Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?

As far as I know, the Panther was the first, with the AK 7-200 transmission.

Maybe the Stug had the same feature?

Thanks,
Robert

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Tiger E, Tiger B, Panther, Jagdpanther, and Jagdtiger come to mind.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

No WW II tank had a pivot capability. Prerequisit for pivot is to have a turning radius the length of the tank. You're correct in that the Panther did have what was listed as a pivot but only at high rpm and very slow, like a caterpillar with track lock. The entire Tiger family had a similar setup with one track moving very slow in the opposit direction, but not a real pivot.

The first operational pivots were in the US M-46 in 1951 and the M-41 issued in late 1953, using the Allison CD transmissions. Problems were experienced in the early Allisons in that internal pressure would suck a hole around the upper control servos and pivots were discouraged, but this was eliminated in the later M-47 tanks.

The History Channel's "Great Tank Battles" do a great injustice is showing Shermans, Stugs and T-34s executing pivots, which was impossible for those tanks. Panthers and early T-34s were reported to have difficult transmissions to operate with the Panther having a synchomesh only in the intermediate rpm range, then requiring double clutching as is all speeds for Sherman, T-34 and KVs which had no synchromesh at all. T-34s and KVs had a dual lateral and foot brake steering like Caterpillars, which gave them a faster turn, but no pivot.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

I am curious as to what we are seeing at about 2:58 to about 3:10 in this video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWKfpOtFtBc

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Agreed, that's a pivot ...of sorts..., but as stated, very slow. If it takes a full minute or more to achieve, operationally it's not of much value. We've all seen that movie clip and the Jagdtiger test at APG in the mud, both shot during testing of captured tanks. In all cases, the maneuver is extremely slow and extremely risky on breaking a track, so tactically not what a tank would safely use and expect to go anywhere.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Robert,
Pardon my ignorance, but Tiger E and Tiger B? are they later models of the Tiger I and KT ?

Jim

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

You mean the Heng Long ballerina spin isn't accurate? [:o]

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

You make fun of the HL ballernia spin, but if you look at tanks battle vids from Danville, those tanks are accomplishing manuvers that no Moderern tank could do let alone a WW II tank or even a sports car. Go figure. I truley like the idea of IR battleing, but put it in realalistic capabilties of the tanks ( not just hits, but in manuvering).

Jim

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Thank you guys, I've learned a lot (again!).

I just wanted to know if the pivot turns capability of my models is historically accurate or not. My Jagdpanther, Tiger I and T-34/85 (?) do pivot turns, but the [link=https://picasaweb.google.com/105403795492677221295/PanzerII?authkey=Gv1sRgCKeR7a3q3pSp5gE]Panzer II[/link] doesn't.

Regards,
Robert

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Fast or slow, a pivot is a pivot, given the stresses involved in driving two tracks each loaded with 20-plus tons in opposite directions, even modern tanks don't pivot that quickly either. Given the well known weaknesses of the German tank transmission its a surprise it could even do it at all!

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

I think that crews were not encouraged to do pivot turns, unless strictly necessary.

Robert

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Yep, if you were standing next to a tank as it churned up the earth underneath its tracks, or the terrible screeching of metal tracks or grinding of rubber trackpads then you will understand the stresses involved and how not recommended it is!

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

I fully agree Jim.

I can't kill my son with my Tammy Tiger I if he uses the M4 105. He just circles and circles keeping the turret faced away. I'm surprised about the speed constraints some clubs have to base the battle in accuracy, but then allow 45 degree defense, jacking the tank front, etc.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Use of a pivot...or more correctly Neutral Steer, depends largely on where use want to use it. On a hard surface, such as main road or hard paved areas, a tank with Allison Tranny can easlly execute 3-4 complete pivots in a matter of seconds. it leaves neat "crop circle" patterns on the pavement. Tight curvey mountain roads are ideal. For combat use, it was and is highly discouraged. Soft terrain or especially loose gravel will take off a track fast....also causing the center guides to remove chunks of rubber from the road wheels and make bearings sound like static on a 1930's radio. The torque is emmense. In Germany it was SOP to jump out of a wooded area onto a paved road, neutral it to the direction you want to go and throw it on low even before it stops...Allison CDs will take it. But not cross country running.

Chinese toy tank makers have really hit the jackpot with the "super spin". In IR "combat", even Shermans and t-34s can run 50 mph and execute a pivot... all with a 5 speed crash box.


Robert, Believe you could use a limited very slow pivot, with your tiger and JT and be within reason. Just don't use ballerina shoes.
T-34, no way.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Jim
Tiger E = Tiger 1 Henschel
Tiger B = Tiger 2

Bob

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

The question has been answered already but the Tiger I and Tiger II were capable of neutral turns as seen in the film, also notice that the Tiger I is turning in soft soil hence it digging itself into the ground but as you can see this was achieved but as has been said undertaking such a manoeuvre is fraught with danger from throwing tracks unless it’s on a hard surface, as for the speed in which a Tiger can perform a neutral turn is not really known again in the film the tank turns slow but it’s on a soft surface so it would have to turn slow to avoid throwing tracks, I have seen the Tiger at Bovington undertake this manoeuvre but no one is going to risk testing the tank to see just how quickly this manoeuvre can be done this is the same with turret turn speed, Tiger and Panther had a multi speed traverse, the harder you revved the engine the faster the turret turned, Bovington have only ever done this test at tick over but this doesn’t mean that the turret can’t turn faster

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

I've seen a photo of the ground left by a Maus doing a "pivot" turn. It churned up a tall pile of dirt in a circle.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Interesting though, I have read stories of both German and Russian armor doing pivot turns over enemy trenches and burying the unluckey soldiers stilll manning them . Hmmmmmm.


Jim

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Thanks Bob. I really should have known that as much as I read about German armor. Guess just not used to the official designations.

Thanks Again.

Jim

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

I would also like to say that this is a very enjoyable discussion. Thanks all for sharing.

jim

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Mmmm...that smells like fog of war...

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Caving in trenches requires a slight turn of the tank as opposed to a natural turn on top of the trench also driving back and forth will also cave the trench in, remember trenches usually do not have strengthened wall the weight of the tank passing over will cause the wall to start collapsing the deeper the trench the more likely it will collapse

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Jim, that was a maneuver used crossing foxholes and trenches. Not a pivot, but as the tank was over half way over the hole, the driver would yank one of the laterals for a hard turn, causing the track to scoop dirt or collapse the trench wall onto the defenders. That was also a maneuver used at times in Korea, as NVPA and Chinese would play dead and after tanks had passed, get up and shoot from the rear. Partially burying the "dead" enemy iliminated some of this. Executing a neutral steer would bury the tank in the trench.

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

I think that I'd prefer support from the infantry to clear the trenches instead of risking the tank, the dug in enemy troops could be fielding an RPG then the game is over.

Regards,
Robert

RE: Which Panzers had pivot turning capability?
 

Robert, in Korea, there were no RPGs. Infantry and tanks would advance on line. When we were confronted with the "Possom" NKVA
hazard, the infantry commander would place a squad 50-100 yrds behind the advancing company, at times with a tank to counter the sneak attacks. NKPA 3d Div tried the tactic with satchel charges late in the war, but follow up infantry was able to take care of most.
It was commonplace when advancing close to a foxhole or short dig to make a hard turn and cave it in.