"Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
07-10-2008, 12:26 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
That Porsche King Tiger was one of the Tigers issued to 3.kop of the s.pz.abt. 503 in August 1944. That whole kompanie was bombed to extinction by Allied aircraft while on their way to the front, and none of those King Tigers saw any action.
I think it was only the 1.kop King Tigers, and the very early King Tigers of the Funklenk kompanie that saw any action in Normandy.
I think it was only the 1.kop King Tigers, and the very early King Tigers of the Funklenk kompanie that saw any action in Normandy.
07-10-2008, 12:39 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Hm, then the photo iformation is inaccurate I guess. I shall not use it.
Ah, did not know that. I guess the person who put the information on the web wasent sure himselfe. Not much on internet is so verry accurate it seems. I'm lucky I have a bunch of realy learned prople here to help me out
. Maybe the Panzer Lehr wanted more mobility? Tanks are big heavy and can't drive in all terrains. Maybe that's why they went for simple assault guns.
I think, almost certain, that I will pick s.Pz.Abt 503 Normandie 44. Eaven though the fact that they were wiped out. Then I'lll use the nice pictures Googly have posted. I shall give it a try with my brushes, looks damn hard but.. nothing is impossible.
A little offtopic question. When there is rc tank battle, do you guys pick a specific historical battle or a specific year? I thought that maybe my tanks would not fit in any battle?
Ah, did not know that. I guess the person who put the information on the web wasent sure himselfe. Not much on internet is so verry accurate it seems. I'm lucky I have a bunch of realy learned prople here to help me out
. Maybe the Panzer Lehr wanted more mobility? Tanks are big heavy and can't drive in all terrains. Maybe that's why they went for simple assault guns.I think, almost certain, that I will pick s.Pz.Abt 503 Normandie 44. Eaven though the fact that they were wiped out. Then I'lll use the nice pictures Googly have posted. I shall give it a try with my brushes, looks damn hard but.. nothing is impossible.
A little offtopic question. When there is rc tank battle, do you guys pick a specific historical battle or a specific year? I thought that maybe my tanks would not fit in any battle?
07-10-2008, 12:44 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
The reason for the variation of color schemes on German armor is that they were field applied. Different units had their favorite schemes and so on. It is entirely possible that someone painted an ambush scheme on theirs. Just because it is not in a book does not mean it never happened. Late in the war when tanks came in for a refit they sometimes got parts from earlier models. They made do with what they had. There is no way to ever truly document EXACTLY the paint shemes EVERY tank had during WWII. People have done a fine job with the available info but, by all means, it is not the end all for reference.
Just my $.02
Just my $.02
07-10-2008, 01:00 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
ORIGINAL: el65co
The reason for the variation of color schemes on German armor is that they were field applied. Different units had their favorite schemes and so on. It is entirely possible that someone painted an ambush scheme on theirs. Just because it is not in a book does not mean it never happened. Late in the war when tanks came in for a refit they sometimes got parts from earlier models. They made do with what they had. There is no way to ever truly document EXACTLY the paint shemes EVERY tank had during WWII. People have done a fine job with the available info but, by all means, it is not the end all for reference.
Just my $.02
The reason for the variation of color schemes on German armor is that they were field applied. Different units had their favorite schemes and so on. It is entirely possible that someone painted an ambush scheme on theirs. Just because it is not in a book does not mean it never happened. Late in the war when tanks came in for a refit they sometimes got parts from earlier models. They made do with what they had. There is no way to ever truly document EXACTLY the paint shemes EVERY tank had during WWII. People have done a fine job with the available info but, by all means, it is not the end all for reference.
Just my $.02
The fact of the matter is that the "Ambush" pattern camo are all factory-applied. No directives where ever issued to crews to repaint their tanks in this camo pattern on the field. And we all know how Germans are such sticklers for following orders. OKH were VERY VERY specific as to how they want their tanks painted. Especially late in the war.
Yes, tanks could have came back to the factories to be refitted with parts from earlier models...but none of the earlier models had the ambush pattern either, so it's a moot point. And I believe that the Tiger I production had already stopped when the ambush pattern was introduced.
And once again to clarify: No ambush camo was ever field-applied. All of those were factory-applied using stencils...or at least, the factory workers painting those tanks worked on a guide.
07-10-2008, 01:12 PM
#31
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Panzer Lehr operated 2 Tiger Is in 1945 for a short while. Funklenk 316 lost all 5 of those Porshce KTs in mid August '44. According to Trail of the Tigers they were all either abandoned or blown up by their crews. They did see action.
