Deadsticking a spitfire!!!
08-17-2003, 12:14 PM
#26
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Deadsticking a spitfire!!!
Last time I crashed a model airplane was 1996. I have had a couple of ugly landings that gave me some scuffed tips on our paved runway. In 1993 I had a guy in a pattern plane fly through my Cub from behind. That was a total loss, I was on final to land. Who knows, I might crash today. While learning to fly I know I crashed my Sig Kadet almost daily.
Full scale you ask? Hmm, I have had instrument failures on approach at least twice and enroute a few times. I have had one total engine failure in 1994 or 1995 I believe. Yes, wouldn't you know it was on departure. 300 feet agl 105 kt in a C182. I broke all the rules and performed a stall turn with my stored energy. (not a full hammerhead as I did not go to a verticle line) I made a safe, if not ugly, downwind landing. Winds were quartering at 20G25. Yes, I fly aerobatics (flew, as I have not in a couple summers now) and that was my first instinct. I pride the fact that I always adhered to the rule in that plane anyway of 100 kts on deperture until 1000 feet. The townhouses and trees were my other choices. I turned a major news item into a 'call the tug' radio call. Don't think it happened that way? I'll show you my log book from that timeframe. It's smack in the middle of it. PIC in a fullscale warbird, yes I have that too. I learned to fly while in the Navy in 1982.
I no longer fly for a living either and now fly models more often. I find it useful to apply many of the same principles I learned from full scale flying.
I am sorry this drives you crazy and you can't stand it. And I am sorry to hear that you crashed three of your warbirds. I wish you the best of luck for you and your planes.
Full scale you ask? Hmm, I have had instrument failures on approach at least twice and enroute a few times. I have had one total engine failure in 1994 or 1995 I believe. Yes, wouldn't you know it was on departure. 300 feet agl 105 kt in a C182. I broke all the rules and performed a stall turn with my stored energy. (not a full hammerhead as I did not go to a verticle line) I made a safe, if not ugly, downwind landing. Winds were quartering at 20G25. Yes, I fly aerobatics (flew, as I have not in a couple summers now) and that was my first instinct. I pride the fact that I always adhered to the rule in that plane anyway of 100 kts on deperture until 1000 feet. The townhouses and trees were my other choices. I turned a major news item into a 'call the tug' radio call. Don't think it happened that way? I'll show you my log book from that timeframe. It's smack in the middle of it. PIC in a fullscale warbird, yes I have that too. I learned to fly while in the Navy in 1982.
I no longer fly for a living either and now fly models more often. I find it useful to apply many of the same principles I learned from full scale flying.
I am sorry this drives you crazy and you can't stand it. And I am sorry to hear that you crashed three of your warbirds. I wish you the best of luck for you and your planes.
08-18-2003, 02:50 PM
#29
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Engine outs......
Chopper/..Et Al.....I agree with your consensus in general about the basics of engine out procedures......I think full scale pilots "Can"( not always necessarily) have an edge on other RC pilots dealing with these kinds of problems .....I fly lots of warbirds and as you know we dont stay at one altitude too often..........low passes, gaggles. some mild aerobatic maneuvers are common during flights.....so engine failures can happen @ in unfavorable flight profiles........recognizing the engine out is "very" important...thats how some get into trouble....they loose airspeed before noticing the eng, failure......Keep wings level and keep bank angles to a minimum....at all costs keep nose down to keep airspeed up.......a good point to bring up is most flying fields have some areas not suited for landings......avoid those areas if possible.......also choose to land into the wind if thats feasible.....If an engine fails near the ground (I.E. on T/O or on final) ....landing with the wings level is the best scenario for least damage or possibly no damage at all....its OK if a runway landing isnt possible....minor damage is way better than a rekitted airplane........Juvatwad.......Sir I respectfully disagree......Our RC airplanes fly under the same aerodynamic principles as the larger full scale......therefore subjecting them to the same flying characteristics......I found the "Best" success employing the same rules used for full scale and applying them to RC airplanes......I've had several engine out situations with my Ziroli Corsair and Ziroli P-47....with several forced landings off the runway with no damage.......so it is up to the pilot to maintain control of his (her) aircraft.....no matter what happens in the skys above.......Bill
08-18-2003, 04:32 PM
#30
Deadsticking a spitfire!!!
RC planes the same as full scale? No, not really, but yes, indeed. I apply the same disciplines that I learned to get my private ticket to flying RC and low and behold, I did not lose any planes.
The models have opposite design characteristics to the full scale (power to weight is the big one) but I use the same procedures when an emergency occurs. I also pre-flight and use a checklist.
I do a lot of low level flybys but always have a plane to execute if I lose an engine. Either lay it strait and land it or gain altitude for a go a round.
The simulator as been a big help in practicing many different combinations of problems when losing an engine at low altitude.
I have found the .40 GP Mustang and Corsair fly without an engine just like any other sport model. These two planes, along with my old Jemco Mustang, were *****cats without an engine.
