Dissapointed
 

The title pretty much says it all. I have noticed as of late the recent increase in slander of one persons tank preference compared to anothers. When I first came to this board awhile back I was impressed with how helpful eveyone was. The idea was about RC tanking and its related subjects. My point specifically is the whole Tamiya vs Hen Long tiger debate. Lets be honest, I don't think I have seen one person say a HL is better then a Tamiya but I do think the HL bashing is a bit ridiculous. I think even the most basic member of the board (in regards to basic intellectual standing) can understand that not eveyone can afford the price of a Tamiya. It's like telling a father of 5 who works as a Janitor at your local highschool,
"Listen buddy, you should buy this new Hummer as apposed to your 1991 Chevy Astro Van. It is better quality, looks nicer and is made of higher quality parts" Lets be serious it is just not going to happen even though he may agree with you. I realize some and I repeat some of the people on this board have a general interest in this hobby and want to see it prosper and are only doing what they feel is best while others are just being negative. For these people who are being negative you are taking something good and turning into another forum where it becomes less about the hobby and more about who has what and Why you are so much better. No doubt by now you probably have figured out that I own a HL (tiger to be specific) and to be hosest with you, I love it. I am currently saving though for a 1/6th scale tiger from Britain and will be getting in about a year. So when I do get it I suppose I should come on this forum and tell eveyone that HL, Tamiyas etc... are junk and that eveyone should By 1/6th scale tanks.
Again I would just like to close this topic with a point, this is not a HL is on par with Tamiya rant, this is a stop the negative shift of the forum as it will do more harm to the well being of the community then the purchase of infererior tanks that a lot of people seem to be getting a great deal of joy from.

To those committed to helping, Bravo
and for those who aren't, well to be honest no comment is needed!

S.H.

RE: Dissapointed
 

Well Said....................For the Record, I own Both HL and tamiya. Love em both.







Semper Fi!

RE: Dissapointed
 

I need to express my disappointment too about this HL bashing.

Being new to RC tanking, I was initially very happy to find this website, where I learn a lot from all the old timers here. Frankly, I was really very glad initially...until now. Are these bashings necessary?

As mentioned earlier by konigstiger44, I don't think anyone will deny that the Tamiya is far better in every aspect than the HL, but I do hope that people will remember that not everyone have the cash (or intend to spend their cash) to get a Tamiya. And not everyone intend to go so far as to make RC tanking their main hobby in life.

Sigh...I hope that we will all remember that these tanks are ultimately JUST TOYS and a MEANS to help us to de-stress from our stressful work, not to add more stress to us.

Calv
__________________
Vs Airsoft M1A, HL S&S Pershing, HL S&S Tiger I

RE: Dissapointed
 

I posted this on another thread but wanted my point made here as well. I want to thank the guys, one of which is a HL hater in fact, for taking the time to answer my questions at length and in detail. I think I have the information I needed and this has been a great source of information. That said, let me weigh in on this debate.

Do people honestly think Tamiya was the first one to make a Tiger tank model? Do people think Tamiya owns the copyright on the Tiger model design? Do they also own the scale range known as 1/16th? The assertion that Heng Long tanks simply "copied" the Tamiya is ridiculous. If those who believe this apply this thesis to the static model world, then I suppose all of the manufacturers are ripping each other off as they offer the same model of various planes, tanks, or ships. But why stop there - lets just apply that concept to say everything, one example which might be, all shoe manufacturers. Clearly, since the beginning of time, they have all stolen the idea of footware from one identifiable original source?

I will say this again because it bares repeating. Tamiya cars of tremendous quality and durability didn't cost $500. They were priced well and their durability made many of us repeat buyers. I have ALWAYS thought the tanks were ridiculously overpriced and could never understand how or why they were that high. I am certain I am not alone in this belief. For a long time I simply thought they were sort of going the way of the Lexus, which is really just a Honda, or, an Infinity, which is really just a Nissan.

