rivetcounter

It would be true to say that there where more turreted tank types than assault gun types serving in Normandy but it would be untrue to say all where Panther’s and Tigers the Germans operated a whole range of tanks below is a list of the main types fighting on each front divided into English/Canadian because our Canadian brothers where there in the thick of the heaviest battles and the US front

English/Canadian US
Tiger I Panther
Tiger II Jagdpanther
Panther Panzer IV
Panzer IV Stug IV
Stug III Stug III
Jagdpanzer IV JagdpanzerIV

Along with these main types there are also
Panzer II
Panzer III
Marder of various types
Wespe
Brummbar IV
Hummel
Le.F.H.18/4 (SLF)
Char

Panther production from March to May 1944

A 617
G 310
Total 927

Of the 927 Panther’s produced during this time the vast majority would have gone to Russia the rest sent to Italy and Normandy.

It is well known that the SS took priority over the Army for new weapons and where better equipped yet we find Panzer strength of the following divisions

1 SS LAH….Panther 67…. PzIV 103
2 SS DR….Panther 72….PzIV 92
12 SS HJ….Panther 79….PzIV 96
116 Pz Div….Panther 78….PzIV 86

Total Panther for these four divisions 296 not to mention the other divisions with Panther IE 9thSS, 10thSS and Panzer Lher and not all of these where exclusively on the US front, one also has to consider the complexity of the Panther compared to the Panzer IV, x3 Panzer IV could be built in the same time it took to build a Panther and the numbers game was not on the German side, these four divisions also had Sug and Panzerjager regiments.

Panzer IV was from 1943 the backbone of the German Army and outnumbered all other tank types with the exception of Stug, by the end of the war the Panther was supposed to become the replacement for Panzer IV.
Many pictures from the time where incorrectly captioned, US photographer “George Greb” was particularly good at this often taking pictures from different angles and claiming them to be a different tank tank (x5 Panther knocked out, take 4 pictures from different angles and now you have 20 knocked out Panther) also claiming everything he saw as a “Tiger” but then this happened on all fronts by every camera man, I have also seen a lot of Tigers knocked out around Caen, with US troops claiming them as there kill………? My own Grand Father who served in Normandy used to tell me that every German tank had an 88, which is in fact wrong, Tiger and Panther pictures are favoured by everyone but simple fact is the Germans just didn’t have the manufacturing capability to build them,

kalnaren

By the time of the Allied landings in Normandy, Panthers made up about 25% of the total Wehrmacht Panzer Arm, with a majority moved to the Eastern Front later in the war to try and slow down the Russians. The Panther wasn't designed to replace the Panzer IV. The Germans fully intended on keeping the cheaper Pz4 in production along side the Panther.

Many of the 'knocked out' Panthers in pictures from WWII weren't actually destroyed by the Allies.. but rather by the Germans themselves. The French found that nearly half of the Panthers abandoned by the Germans had destroyed final drives -this was the single biggest weakness of the Panther, and as the war progressed into the later stages the Germans gradually lost the ability to repair them (due to the construction of the Panther the final drive was almost impossible to field repair). Thus many Panthers that broke down ended up being abandoned and destroyed by the Germans.

As for the American 76mm-armed M4compared to the Commonwealth Sherman VC Firefly, the American 76-mm was quite inferiour to the 17-pounder. It still couldn't break the frontal armour of a Panther or Tiger at long range, whereas the 17-pounder could punch through both at over 3,000 yards (depending on the ammo, the 17-pounder was actually more deadly than both the 75/L70 on the Panther and the 88mm on the Tiger I).

Generally, in Commonwealth tank troops, the issue was one Firefly to 4 or 5 Shermans... and it usually took 3-4 shermans lost to kill a Tiger or Panther, as they'd distract the German tank while the Firefly got into firing position.

rivetcounter

Do you have any idea of the ratio of M4A1 fitted with 75mm guns compared to the standard 76mm gun.

The Germans recognised that the 17Pdr was very dangerous and when they could these guns/Firefly would be destroyed first, Challenger was fitted with the 17Pdr though this tank was a complete disaster and the guns where fitted to inferior Sherman’s giving them the edge on firepower only they where not called “Ronson or Tommy Cooker” for nothing, The 17 Pdr could penetrate 155mm of armour at 1600 yards using APDS ammunition something that was very rare in 1944.

Anyone know who was the highest scoring commonwealth ace what score and what type of tank.

googlydoogly

Canadian Sydney Valpy Radley-Walters. I think he used 75mm Shermans, but I read somewhere he used a Firefly in the Falaise pocket.

rivetcounter

Sydney Valpy Radley-Walters (Canadian) was credited as the killer of Wittmann for a while,
He participated in Operation Market-Garden as commander of the A Squadron of the Second Armoured Brigade, and his unit broke through and relieved the 101st Airborne.
He is credited as Allied ace of aces with 18 tank kills

YHR

All the confusion around who got Wittman. There is strong evidence that it was the Canadians that got him, however a claim by the Brits is also seems valid, although they were a long way out there compared to the Canadians. My thought is the two guys fired at the same time, and Wittmans tank blew up.

Happens to me all the time in RO. I shoot a tank I watch it blow up, and somebody else on the other ridge gets the kill because he fired at that same time as me. Both tanks crews swear it was them that got him.

