around to using my M60 but that would have been more of a challenge since it was a standard apple being a Cold War tank.
we learned having a wingman for an attack run was absolutely necessary in this event. When one on one engagements happened there was a lot of maneuvering at about 20-25 feet apart just trying to get the other guy to make a mistake so you could hit him.
Absolutely a ton of fun. We all look forward to doing this again so we will probably be doing Modern AIM battles once a quarter now.
Old Yesterday, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RichJohnson View Post
It was so much more fun battling modern tanks this way than mixing up with 9 hits and reload times.
the battles were fast and furious with hard battling one on one if both tanks were using AIM. I never got around to using my M60 but that would have been more of a challenge since it was a standard apple being a Cold War tank.
we learned having a wingman for an attack run was absolutely necessary in this event. When one on one engagements happened there was a lot of maneuvering at about 20-25 feet apart just trying to get the other guy to make a mistake so you could hit him.
Absolutely a ton of fun. We all look forward to doing this again so we will probably be doing Modern AIM battles once a quarter now.
You all have come up with a really nice system. Much more a simulation than the basic Tamiya rules, which have always struck me as an attempt to create a sport instead of a simulation.
The best part is that it requires very little modification of the tanks. Excellent work.

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