A Tamiya tank was to be special in the same way and was marketed that way. It was a big mistake. There were many who would have entered the hobby had Tamiya had a better pricing structure. They could have applied some cost analysis and realized they could have sold many more at say half of what they were charging, and made many more customers and return customers. What are the components guys - plastic, metal, some bearings and so on. The cars had the same thing but they didn't cost a mortgage payment. I have not opened a RC tamiya tank box to check the contents in years, but remember when I first saw one over 10 years ago. It appeared to me to be very much a static model kit, that had been made to run. Oh yeah, it had two 550 can motors instead of the one the TAO2W I had. I suppose that justifies the extra $450 right? It was nice and looked great - but never $500 great. Now, that was a long time ago so perhaps things have changed. This notion that others can't enter the market because there is only one "GOD RC TANK MAKER" and he only makes Tamiya, is just ridiculous.

If the components of the two models are that similar then the old saying "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" is appropriate here. Can we all be friends now and help people regardless of the model they choose?

< Message edited by Templars83 -- 5/30/2006 10:08:37 AM >

RE: Dissapointed
 

well said whats wrong with an hl a tank is a tank, i own 3, never had any bother with mine. DJD

RE: Dissapointed
 

Hey, I'm a newcomer too.

You all should lighten up. I think everyone understands the issues with quality.

If you want a HL, buy a HL. If you prefer Tamiya, buy a Tamiya.

I owned three HLs (there was a 4th, the Panther, but I returned it as it didn't arrive with some components, like the radio crystals).

They were fun but I decided to go to a larger scale (1:8), so I sold them to forum members, and hope they are having fun with them as I did.

My own advice is this: If you want a higher quality 1/16th scale tank, and can afford/want to spend the money on it, then invest in the Tamiya. Otherwise, buy a HL and expect to have to replace/repair on a more frequent basis (and this will vary from owner to owner). Either way, have fun with what you have.

Personally, if you can save a few more dollars, the larger scales rip.

Cheers...

RE: Dissapointed
 

My own thoughts on this are negative comments tend to have a life of there own. New guys come here and there first impression is "stay away at all costs" And it doesn't seem to have many good reasons behind the comments. Or at least most people when asked why will say "Well so an so said so" They have no direct knowledge, its gotten lost and has most likely been blown out of proportion...

And why? Because they are cheaper? They will need more work to maintain? That doesn't scare a lot of people. The simple fact is something cheap can bring people into the hobby like no expensive tank ever could. Is it because they arrive damaged? Thats not a real issue when places like Mato will fix those issues. Anything thats shipped can arrive damaged. Its the nature of shipping.

I think its really a subconscious mind trick. When you have a expensive toy, and along comes something at 1/10th the cost, you feel the need to justify your expence. The easiest way to do that is to slam the cheap version as garbage. Common sence would say otherwise. If the cheap version is 75% fun / quality / whatever the cost of the expensive one and its only 1/10th the cost. That is a good deal.

Rather then simply slamming them and wishing they were never created, wouldn't it be better to work with them? If they need a few mods to work better then get a list created, explain how to resolve those issues. That would go a lot further then simply saying, "told you it was crap"

Its not only about the Tamiya vs HL that I see this happening. You see it in every part of the RC world. From FG vs Baja 5b, to heli's, planes, and even trains. This same argument rages on. Boards such as this that lump everthing into one group doesn't help matters at all. Thats one of the reasons new smaller boards are created. Simply giving each tank its own section stops most of the fighting. And if a guy chooses to enter a forum simply to bash it contents, he / she can be dealt with. A much better alternative.

RE: Dissapointed
 

Well Like I posted earlier, I have them Both and do required maintenance where needed, That said I think its probably time to make myself very unpopular.... Concerning all this Bashing and defending, all this lets all get along please, Lets not forget one thing.....We have a 1st amendment still, and if we are on this forum or any other for that matter enjoying the freedom of the Internet, and reading this in English........................................... Thank a Soldier!




Semper Fi!

RE: Dissapointed
 

I think that you guys all have good points. However, not all of the people who bash Hen Long tanks own Tamiya tanks. There are several people who have just been burned by poor quality products and hold a grudge, so it is not always Tamiya vs. Hen Long.

The whole reason people like myself started giving their opinions about HL tanks is because new-comers ASKED FOR OPINIONS. If a fellow member of RCU asks me a specific question (all questions are directed to me unless otherwise stated :D), then I try my best to answer to the best of my ability. If you ask about HL faults, I will list and explain them. If you ask which tank to get, expect me to answer "Tamiya" because I want to help you, not lead you to a questionable purchase.