The 503rds Tiger IIs also saw action, a couple were destroyed by British forces(101,111,122), the rest by air attack or mechanical/terrain losses.
The 503rds Tiger IIs also saw action, a couple were destroyed by British forces(101,111,122), the rest by air attack or mechanical/terrain losses.
07-10-2008, 01:32 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Yep, that's why I said,
I should have made it clear when I said 1.kop, I meant the 1st kompanie of the s.pz.abt. 503, and the very early King Tigers were the first production runs of the King Tiger that belonged to the 316 Funklenk. 
The 3rd kompanie of the s.pz.abt. 503...their King Tigers did not saw any action at all. No combat was ever reported, only the losses they suffered from Allied fighter bombers, accidents, and break downs.
I think it was only the 1.kop King Tigers, and the very early King Tigers of the Funklenk kompanie that saw any action in Normandy.
The 3rd kompanie of the s.pz.abt. 503...their King Tigers did not saw any action at all. No combat was ever reported, only the losses they suffered from Allied fighter bombers, accidents, and break downs.
07-10-2008, 01:53 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
If you look at the variations in schemes you will see alot of different ways of application. I have some color photos of tanks at Aberdeen during and just after the war with some really weird paint jobs. All that to say, no one outside the factory EVER used a stencil? Don't you think someone might have copied it in the feild. I just find it hard to believe that people use words like "never" as it relates to history.
I guess the experts know more than I. I would paint it whatever you want. It's yours and who cares.
I guess the experts know more than I. I would paint it whatever you want. It's yours and who cares.
07-10-2008, 04:15 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
If you're painting your own tanks? I agree. Paint it to your heart's content. But if someone was asking for something to be as historically accurate as possible, saying things like, "Hey, it's possible!" is really not very helpful and all it does it helps propagate long-standing myths about German wartime camo.
It's hard enough looking for credible info about these things online and/or books, without wading through all the "what ifs" and "could be" theorized by many people over the years.
And why would Tiger crews would *want* to use a stencil to re-paint an overly elaborate camo pattern on the field? They barely had enough time to do much needed maintenance on their tanks, and you are saying they would spend their precious time painting dots while on the field?
If you look at many crew-applied camo of German tanks, you'd see the many of them are haphazardly done.
Outstanding claims like ambush camo on Tiger Is require outstanding proof as well. "could be" won't cut it. The funny thing is...think about it. If there really is a Tiger I with an ambush camo...we would have seen a photograph of one by now. Why? Because no tank crew would EVER paint their tanks in a way that would make theirs stand out compared to other tanks in their unit. That's a very dangerous thing to do. That kind of thing tends to single you out by the enemy. So if there's an ambush-camo'ed Tiger I, you can bet your money that other Tiger Is in their platoon would have that camo as well. But so far...nada.
Agreed. They have very many weird paint jobs. (And many of them are repainted by the people in Aberdeen..but I won't get into that) But are any of them Tiger Is with ambush camo?
But you're right though. Saying the word "never" with regards to history is kinda iffy. So I'll go your route and tell people that a german tank crew could have painted Mickey Mouse pattern all over their tank...I mean....that's possible, right? Who's to say that it isn't possible?
It's hard enough looking for credible info about these things online and/or books, without wading through all the "what ifs" and "could be" theorized by many people over the years.
And why would Tiger crews would *want* to use a stencil to re-paint an overly elaborate camo pattern on the field? They barely had enough time to do much needed maintenance on their tanks, and you are saying they would spend their precious time painting dots while on the field?
If you look at many crew-applied camo of German tanks, you'd see the many of them are haphazardly done.
Outstanding claims like ambush camo on Tiger Is require outstanding proof as well. "could be" won't cut it. The funny thing is...think about it. If there really is a Tiger I with an ambush camo...we would have seen a photograph of one by now. Why? Because no tank crew would EVER paint their tanks in a way that would make theirs stand out compared to other tanks in their unit. That's a very dangerous thing to do. That kind of thing tends to single you out by the enemy. So if there's an ambush-camo'ed Tiger I, you can bet your money that other Tiger Is in their platoon would have that camo as well. But so far...nada.
I have some color photos of tanks at Aberdeen during and just after the war with some really weird paint jobs.
But you're right though. Saying the word "never" with regards to history is kinda iffy. So I'll go your route and tell people that a german tank crew could have painted Mickey Mouse pattern all over their tank...I mean....that's possible, right? Who's to say that it isn't possible?
07-10-2008, 04:44 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
This subject realy turned in to a big discussion, don't want to make any mess out of it.