Rad was one tough tank commander by the sounds of it.

kalnaren

Not sure of the ratio. I did a bit of quick searching but the M4 was produced in so many varients it's hard to nail down. I know Patton requested that no more 75mm armed M4's be sent to Europe sometime in '44, so I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the war the ratio was close to 50%. At the time of the Normandy landings though, there were none that were armed with a 76mm (AFAIK -could be wrong here).The Chellenger was a disaster, the Comet was much much better but it didn't make an appearence until the end of the war. The 17-pounder was excellent with APDS ammunition.. unfortunetly it was pretty rare (got issued to TD regiments instead).. I believe the same held true for APCBC ammunition (which was, under certain circumstances, found to be better than APDS).Point being.. I want an R/C Firefly to challange an RC Panther

chinito_03

even the aircore claim that they are the one who too em down...
also during that fight there were tank destroyer engaging em too.

arkmagus

Guys, I dunno if anyone else has seen this but Mato has the Panther "Date Available: Monday, 19 October 2009". I placed my order just now along with a jagdpanther. Hoping to be a happy puppy in a couple of days

kalnaren

Still says December 15th for me

Wozwasnt

Forgebear in the UK has got already got them in (they're grey).

arkmagus

Check this link http://matomart.com/newitem.php

I've copy-pasted this from Mato's site just now:

Model: NEW 1:16 R/C S&S Grey Panther (Super Version)
Item No: 21822
Date Available: Monday, 19 October 2009
Price: USD$139.00USD$119.00

kalnaren

Just copy-pasted this....

Model: NEW 1:16 R/C S&S Grey Panther (Super Version)

Item No: 21822-N
Date Available: Tuesday, 15 December 2009
Price: CAD$166.80CAD$142.80


Well, I'm thoroughly confused lol. Says the same thing for me if I click 'USCustomer' instead 0_o

Wozwasnt

Just had a look on the Mato site and the Sherman has got a review already so someone must have one.

arkmagus

Hmmm... seems Mato is making this available now for international buyers but Canada and USA buyers would have to wait til December [X(] At any rate, if and when I do get the order I'll be sure to post it here

blitzkrieg65

The Panthers have not even hit the shore yet,, so no promises on the delivery date! But like the Sherman I am taking pre-orders and I will be cheaper then Mato at least for the US customer,, maybe Canada too,, and delivery will only a be few days later!


http://www.rctankwars.com/Products.asp

The Blitz

kalnaren

Works out to about $148 CDN vs. $142 from Mato.. then we have to add shipping (probably about the same either way)... but I'd be worried about how much CBSAis going to screw me ordering from the US.

YHR

I can't see any other date the December 15 for the Panthers at the Mato site?????.

kalnaren

Select "International Customer" instead of Canadian or US.

googlydoogly

Wouldn't you get in trouble for using Matomart images promoting your own sales, and using them on your website?[sm=confused.gif]

rivetcounter

As far as the Air force is concerned they can be ruled out as they where not flying in this area on the date in question, and as for the debate on who killed Wittmann, either Canadian or English I guess this will never be truly answered as the only pictures of Wittmanns Tiger is from the rear and doesn’t show any penetration holes so the direction the killer round came will not be answered until more pictures come to light.

I don’t believe that any M4A1 where issued to either English or Canadian regiments, Challenger was used in 1945 for reconnaissance duties and Cromwell was a wonderful tank that arrived far too late in the war had it arrived earlier it would have been seen as the finest Allied tank.

I think the next Sherman should be either a Firefly or an M10 so it can be converted to an English M10 Achilles

YHR

Canadian units had the M4A1 with 75mm cannon. They called them Sherman II's

kalnaren

Do you have any Cromwell production numbers? Iwas looking for some but couldn't find any.

rivetcounter

Sorry I meant “Comet” as for Cromwell I have no production numbers though I would certainly like to have one from any of the manufactures as this would go well with my late Tiger I

kclank

i just copy pasted this. seems like mixed info from Mato

his item will be available December.15,2009. Rush shipping is available.


Full Function Radio Controlled; Turret Cannon Move Up and Down; Move All Direction ; Realistic Suspension System;Realsistic Commander is Equipped; 7.2v Recharged Battery; Powerful Motor Airsoft Gun (Hop-up system); Tank Transmitter; Plastic Pellets Can shoot as far as 25 meters; Auto Reload Bullet System; Excellent Maneuvering Performance; 10-Speed System;Light-Up Warning System; Pre-Painted Body; Approx Operating Time 30 Minutes; Operating Passenger Included; Factory Assembled - READY TO RUN; Scale 1:16;

Start-up/Extinguish Set;
New Firing Sound;
New Built-in Smoke Generator;
Simulative motor start-up sound,engine sound,machine-gun sound,cannonball sound.
Emulational action effect.The sound can adjust.
SPECIFICATION
56*21*18cm
PACKAGE INCLUDE
Tank

Transmitter

Rechargeable battery

Charger

Tank commander

BB'pellet
Added Incentive With Mato Mart
Metal Engine

The Metal engine comes with all Henglong tanks purchased from Mato Mart. This engine is stronger than other plastic engines, and will help the tank run more smoothly over different surfaces. It also lets the tank move at a more realistic speed.

NI-CD SC 2000MAH 7.2V Power rechargeable battery

This battery is more powerful and lasts longer than most standard batteries. It comes with all Henglong Tanks purchased from Mato Mart.