However, and this is the main issue for me, please do not ask for opinions, complain about them, buy a cheap tank, and then ask: "What is the best way to fix it?" "How can I upgrade this tank?". I cannot help much with that. Sometimes I feel like the father of a teenager, who will not listen to my advise and then calls me at 2:00 in the morning to bail him out of jail. :)

I really do wish everyone good luck with whatever brand and version of tank they get, and anytime I chime in it will be to try to help people make the best decision or to help rectify a poor one if I can.

Sincerely,
Jason

RE: Dissapointed
 

I will say this again because it bares repeating. Tamiya cars of tremendous quality and durability didn't cost $500. They were priced well and their durability made many of us repeat buyers. I have ALWAYS thought the tanks were ridiculously overpriced and could never understand how or why they were that high. I am certain I am not alone in this belief. For a long time I simply thought they were sort of going the way of the Lexus, which is really just a Honda, or, an Infinity, which is really just a Nissan.

A Tamiya tank was to be special in the same way and was marketed that way. It was a big mistake. There were many who would have entered the hobby had Tamiya had a better pricing structure. They could have applied some cost analysis and realized they could have sold many more at say half of what they were charging, and made many more customers and return customers. What are the components guys - plastic, metal, some bearings and so on. The cars had the same thing but they didn't cost a mortgage payment. I have not opened a RC tamiya tank box to check the contents in years, but remember when I first saw one over 10 years ago. It appeared to me to be very much a static model kit, that had been made to run. Oh yeah, it had two 550 can motors instead of the one the TAO2W I had. I suppose that justifies the extra $450 right? It was nice and looked great - but never $500 great. Now, that was a long time ago so perhaps things have changed. This notion that others can't enter the market because there is only one "GOD RC TANK MAKER" and he only makes Tamiya, is just ridiculous.

If the components of the two models are that similar then the old saying "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" is appropriate here. Can we all be friends now and help people regardless of the model they choose?

< Message edited by Templars83 -- 5/30/2006 10:08:37 AM >

Hello Templars83

I want to try to shed some light on why Tamiya tanks are expensive:

1. Unlike RC Cars, Trucks and Planes, there is only one manufacturer of Quality and Accurate 1/16 Scale Model Tanks, that’s Tamiya.

2. Example: because you have 5 RC Ford Mustangs from 5 different manufactures, all with similar performance, you have competition, which in time will lower price, each manufacture trying to get you to buy their product. So instead of one mustang costing $500.00, because of competition from four other companies it cost $175.00. That’s because of competition. In 1/16 Scale model Tanks, there is one line, one manufacture of quality products, Tamiya, and being the ONLY manufacture, can charge whatever the market will bear.

3. Tamiya tanks don’t sell in the same numbers as RC cars, nowhere near it, another reason Tamiya tanks costs.

4. There not that many people who are interested in RC Tanks, even if Tamiya were to lower prices, sales would not go up enough to justify lower prices, Tamiya would lose money on RC Tanks, Tamiya makes most of its money off both static and RC cars, Tamiya is first and foremost an RC Car company, we are very lucky that Tamiya still sells these tanks, they don't have to.

5. Tamiya spends a great deal of effort to get details right, including the smallest, handles, hatches, etc, that too cost money.

6. To make a long story short, if you want a quality, accurate scale model RC Tank 1/16 scale and larger, it will cost money (1/8 scale tanks start at $3,500), these tanks are NOT cheap to make and they don’t sell in large numbers, its an expensive hobby.

Once your HL is finished, post some pix

calvinwill

RE: Dissapointed
 

I agree that the bashing gets old, but as was pointed out, it occurs on the Losi vs AE, Maxx vs Savage and so on. That doesn't make it right, but it is common.

I too own a Heng Long of late, but could certainly afford a Tamiya if I really had been willing to spend the $$. I wanted something I was willing to cut up and drill holes into to suit the appearence I want AND bash around the yard without worrying about breaking an expensive r/c toy. I paid 10% the cost of a Tamiya tank, had fun cutting, patching and modifying it with no concerns of damaging an expensive item and it does what I want as far as performance. Had I screwed up the turret , screw it, a new on is cheap.