I agree with googly, I'm trying to make it as historical accurate as possible and in that case I prefer to stick to what has been and not may have been. Still I also agree el65co that there isent proof and pictures of everything so that leaves out some things. Maybe there was ambush on a Tiger, who knows.. and I guess we might never know for 100%. We can always speculate and discuss if it sounds reasonabel or not but never know for sure.
That gives me not much of a choise. I will not use any theroy and speculation when I build my tanks (no offense) I'll stick to the information that is documented. Thank you all, realy glad that you guys help me out with this
I agree with googly, I'm trying to make it as historical accurate as possible and in that case I prefer to stick to what has been and not may have been. Still I also agree el65co that there isent proof and pictures of everything so that leaves out some things. Maybe there was ambush on a Tiger, who knows.. and I guess we might never know for 100%. We can always speculate and discuss if it sounds reasonabel or not but never know for sure.
That gives me not much of a choise. I will not use any theroy and speculation when I build my tanks (no offense) I'll stick to the information that is documented. Thank you all, realy glad that you guys help me out with this
07-10-2008, 05:41 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
ORIGINAL: ManMachine
This subject realy turned in to a big discussion, don't want to make any mess out of it.
I agree with googly, I'm trying to make it as historical accurate as possible and in that case I prefer to stick to what has been and not may have been. Still I also agree el65co that there isent proof and pictures of everything so that leaves out some things. Maybe there was ambush on a Tiger, who knows.. and I guess we might never know for 100%. We can always speculate and discuss if it sounds reasonabel or not but never know for sure.
That gives me not much of a choise. I will not use any theroy and speculation when I build my tanks (no offense) I'll stick to the information that is documented. Thank you all, realy glad that you guys help me out with this
This subject realy turned in to a big discussion, don't want to make any mess out of it.
I agree with googly, I'm trying to make it as historical accurate as possible and in that case I prefer to stick to what has been and not may have been. Still I also agree el65co that there isent proof and pictures of everything so that leaves out some things. Maybe there was ambush on a Tiger, who knows.. and I guess we might never know for 100%. We can always speculate and discuss if it sounds reasonabel or not but never know for sure.
That gives me not much of a choise. I will not use any theroy and speculation when I build my tanks (no offense) I'll stick to the information that is documented. Thank you all, realy glad that you guys help me out with this
Now do the research and find the number of Tiger I Panzers taking part in the Battle of the Bulge and you will get a reasonable answer for the Western Front Tiger I.
With that said, I am with el65co, paint it your way, a late Tiger in Ardennes Ambush Pattern would look great.
Especially for a club battle field tank, if you copy paint it like a popular panzer photo/illustration or follow the kit instruction paint style tips, for sure 4 other similar tanks to yours will also show up on any given battle day!
John
07-10-2008, 08:34 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Thank's John, but I'll stick to the 503 in Normandy. Maybe you guys think it's a bit odd that I pick this "doomed" company.. but I will do it. I finaly found some pictures, made by someone, so I'm not sure if they are accurate but I will use it as a referense. Seems like I have to use unconfirmed information after all, guess I have no choise. I just hope it is close enough. Anyhow, it looks nice.
I will use this camoflage scheme on both tigers, I find it stange if they would have different camoflage in the same company. Please, correct me if you know better.
Here it goes:
I will use this camoflage scheme on both tigers, I find it stange if they would have different camoflage in the same company. Please, correct me if you know better.
Here it goes:
07-10-2008, 08:35 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
The ambush camo scheme was not a specialized camo pattern specifically designed for the Ardennes offensive. In fact, the very first King Tigers that I know that sported this distinct camo pattern was from the s.pz.abt. 503 (again!) when the whole battalion was issued 45 new King Tigers in September. Then they were transported to Hungary, and not in Belgium.
As seen here in this very famous propaganda film.
As to how many Tiger Is were in the Ardennes? The only known Tiger Is were from the Schwere Panzer-Kompanie Hummel, which was assimilated with the s.pz.abt. 506th, where it became the 4th kompanie. I'm not really sure just how many Tiger Is the 4th kompanie had, but if you go by the standard order of battle, they would at least have 14 Tiger Is. But in most likelihood, they would have less than that, since kompanie Hummel had been fighting in Holland, and they did suffered losses there as well.
As seen here in this very famous propaganda film.
As to how many Tiger Is were in the Ardennes? The only known Tiger Is were from the Schwere Panzer-Kompanie Hummel, which was assimilated with the s.pz.abt. 506th, where it became the 4th kompanie. I'm not really sure just how many Tiger Is the 4th kompanie had, but if you go by the standard order of battle, they would at least have 14 Tiger Is. But in most likelihood, they would have less than that, since kompanie Hummel had been fighting in Holland, and they did suffered losses there as well.
