Hetzer: Origins (?)
 

The Maresal vehicles were a series of domestically produced Romanian anti tank guns which proceeded from the prototype M-00 to the final series of prototypes designated M-05 and M-06, the M-05 being the one of interest as it was the one which dropped the T-60 chassis on which they were being built up to that point.

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The M-04 was field tested in early 1944 and this testing was witnessed by a German officer called Ventz and another one or two according to some historians. The M-05 was tested in March of 1944.

The Romanians planned to produce the Maresal domestically (I imagine with German help) and a battalion was formed specifically to use the M-05 of which 200 were initially planned. Testing continued through out the summer of 1944 and the M-05 compared favourably to a Stug III in field trials during June 1944, again in front of German officers who reportedly liked it very much.

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Wikipedia has the following to say about the assertions as to Hetzer/Maresal relationship.

"British historian Mark Axworthy suggests that the design for the Hetzer was likely rooted from the Romanian "Maresal" tank destroyer. In November–December 1943, a Romanian commission ordered from Germany and German-occupied France several components which could not be made in Romania, and this drew German attention to the Maresal. Hitler had approved the development of the Hetzer on 7 December 1943. That same month, Marshal Antonescu (Conducator of Romania at the time) commended the Maresal project to Hitler. Soon afterwards, on 6 January 1944, Hitler was presented with the plans of the Maresal M-04 prototype. Axworthy notes that the Hetzer's armament, armor configuration and chassis broadening were very similar to those of the M-04. He also reports that in May 1944, German Lieutenant-Colonel Ventz (a delegate of the Waffenamt) admitted that the Hetzer had followed the Romanian design solution. American historian Steven Zaloga writes that "The Germans were impressed with the overall layout of the Maresal, and it is credited with being the inspiration for the German Jagdpanzer 38(t) tank destroyer."

Im not getting into a discussion about whether or not the M-05 being the Hetzer inspiration is true or not but I thought it would be a nice thing to build.

So my plan is to build a Maresal from steel. I need double horned tracks so my plan is to use Sherman tracks and a modified sherman sprocket. Everything else will be scratched. Likely problems are the very sloped nature of the casemate which will be tricky regarding a gearbox and the leaf spring suspension which I have never tried beofre. Otherwise one would think it should be relatively easy as it just seems to be massive slabs of armor and very little tricky detail parts.

This will serve as a place holder thread as I busy sort of with something else so cannot promise this will proceed rapidly until I am finished elsewhere.

But I cut and shaped the first steel bits yesterday and I will see how it goes from there. Humble beginnings and all that.
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P

THIS is an interesting prototype! :cool:

You know it strikes a resemblance to Da Vinci's tank

I reckon I'd have to be Da Vinci to put the stupid thing together.

I test fitted the bottom bit today. Seems straight forward.

I cut out the main bits of the top.... and there is not a normal angle in it. Anywhere. Somehow I have to hold it together to get it soldered.

I dont know how magnets could work as there are no right angles (or anything like 45 degrees or 60 or whatever). I may use some kind of wooden board with nails in it or something.

I have to think about this.

P
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If you can think of a shape you need and draw it out for us I'm sure someone can print you a jig with some magnet inserts in it. The Hetzer is one of my favorite tanks, I'll be more than happy to offer to help there. Can you draw it up for us on a piece of paper or in something like Tinkercad?

Tracks look closer to PZIII than Sherman. Use whatever.
Cool project.
B

I agree with Bob, Sherman tracks just wouldn't look right on any Axis AFV. If you can find them I'd be looking at transport tracks, possibly for a Tiger. But like Bob said, it's your project and I'm sure that with your skill level it will turn out looking great.

I wonder if there's something in 1/24 scale that might do the job? Maybe 1/24 Panther tracks?

I might have to take you up on that! I'll probably take one shot at it in the old fashioned way before I give up and seek assisstance.

BUt you could be on to something with the idea of a jig and magnets.

P

I see the points re the tracks. I'm awfully limited though..... the Sherman sprocket is a real good match for the diameter and Sherman tracks are two horned.

Ive never seen Sherman tracks or had a set so I have no real idea how they would look. But a Pz III sprocket is not going to fit in teh space available.

The 24 scale tracks are a good suggestion though. I had not thought of that.

P

I just happened to have a 1/6 scale hetzer and a couple of good books on that tank, so if I can help just holler. I can take photos of my tank or scan pages from the book as needed.

Another great project!

Years back I made a 1/10 model of the Hetzer. I actually had purchased the basic pieces from a guy in Germany who started the project.
He used 2mm (~.080") thick aluminum sheet to make the upper and lower hulls. He had glued most it all together and hadn't got much further.
Fastening those hull plates and keeping the correct angles was a challenge

My solution was to make short small sections of similar aluminum sheet formed to keep the upper hull plates at the right angles then using flush
rivets to fasten the hull together. I am unable to weld aluminum or I would have tried in but thin sheets or anything can warp when heated so
I'd recommend something similar to the riveting technique I use. If you are a welder or have access to a pro welder go that route to make the upper hull.
Concealed flush rivets make a strong hull. I see you've already cut your upper hull plates or I would have suggested to make small 'tabs' on the sides that
join so you could use those to rivet to.

Some time after build my Hetzer I found another 1/10 scale Hetzer that was very nicely welded from steel albeit thicker than my aluminum version but
they managed not to warp the sheets by do shorter nearly 'tack' welds.

Jerry

Am following this one.

lposter I think I somehow missed what scale you are making your model. Do you have a width for the tracks? They seem
quite narrow even for the M-05 prototype. I didn't read whether or not the last prototype carried forward the track from the Russian
T-60 or if it was a completely new design. Quite an intriguing project.