So I may have only paid 10% of Tamiya costs, I am confident my Tiger performs at least 50% as good as a Tamiya Tiger and looks (with all due modesty regarding my modelling skill) 75% as good as a Tamiya...sounds like good fun for the $$ to me :)

Enjoy what you have..this is supposed to be about fun and helping each other out!!

RE: Dissapointed
 

They don't sell in the same numbers as cars because they sell them too high. Its a very simple economics story really. That they are or were the only entity making tanks, does not make their pricing model (ie a monopoly) an intelligent one? On the contraire, plastic and metal bearings are just that regardless if it goes into a car kit or a tank kit - period. We will never know how many they would have sold at a reduced price because they priced themselves out of a market that Heng Long was quite happy to fill. I don't mean to blow my horn here, but I do hold a MBA and have had all the QBA and graduate economics classes one would ever want to take. The analysis of the tank market and the pricing decision was incorrect over 10 years ago and incorrect still today.

RE: Dissapointed
 

I agree Jason with what you have said and if to questions such as the ones I posed, negative answers follow, will then so be it. You have the experience with tanks and I do not. I chimed in on what I do know and how much I have payed for simple on the shelf 1/35 scale Tamiyas. I appreciate the effort answering my questions and I may well have a few more before its said and done!

RE: Dissapointed
 

Hello again Templar83

Once again you don't get it, these tanks don't sell in large numbers, not HL, Marui or VS Pro. They don't sell in the millons like rc model cars do and plus there are different companies making similar products, hence lower prices. Once again it must be pointed out to you that Hen Long tanks are toys, they have very low quality control and are not built to scale, they are toys made to sell in large numbers, why don't you understand that? They can be made cheaply because there is no effort. To make anything of quality, no matter what the product, it cost money. Metal bearings are cheap and why? because so many products use them. What about the gearbox or recoil motors or flash units, not to mention DMD control units in the latest Tamiya tanks? I take it you are not familiar with the updated Tamiya tanks, a lot has happened in 10 years since you last seen the inside of a Tamiya tank. And as stated earlier, there aren't that many people interested in model tanks, RC or static, its a minority hobby, big time. Wait a minute, don't you have a $500.00 sailboat? If so, why did you buy it? I'm sure there are toy boats that sell for $69.00. Good grief, I'm tired of this, out here and gone!

I still want to see pix of your HL when its finished

calvinwill

RE: Dissapointed
 

Hi fellow tankers

I too am a HL owner (I have 3 tigers and a Pershing) and although I could afford a Tamiya I chose not to as I wanted to modify (butcher :)) them to my taste. I would have been too terrified to do this with a Tamiya given the very high cost and fear of ruining it. I am happy that I have to do a few corrections to get the HL looking right (mantlet, gun length, stowage box shape etc) but I find this part of the fun along with the challenge of the electronics. Additionally, my kids play with a couple of them and I have no real fear of them being damaged as if they are they are easy to fix and do not cost an arm and a leg - I would a nervous wreck letting them near a Tamiya.

I can see the merits of the Tamiya and understand other folks reasons for wanting them but at present I am happy with my HL.

I will add another point that may cause some frowns from other members but this is not pointed at anybody in this forum so do not get on at me for picking at folks. I have seen some Tamiya tanks that are very poorly finished. They are badly built and painted and look awful. They are just as (un)reliable as a HL and in some cases a lot less so due to poor workmanship by the builder. I am regualry told my HLs look superb and a lot of folk who are not in the RC tank hobby cannot believe that my one cost an awful lot less than the Tam one. While I admit a well finished Tamiya Tiger looks awsome, a well sorted HL can also look very good, and in some ways is more of a challenge to get to that level - just like many of the very well presented HL ones in this site that never fail to impress. MY point here is that although some may say you cannot polish a turd, I believe you can still get a good shine on it with some effort :D.

Everybody is entitled to their view and should be able to express it without fear of an attack from other parties - after all that is what our real armies are fighting for every day. We all need to lighten up and enjoy this hobby as it really is a good bit of fun.

Less of the HL bashing and less of the Tam bashing. Each have their place in society albeit a different place.

I will now get off my soap box and get back to spraying my latest project.