07-10-2008, 08:48 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
You've picked the best Tiger battalion out of all of them. It's a shame really, the the SS Tiger battalions get most of the fanfare. It was the highest scoring Tiger battalion, destroying more than 1,700 tanks and more than 2,000 guns. This battalion fought almost everywhere, except Italy and North Africa. And it also had the highest-scoring Tiger ace, Kurt Knispel. I'm doing his King Tiger, but since no photographic evidence of it can be found anywhere, I'm simply basing my camo pattern on other 1st kompanie that I do have photos of.
According to Schneider, those broad stripes on that particular King Tiger caused some heated discussions with the company commander.
According to Schneider, those broad stripes on that particular King Tiger caused some heated discussions with the company commander.
07-10-2008, 08:55 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Oh, that is some intresting information Thanks alot Googly!!
I'm looking forward to see your Tiger when it's done, it sure will give me some inspiration.
I'm dead tierd now, have been searching pictures and information about this whole day long. Time to catch som z's. Tomorrow (or rather later today hah!) I will start applying a plan how to paint the tank whith a pencil, if all goes well I hope to get started with the painting aswell
Thanks alot Googly!!I'm looking forward to see your Tiger when it's done, it sure will give me some inspiration.
I'm dead tierd now, have been searching pictures and information about this whole day long. Time to catch som z's. Tomorrow (or rather later today hah!) I will start applying a plan how to paint the tank whith a pencil, if all goes well I hope to get started with the painting aswell
07-10-2008, 09:02 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
The only pics I have of my "Knispel" Tiger II are these:
I just need to work on the gun cleaning rods...because I bought the wrong size again. [:@]
I just need to work on the gun cleaning rods...because I bought the wrong size again. [:@]
07-10-2008, 10:03 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
googlydoogly, I also have read all the Tiger books, but for "content".
Your wrong, as usual, and here is why, but nice Mato/Tamiya model though, make sure that the zimmerit does not catch fire and burn.
That is a b/w propaganda photo/newsreel film out take (you posted) used to show King Tigers shipping off to the Ardennes Offensive. That some KTs were train transported from various parts of Hungry/Germany for the Ardennes is true (the KTs went by rail to Hungry to put down a revolt, their primary purpose was still the Ardennes and to toss the Western Allies off the Continent).
The Germans hustled those KT bad boys all over the place by rail to plug breaks in lines and put out fires. That is why that camo ambush pattern was seen elsewhere too, none the less, the Ardennes ambush pattern was developed for some protection against Western Allied fighter/bombers for the Battle of the Bulge/Ardennes Offensive and to protect panzers on the march.
Google your own research and you will stumble on the "light and dark color pattern plus dot rational" and why the German color tech experts developed that pattern as a desperate means to avoid US and British fighter/bombers by placing armor under foliage and forest canopies and getting the vehicles to blend into the dark and lights and shadows in a forest or orchard by using paint instead of cut tree branches as they had used in France (not that helpful either).
The Eastern Front was mass tank duals and slaughter, the Western Front, was basically German tank slaughter by Allied air and artillery.
As to France, the style of tank warfare seen in Normandy differed from all previous WWII German tank combat. Why? The German forces faced an American/British enemy whose unlimited air superiority completely changed the way panzer divisions fought. It also forced the German tank commanders to develop completely new tactics for movement and combat, hence the development of the "different" 3 color paint pattern with dots as a small part of the new panzer tactics and combat solutions. Thus this paint pattern was a thoughtful technical solution to a big problem and not just some Sturmmann slapping paint on steel.
And my favorite Tiger lore passage: Himmler stating to Otto Carius at dinner, in the book "Tigers in the Mud", after he presented the Knights Cross to Carius, "Don't you think the tank is now obsolete?"
John
First tank image is my interpretation of the Ardennes Ambush Pattern/Dots and other Ardennes KTs and a Normandy KT (last image)
Your wrong, as usual, and here is why, but nice Mato/Tamiya model though, make sure that the zimmerit does not catch fire and burn.
That is a b/w propaganda photo/newsreel film out take (you posted) used to show King Tigers shipping off to the Ardennes Offensive. That some KTs were train transported from various parts of Hungry/Germany for the Ardennes is true (the KTs went by rail to Hungry to put down a revolt, their primary purpose was still the Ardennes and to toss the Western Allies off the Continent).