Jerry

Hi Tanque
It will be 1/16 Im afraid. I have no room for 1:10 anymore.

The tracks according to my guesstimates are about Pz III width.

I have two options.

1. Use a Sherman sprocket and tracks. The advantages are that the sprocket is about right size and the tracks are double horned as apparently were those on the M-05. The disadvantages are that the sprocket is a little weird and would require a fair bit of modification and the tracks are and always will be blatantly obviously sherman tracks.

2. Use Pz III tracks and sprocket. Advantages are that tracks look more like the ones in the photo and the sprocket is easier to modify. The big downside is the single guide horn which means the rpad wheels would need a groove in them. If a narrow groove was put in, it might not be that noticeable.

The outside contender is to use a couple of #25 roller chains and appropriate sprocket but fitting guide teeth would be insurmountable for me.

Tiger I transport tracks have been suggested but the sprocket is way too big and the price is more than my entire tank collection is worth I reckon (exagerating a bit there). Other tracks, like the panther ones are just way too wide. Maybe for 1:10 they would work but Im not going down that road just to accomodate some tracks. I really dont have the room.
So to my mind its either Sherman or Pz III tracks. I havent decided yet as Im still thinking about it. But Pz III might be easiest. I have noticed now - I am not familiar with US tanks at all - that the Sherman sprocket engages the track on the very outside of the lonks and that might not look so good at all.

Irrespective of what I choose, its going to be a bodge job with the tracks but thats life I guess.

Any opinion on the matter would be welcome!

P

Now that you mention it....the ones in the photo are not a million miles away from T-60 tracks which would make sense. And teh T-60 did have double guide horns.

So you could be onto something there in that the M-05 was probably still using T-60 tracks even though the casemate had changed to something else.

I have built a T-60 before but it was in 1:10 and I just used roller chain for tracks as I am not someone who could tackle home made tracks.

Its really a pity there is not more information about these machines. I guess the built ones just vansihed into RUssia once they got to Romania.

P

I was thinking 1/24th scale Panther tracks would be just about right, but I haven't looked around to see what's available.

I had a look for 1:24 tracks but didnt get anywhere. Som nasty rubber ones and that was it.

is there a big market for 1:24 stuff?

p

I wouldn't say big, but there is a market for 1/24 tanks since they're much better suited for indoor or table top battlefields. I have a friend in the business so I'll ask him about sources for tracks, and I would also look at the 1/18 stuff. like forces of valor. I know they make a 1/18 panther, but I don't know if the tracks are decent or those crummy rubber band jobs.

These are pricey, but the best I could find.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-16-TIGER-...item2619937375

Those are nice to be fair and I actually have tiger sprockets some where.

But they cost more than the tank itself is going to cost.

i might just be heading for Pz iii tracks. I dont like the look of the sherman ones, double teeth or not.

p

If you can find a set of Asiatam Hetzer tracks around that would be gold. Maybe Herman has a set or two if you are lucky? I had to send bossman to China to get my set. LMK if you need/want measurements from them.

Hello

It was time to p**s or get off the pot with this Maresal so I drank a lot of water and got stuck into it.

To be fair ... over the past few weeks Ive been doing a lot of filing and stuff and had a lot of the bits ready to go. The trickiest bit was always going to be (actually the second trickiest bit) this shallow turtle casemate over the top. The angles have to be spot on or deviations will propogate down through the rest of the model.

In the end I gave up on my adjustable protractor and all the cardboard templates and just slapped the five bits on a flat surface and raised them up incrementally until they all came together like a flower or something.

I used some brass bar down the widest angles to beef up the fillet and to serve to fill up some of the gaps and form a foundation when I start slapping on the filler and sanding. Otherwise...quite pleased.

It looks rough as hell but its even and flat along the bottom which is the crucial thing.

Apologies for the roughness but Im not wasting time sanding and cleaning at this stage.

P

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There wasn't a hope of me sleeping tonight without knowing whether or not the top piece was going to line up with the bottom of the hull so I wiped off the crud and started fitting the main pieces of the bottom hull to th etop bit.

And was pleasantly surprised!! Not more than half a millimeter out and maybe half a degree on an angle or two!!! Kaaaacchiing!!

Really got lucky and this will save me a whole shedload of frustration!

I really like the sports car look of this tank and am really hoping the rest doesnt prove problematic!

P

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I work a lot with Photo-Etch but I rarely use a soldering iron instead I use a Butane torch and "Fryolux" Paint,
With a job like this I would cut a length of a bean can to the right length and tack solder the end of the bean can to the centre of the plate then pull the adjoining plate in place and tack solder the other end of the bean can strip to the centre of that plate
This allows the correct angle to be held, If needed a support can be placed under the plates when they are being held together.
The two plates being held in position you can now PAINT the "Fryolux" liquid solder along the seam and run the torch flame along that seam and job done--continue with the rest of the plates then "Desolder" the bean can strips.
A word of warning "Fryolux" liquid solder is very toxic, It will kill fish and young children so keep it somewhere safe,
It is expensive but lasts forever...

When I scratch built a Hetzer back 10 years ago in 1/16, I made the lower hull out of metal and the upper was cast in resin, and the tracks were from a 1/24 Panther....BUT... so they would hold up on the battlefield, I had to drill out the links and insert metal pins.... this requires paying close attention to the tolerances. Otherwise you can end up w a wiggle bc one track is longer than the other...lol. Cute... but irritating!!! I made the fenders and other parts from brass.

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