Gorehound

RE: Dissapointed
 

Ok, for my two cents worth, here are my thoughts...
I have over the last 2 years had a Tamiya Pershing, Sherman, and Tiger 1 of which I still have the Tiger. I also have had 2 T-34s one of which has been scratched into a T-44 and is still in my inventory along with 2 more still in the box 34s, soon to be another 44 and su-100. I just recently picked up the panther from H/L.
All of my tanks have Tamiya electronic and combat systems in them, and are for those trips to Danville and our local battles on the weekends. All have various mods done to them to make them combat ready, combat systems, speed, etc.
As for my opinion, as hobby shop owner and a r/c flyer/driver/tanker all of these tanks has good and bad qualities. The Tamiya tanks have to have speeds adjusted and other minor mods done to make them reliable and legal to fight, but the combat system adapts easily and works OK. As with real tanks the tracks on the Tamiya tanks have a nasty habit of making you a pill-box at the worst possible times, but we all know that and drive to avoid it from happening.
The msw T-34s (my personal favorite) have their own short falls. First you have to rip out all the electronics and use tamiya pershing electronics to get all the right moves and sounds. The arms are weak and have to be replace or modified to work and I do not care for the stock trannys and switched mine out. I do know alot of guys use the stock ones and have had success with them. Final opinion is I am happy with the scale and the operation of these tanks after my mods.
Now for the H/L Panther, Same same, rip out the cheap electronics and installed Tamiya Tiger 1 electronics. I like the trannys they come with and after 3 heavy battles (30-45minutes each) this week-end they look good. Don't like the plastic drive sprockets and the arms are weak like the 34, but they did well in the dirt. Had to mod the wheel so they are in the right pattern and molded inserts for the inner wheel so they were not just hollow plastic wheels. Modified the front so that the front plate sloped all the way down instead of having the flat topped front end.(easy mod) The tanks is too wide by about an inch, but length and height are close. The turret is over-sized (really over) but left plenty of room for the elevation, recoil, a camera, and the combat system in it. Overall it does OK on the field.
Final point in my opinion is these are what you make them, i.e. Hobby. If I was just playing around, which most people do they are all OK. With the T-34s and the H/L being inexpensive. They have their niche and fill it. If you want a combat tank then they just like the Tamiya can get expensive. I have almost as much in my T-34, 44 and Panther as I did in my Sherman and Pershing by the time I had them Combat ready.
Anyways I try to keep things in perspective and have fun. Repair when I need to and try to shoot all the others.

RE: Dissapointed
 

I don't understand while the henlong owners are getting so bitter and twisted about whats being said. For me, this argument is about the conflicting info given to potential new rc tankers about the best way to get started in the hobby.

Simply if we advise someone to start with a henlong, there is a good chance they will get frustrated and throw it away, and forget about the hobby. But if they buy a tamiya, they have a lifelong hobby to look forward to, and an heirloom to pass onto their kids.

Now,if after listening to all the pros and cons, they decide, or can only afford a henlong, thats up to them,like templar did and I wish them luck.

Templar, can I suggest you buy a tank first and aquire some knowledge about the hobby before you start lecturing us !

RE: Dissapointed
 

I like hl's price and besides they shoot, how cool is that!!! Most of us don't have the money or the time to build show class tanks. Well at least I don't. I just want something to have fun with and I think the majority of us here feel the same way. Tamiya's tanks are incredible but I'd be scared to take it through mud, snow, rain or any of the elements. Besides did I mention Hl's shoot. If tamiya's were cheaper hell ya I'd buy one over a Hl, but as for now I'll beat up my cheapo's and have fun.

RE: Dissapointed
 

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to add my two bob's worth........as a newbie to RC tanking (not RC modelling)
I can honestly say that the Heng Long tanks have been the inspiration behind my interest.
I now have 4 HL tanks,with various features and all perform great and I drive them hard outside.....if they break, I will fix them and cheaply too.............I also have a Tamiya King Tiger kit which I picked up cheaply and good as it is, is still in the box since I can't get the time or enthusiasm for it (yet).

There is no way on earth I would pay the full extortionate price of a Tamiya....quality or not....the HL tanks have it about right price wise and the fact that the models are modular, means that one can develop all sorts of other projects that would not be possible otherwise....I am currently converting the WSN T34 to HL control with S & S and BB shooting and enjoying every bit of it.