The Germans hustled those KT bad boys all over the place by rail to plug breaks in lines and put out fires. That is why that camo ambush pattern was seen elsewhere too, none the less, the Ardennes ambush pattern was developed for some protection against Western Allied fighter/bombers for the Battle of the Bulge/Ardennes Offensive and to protect panzers on the march.
Google your own research and you will stumble on the "light and dark color pattern plus dot rational" and why the German color tech experts developed that pattern as a desperate means to avoid US and British fighter/bombers by placing armor under foliage and forest canopies and getting the vehicles to blend into the dark and lights and shadows in a forest or orchard by using paint instead of cut tree branches as they had used in France (not that helpful either).
The Eastern Front was mass tank duals and slaughter, the Western Front, was basically German tank slaughter by Allied air and artillery.
As to France, the style of tank warfare seen in Normandy differed from all previous WWII German tank combat. Why? The German forces faced an American/British enemy whose unlimited air superiority completely changed the way panzer divisions fought. It also forced the German tank commanders to develop completely new tactics for movement and combat, hence the development of the "different" 3 color paint pattern with dots as a small part of the new panzer tactics and combat solutions. Thus this paint pattern was a thoughtful technical solution to a big problem and not just some Sturmmann slapping paint on steel.
And my favorite Tiger lore passage: Himmler stating to Otto Carius at dinner, in the book "Tigers in the Mud", after he presented the Knights Cross to Carius, "Don't you think the tank is now obsolete?"
John
First tank image is my interpretation of the Ardennes Ambush Pattern/Dots and other Ardennes KTs and a Normandy KT (last image)
07-10-2008, 10:59 PM
#43
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
In that week or so of fighting the 503rd did in Normandy they inflicted heavy casualties on the Allies. No less then 80 tanks fell to their guns.
Tiger I ambush pattern is like camouflaged or "Green" Tigers in North Africa. Now there's a controversy! How about red numbers? hehehe
Over time a lot of those myths/controversies have fallen and been cleared up as more photographs make it on the internet from private collections.
A 503 Tiger I and II would more then likely look like the plates posted earlier on the Normandy Front. Just take a look at BW photographs of the unit and look at the patterns.
Tiger I ambush pattern is like camouflaged or "Green" Tigers in North Africa. Now there's a controversy! How about red numbers? hehehe
Over time a lot of those myths/controversies have fallen and been cleared up as more photographs make it on the internet from private collections.
A 503 Tiger I and II would more then likely look like the plates posted earlier on the Normandy Front. Just take a look at BW photographs of the unit and look at the patterns.
07-10-2008, 11:28 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Um...you're kidding right? I think the famous propaganda film you are thinking about was the film of the S.SS.PZ.ABT. 501st that was driving through a town (forgot the name of the town).
The pic I showed was was from a film of the S.PZ.ABT. 503. That was when Von Rosen was inspecting his company of Tigers while riding Tiger 300. I believe Von Rosen is still alive, and would *love* to hear that apparently, he served in the Waffen SS and not the Heer.
And the 503 only went to Hungary to put down a revolt? You may want to re-read those books again. Because the armor battles in Hungary was some of the worst, some of the fiercest, and some of the most bloodiest battles of the war.
The ambush camo was just part of how German wartime camo evolved over time. Not because of one offensive. Did the Germans developed the ambush camo because of the experience they went through while fighting the allies and their massive air power? Most likely. But apparently, it's not really effective, (or maybe it's just time consuming?) since they change their painting directives only after a few months.
But to say that the ambush camo was purposely developed because of the Ardennes offensive really shows just how these myths start. Next thing you know, in a few years, people would be asking for the Ardennes camo pattern.
*Edit* And oh, that propaganda film I pictured was done in September 1944. "Ambush" King Tigers were already engaging Soviet tanks months before the Ardennes. And if the Germans really invented the ambush camo for the Ardennes offensive...you'll realize the error of your thinking.
The Allies haven't even conquered Belgium in September 1944, and you expect us to believe that the Germans are already planning the Ardennes offensive???? And they even made a special camo for it????? LOL
So yeah, you may want to re-read all those Tiger books again for "content"...because I think you missed a few chapters.
The pic I showed was was from a film of the S.PZ.ABT. 503. That was when Von Rosen was inspecting his company of Tigers while riding Tiger 300. I believe Von Rosen is still alive, and would *love* to hear that apparently, he served in the Waffen SS and not the Heer.
And the 503 only went to Hungary to put down a revolt? You may want to re-read those books again. Because the armor battles in Hungary was some of the worst, some of the fiercest, and some of the most bloodiest battles of the war.
The ambush camo was just part of how German wartime camo evolved over time. Not because of one offensive. Did the Germans developed the ambush camo because of the experience they went through while fighting the allies and their massive air power? Most likely. But apparently, it's not really effective, (or maybe it's just time consuming?) since they change their painting directives only after a few months.
But to say that the ambush camo was purposely developed because of the Ardennes offensive really shows just how these myths start. Next thing you know, in a few years, people would be asking for the Ardennes camo pattern.
*Edit* And oh, that propaganda film I pictured was done in September 1944. "Ambush" King Tigers were already engaging Soviet tanks months before the Ardennes. And if the Germans really invented the ambush camo for the Ardennes offensive...you'll realize the error of your thinking.
The Allies haven't even conquered Belgium in September 1944, and you expect us to believe that the Germans are already planning the Ardennes offensive???? And they even made a special camo for it????? LOL
So yeah, you may want to re-read all those Tiger books again for "content"...because I think you missed a few chapters.
07-11-2008, 12:57 AM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Your propaganda b/w photo, Page 175, per Tigers in Combat, Vol I, shows 503 crews/tanks at Camp Senne in training at Paderborn, Germany, Sept 1944. The newsreel film was later used for Ardennes propaganda in support of the offensive. The new "Ardennes" ambush pattern is on some of the tanks , 2nd and 3rd tanks.
Again do your own research and study the color theory behind tanks 2 and 3 in the line up. That dot pattern was developed in response to the tactic changes forced on the panzer corp from the change in fighting style in France (airplane against tank/artillery against tank) and then refined and painted on many Ardennes AFVs, to better hide their movements for the build up for the Ardennes Offensive.
Anyway for battle day TBU tanks, it is better to personalize the model, so a dozen clones are not represented on the same field, they have a different purpose than a historically accurate display case model tank.
I hope Von Rosen has more going on in is life than fooling around with rc toy tanks or you.
Enjoy, John
Again do your own research and study the color theory behind tanks 2 and 3 in the line up. That dot pattern was developed in response to the tactic changes forced on the panzer corp from the change in fighting style in France (airplane against tank/artillery against tank) and then refined and painted on many Ardennes AFVs, to better hide their movements for the build up for the Ardennes Offensive.
Anyway for battle day TBU tanks, it is better to personalize the model, so a dozen clones are not represented on the same field, they have a different purpose than a historically accurate display case model tank.
I hope Von Rosen has more going on in is life than fooling around with rc toy tanks or you.
Enjoy, John
07-11-2008, 01:02 AM
#46
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Nice KTs John, your ambush pattern is much more effective looking then the real thing. They used hard edges that really made them stand out. They had a post about this over at Missing-Lynx recently.
07-11-2008, 02:14 AM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Ah, so when you said this,
You were wrong? This was filmed in SEPTEMBER 1944. Show me proof that said that the 503rd surrendered these Tigers before being shipped to Hungary, then these Tigers waited somewhere for THREE months, (because according to you, these were shipped off to the Ardennes Offensive), while the 503 fought masses of Soviet armor formations with unknown King Tigers.
And again, why would you call them "Ardennes" pattern when these patterns were developed during the time when the Germans haven't even been pushed out of Northern France?
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...tid=157&page=2
There...apparently, the ambush camo was introduced in August 1944. So basically, the Germans were developing this pattern before August. When the German were still fighting in Normandy/France. True, it was based on their experiences in Normandy, but I don't know where you got the idea that this pattern were done specifically for the Ardennes offensive.
So I guess now we know how myths about German camo came to be. By some guy just theorizing the heck out of them.
I doubt he would care about toyish RC tanks, but many veterans appreciate a well-made, realistic-looking, historically accurate models of their war machines. And in most likelihood, he would care greatly about preserving the true history of his unit.
That is a b/w propaganda photo/newsreel film out take (you posted) used to show King Tigers shipping off to the Ardennes Offensive.
And again, why would you call them "Ardennes" pattern when these patterns were developed during the time when the Germans haven't even been pushed out of Northern France?
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...tid=157&page=2
There...apparently, the ambush camo was introduced in August 1944. So basically, the Germans were developing this pattern before August. When the German were still fighting in Normandy/France. True, it was based on their experiences in Normandy, but I don't know where you got the idea that this pattern were done specifically for the Ardennes offensive.
So I guess now we know how myths about German camo came to be. By some guy just theorizing the heck out of them.
I hope Von Rosen has more going on in is life than fooling around with rc toy tanks or you.