I also think Tamiya have missed a trick here and should follow HL with there modular approach.

Also, the competition that HL tanks present will put pressure on Tamiya to expand there product range and reduce prices, surely to all our benefit.

I hope this this forum continues in the excellent spirit that it has been up to now and we can all look forward to some great tanking projects..........

Cheers

CaptainB

RE: Dissapointed
 

Hey calvinhill , I would appreciate you closing your pie hole and you can wait till eternity if you think I am going to ever send you pictures of anything. I am not missing the point and do not care one bit for your smug condescending attitude. If you don't understand economics and haven't studied complex pricing structures, then perhaps you shouldn't discuss it. And, for the record, I have. That said, I am not saying with absolute certainty that I am correct. Rather, I am offering an opinion and apparently you can't handle one counter to your own. My thesis is interesting and you haven't offered up anything to negate it. It would be one thing if the cars were very expensive - they aren't. Of course, competition leads to reduced prices - we all undestand that. But how much did it cost Tamiya to make these kits? What is their profit margin per tank? Had these been around $200 10 years ago, I would have certainly bought one. Instead of making say $100 off of me (throwing out that the cost of production is a hypothetical $100), they aimed for $400 and as a result got neither. And, 10 years ago, there were no special units and the tanks were still 500. And as for the Seawind comment, though it is 470 or so at Tower, I was able to get a steal deal on ebay for 300. A seawind is every bit worth 300.

I have been in this for a very long time and its interesting that many apparently agree with me but but by all means, continue to hammer away in your fruitless manner. Oh, as for you tankduel, I suppose you are saying I can't have or state opinions until I actually buy a tank? Well, I actually have 12 tanks, 6 Shermans and 6 Panthers. They are part of a board game from long ago and I can remotely control all of them. Now can I talk? And I don't think you apparently understand the diffence between a lecture and a thought provoking discussion.

As I said in maybe my second post on this site, apparently a few of you have stock in Tamiya. I was reserving my judgement but now I clearly see that those who have commented about the smugness of a few of you Tamiya tank owners, is clearly well founded. Since your Tamiya tank is so wonderful and can do so many things, I am wondering if it is capable of firing a little Preparation H where it belongs - it probably can.

I am done with this thread!

RE: Dissapointed
 

Last addendum - after further research, I see the Tamiya is not actually capable of shooting, so you will have to get a Heng Long to help with firing that Preparation H salvo where its needed afterall.

RE: Dissapointed
 

HAHAHA, you think owning tabletop tanks qualifies you to talk about 1/16th scale tanks; man, you DESERVE henlong.

RE: Dissapointed
 

there are 2 groups of people new to this Hobby
1. love tank, with little money
2. love tank, with money, but do not know what to buy.
all my advice to stop from HL is for second group. because I do not want you pay lot of money to learn it hardway.
to the first group, you just have wait until they have money. McDonald is junk food, everybody knows, but still lot of people buying. same thing here.

there are 2 groups of people in this hobby:
1. love anything with tracks, as long as it run fast, especially it can shoot, they are happy.
2. love the history about tank, care about the details, the running and accuracy.
all my advice to stop from HL is for second group. I know the defference. HL will not give the satisfaction. to the first group, they will crash it even you give a tamiya to them.

there are 2 groups of people in this hobby,
1. love sth blindly, they love HL because they just have HL and never even saw a tamiya one.
2. they love one thing with reason, after comparing, they will say I love tamiya over HL because tamiya one give all details and accuracy. or they say I love HL because it is cheap.
all my advice to stop from HL is fro second group. tamiya is expensive for a reason, they did the all research, they produce the models with fine details, they designed all electronics for light and sound effects. HL just copied tamiya mold. crap electronics. crap details, even the workiing suspension is wrong. to the first group, they will love tamiya blindly after they own a tamiya.

I know lot of more people will hate me:(

RE: Dissapointed
 

You're kidding right - I mean you knew that was a joke right? Humor - you know - making light of the listing of how many tanks each person has etc.. My, I sure hope you knew that was humor.

RE: Dissapointed
 

Well put Tom, but I'm sure this will start another round. LMAO

Nice site by the way, wish my tanks look half as good!