07-15-2008, 09:37 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
here is what page 175 says uder the picture that you guys are refering to.
"Having lost almost all of its tanks in northern France,the battalion was reconstituted at camp Senne (near Paderborn) in September 1944.
The tanks were lined up for a propaganda filming during the battalions training there.The tanks in the backround have already been marked and can be positively identifird as having belonged to the 3./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503. Some of the tanks have the newly introduced "ambush"
pattern camouflage scheme (2nd and 3rd tanks). The tanker seen sitting in the loaders hatchof the first tank wears the unofficial tiger emblem that was popular with soldiers of the battalion ...Von Rosen"
page 175 tigers in combat I
"Having lost almost all of its tanks in northern France,the battalion was reconstituted at camp Senne (near Paderborn) in September 1944.
The tanks were lined up for a propaganda filming during the battalions training there.The tanks in the backround have already been marked and can be positively identifird as having belonged to the 3./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503. Some of the tanks have the newly introduced "ambush"
pattern camouflage scheme (2nd and 3rd tanks). The tanker seen sitting in the loaders hatchof the first tank wears the unofficial tiger emblem that was popular with soldiers of the battalion ...Von Rosen"
page 175 tigers in combat I
07-16-2008, 01:58 PM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
That's it! Thanks! And nowhere does it say that these particular King Tigers were sent to the Ardennes. That book was pretty darn detailed about the movements of every single Tiger unit, and Schneider would have mentioned something big as the 503rd giving up their tanks to the units who fought in the Ardennes.
07-17-2008, 12:07 AM
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RE: "Ambush" on a Tiger 1?
Since I have no clue as to why Pcomm1 would choose to have this conversation in other threads instead of here....I took the liberty and just copied everything he said over here.
Actually, I agree with most of what you said. I guess my contention is for people not to call the ambush camo as "Ardennes" camo. Because it's simply not. Besides, not every King Tigers, or Panthers, or whatever German armor who fought in the Ardennes had this particular camo scheme. Tiger 332 of the s.ss.pz.abt. 501st for instance, is a prime example of one of the King Tigers who didn't have this camo. And several zimmerit-covered King Tigers from the s.pz.abt. 506th didn't have this camo as well.
Not to mention the numerous Panthers from various units who didn't have this camo too. So to say that this camo was made especially for the Ardennes offensive is simply isn't true.
Why the Germans invented the ambush camo was never the issue. if you look back at my posts, I agreed with you from the start, that it's because of their experience with Allied air power during the Normandy battles.
It's your assertions that they made it specifically for the Ardennes Offensive is what I'm having trouble with.
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...tid=157&page=2
And here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/camo.htm
According to these, and other sources, the "ambush" camo was designed and introduced in August 19th, 1944. I believe the Germans were still fighting in France at this point. Yep, I believe the Germans were encircled in Falaise at this time.
So why would you have us believe that they made the ambush camo specifically for a counteroffensive in areas (Belgium/Antwerp) they haven't even lost to the Allies yet?
Did the Germans have a magic ball that told them that they Allies would have forces in the Ardennes? And they knew exactly where the Allies would be in December 1944? In August? When they're still fighting in France? Come on.
For other more emotive conclusions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/armorn...orhut/messages
Please do not mistake me for adult or mature, I build models.
Off topic, but more fun than rc tank vendors:
I read that the "hard edge pattern" was applied at the factory, a pretty specific pattern and that it was designed as part of the need for new panzer tactics for defending North Western Europe and Germany.
The "hard edge" 3 color pattern (King Tigers 2 and 3 in your KT training lineup photo) with the various color dots was based on a German science color study and developed to hide AFVs (armored fighting vehicles) by placing them under forest canopies. The use of that hard edge camouflage pattern made even the giant King Tiger difficult to see when Allied photo intelligence people studied aerial photo recon black and white images.
Why new panzer tactics? While the most tragic, hardest, bitter and worst fighting and most deaths were occurring in the East, in places like Hungry, as you stated, from the German military perspective, German military planners coldly calculated that giving up territory in its Eastern "retreat", meant a loss of land.
The British, Canadian, French, USA and the other Western Allies attacking on the ETO Western Front meant to the German military planners a "certain invasion and defeat". Allied armies going into Germany proper would mean the end for WWII Germany.
Complete and massive Allied Air Superiority (Jabos) in the ETO (European Theater of Operations) made German Armor movement and actual combat (moving from a stagging area to the combat line & then fighting) a different kind of deadly business for the panzer crews, when compared to the massive, hellish, tank duals happening on the Eastern Front.
In the ETO (Western Front) some of the worst threats to German Panzers were the fighter/bomber, the heavy strategic bombers and the lowly artillery spotter aircraft calling in Allied artillery strikes.
I believe, I read about the KT "hard edge" ambush camo on the RAL web site or in an article about WWII RAL, the large German Graphics/Paint Corporation (which develops color standards for much of the world, still, today). That King Tiger hard edge camouflage pattern, is sometimes referred to as Ardennes Ambush Camouflage, though the term, Ambush Camouflage, is also used generically when referring to 3 color WWII German panzers, even without the dots and hard "line" paint edges.
That KTs purposed for the Ardennes went elsewhere was probably based on the realization that a tank that big most often could not get to the fight in the ETO, in a timely manner (poor mobility), a bitter lesson for German Panzer Commanders once they started their attack in the Battle of the Bulge. A powerful tank that cannot get to the fight is not a very good help.
Google search RAL, Ardennes Ambush Camouflage, panzer camouflage, interesting stuff pops up.
And this is an interesting place to start a fun search without buying books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ATa...um=2&ct=result
Take care, John
Please do not mistake me for adult or mature, I build models.
Off topic, but more fun than rc tank vendors:
I read that the "hard edge pattern" was applied at the factory, a pretty specific pattern and that it was designed as part of the need for new panzer tactics for defending North Western Europe and Germany.
The "hard edge" 3 color pattern (King Tigers 2 and 3 in your KT training lineup photo) with the various color dots was based on a German science color study and developed to hide AFVs (armored fighting vehicles) by placing them under forest canopies. The use of that hard edge camouflage pattern made even the giant King Tiger difficult to see when Allied photo intelligence people studied aerial photo recon black and white images.
Why new panzer tactics? While the most tragic, hardest, bitter and worst fighting and most deaths were occurring in the East, in places like Hungry, as you stated, from the German military perspective, German military planners coldly calculated that giving up territory in its Eastern "retreat", meant a loss of land.
The British, Canadian, French, USA and the other Western Allies attacking on the ETO Western Front meant to the German military planners a "certain invasion and defeat". Allied armies going into Germany proper would mean the end for WWII Germany.
Complete and massive Allied Air Superiority (Jabos) in the ETO (European Theater of Operations) made German Armor movement and actual combat (moving from a stagging area to the combat line & then fighting) a different kind of deadly business for the panzer crews, when compared to the massive, hellish, tank duals happening on the Eastern Front.
In the ETO (Western Front) some of the worst threats to German Panzers were the fighter/bomber, the heavy strategic bombers and the lowly artillery spotter aircraft calling in Allied artillery strikes.
I believe, I read about the KT "hard edge" ambush camo on the RAL web site or in an article about WWII RAL, the large German Graphics/Paint Corporation (which develops color standards for much of the world, still, today). That King Tiger hard edge camouflage pattern, is sometimes referred to as Ardennes Ambush Camouflage, though the term, Ambush Camouflage, is also used generically when referring to 3 color WWII German panzers, even without the dots and hard "line" paint edges.
That KTs purposed for the Ardennes went elsewhere was probably based on the realization that a tank that big most often could not get to the fight in the ETO, in a timely manner (poor mobility), a bitter lesson for German Panzer Commanders once they started their attack in the Battle of the Bulge. A powerful tank that cannot get to the fight is not a very good help.
Google search RAL, Ardennes Ambush Camouflage, panzer camouflage, interesting stuff pops up.
And this is an interesting place to start a fun search without buying books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ATa...um=2&ct=result
Take care, John
Not to mention the numerous Panthers from various units who didn't have this camo too. So to say that this camo was made especially for the Ardennes offensive is simply isn't true.
Why the Germans invented the ambush camo was never the issue. if you look back at my posts, I agreed with you from the start, that it's because of their experience with Allied air power during the Normandy battles.
It's your assertions that they made it specifically for the Ardennes Offensive is what I'm having trouble with.
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...tid=157&page=2
And here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/camo.htm
According to these, and other sources, the "ambush" camo was designed and introduced in August 19th, 1944. I believe the Germans were still fighting in France at this point. Yep, I believe the Germans were encircled in Falaise at this time.
So why would you have us believe that they made the ambush camo specifically for a counteroffensive in areas (Belgium/Antwerp) they haven't even lost to the Allies yet?
Did the Germans have a magic ball that told them that they Allies would have forces in the Ardennes? And they knew exactly where the Allies would be in December 1944? In August? When they're still fighting in France? Come on.