The TF Mustang and Royal Corsair, however, yup, need to plan your flight and make room for error, these two planes without and engine become less forgiving, but when using applied principal, usually can be landed on the numbers.
Lately, I have been flying like other modelers, basically by the seat of my pants, and have lost two planes in the past two years.
I am now going back to my "structured" type of flying and let my buddied make fun of me doing a pre-flight on my model Cherokee.
The models have opposite design characteristics to the full scale (power to weight is the big one) but I use the same procedures when an emergency occurs. I also pre-flight and use a checklist.
I do a lot of low level flybys but always have a plane to execute if I lose an engine. Either lay it strait and land it or gain altitude for a go a round.
The simulator as been a big help in practicing many different combinations of problems when losing an engine at low altitude.
I have found the .40 GP Mustang and Corsair fly without an engine just like any other sport model. These two planes, along with my old Jemco Mustang, were *****cats without an engine.
The TF Mustang and Royal Corsair, however, yup, need to plan your flight and make room for error, these two planes without and engine become less forgiving, but when using applied principal, usually can be landed on the numbers.
Lately, I have been flying like other modelers, basically by the seat of my pants, and have lost two planes in the past two years.
I am now going back to my "structured" type of flying and let my buddied make fun of me doing a pre-flight on my model Cherokee.
08-18-2003, 07:52 PM
#31
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Deadsticking a spitfire!!!
This is interesting Chopper I agree with you 100%. I am lucky enough to know a man who fairied warbirds on occasion and ask him what the procedure was for engine out on a W.W.II warbird. His comment was before the 1970's the procedure was bail out, after it was just as Chopper described. The difference being in the value of the plane.
When teaching some one how to handle a war bird the first and last thing we cover is recognizing and handling a stall. Quite often R/C pilots are tough to takeoff and land and no time is spent on stalls (the number one killer of model planes, also known as radio failure). Most recognize a stall starts when the plane begins to spin but with a little practice you can train yourself to recognize the elevator progression just prior to the stall. If you learn to recognize the elevator progression ( you find yourself adding elevator in rapid succession to keep flying) And learn two simple rules: Always keep the energy up! That means unload the wing immediately (down elevator) You will have great luck with dead sticks. I also go clean until I have established a good descent that maintains my speed and am headed back to the runway. Once all those criteria are met and it looks like I am going to make the runway I will extend the gear but only if it looks like I am going to make the runway and only if I have a break to consider it after setting up the optimum glide path. Second rule, fly the plane don't fumble for switches! The focus is flying the plane to the ground safely (that means considering bystanders). Putting the retracts down is an option, if time allows.
Dead stick procedure:
1. Recognize a stall assess why and come to the conclution the engine is out.
2. Make adjustments to keep airspeed up.
3. Assess probable flight path to get to the field.
4. Start flight path. While turning it is hard to track speed accurately so loose more altitude than you think you need just to be safe (rule no 1). Continue to assess your progress plan vs actual, and adjust accordingly.
5. Once the feild is made assess with how much energy will I land. Only if conditions are perfect do thegrar come down. Make only one attempt at the gear, do not get involved with finding the switch, its only a minor detail.
6. Stay in the dive as long as possible, only pulling out at the last minute.
7. If you are on the runway and hot land clean to avoid the inevitable bounce and shorten the role out.
8. If you do not make the field remember to level the wings prior to flairing, then to flair with the intent of stalling the split second prior to impact.
Joe
When teaching some one how to handle a war bird the first and last thing we cover is recognizing and handling a stall. Quite often R/C pilots are tough to takeoff and land and no time is spent on stalls (the number one killer of model planes, also known as radio failure). Most recognize a stall starts when the plane begins to spin but with a little practice you can train yourself to recognize the elevator progression just prior to the stall. If you learn to recognize the elevator progression ( you find yourself adding elevator in rapid succession to keep flying) And learn two simple rules: Always keep the energy up! That means unload the wing immediately (down elevator) You will have great luck with dead sticks. I also go clean until I have established a good descent that maintains my speed and am headed back to the runway. Once all those criteria are met and it looks like I am going to make the runway I will extend the gear but only if it looks like I am going to make the runway and only if I have a break to consider it after setting up the optimum glide path. Second rule, fly the plane don't fumble for switches! The focus is flying the plane to the ground safely (that means considering bystanders). Putting the retracts down is an option, if time allows.
Dead stick procedure:
1. Recognize a stall assess why and come to the conclution the engine is out.
2. Make adjustments to keep airspeed up.
3. Assess probable flight path to get to the field.
4. Start flight path. While turning it is hard to track speed accurately so loose more altitude than you think you need just to be safe (rule no 1). Continue to assess your progress plan vs actual, and adjust accordingly.
5. Once the feild is made assess with how much energy will I land. Only if conditions are perfect do thegrar come down. Make only one attempt at the gear, do not get involved with finding the switch, its only a minor detail.
6. Stay in the dive as long as possible, only pulling out at the last minute.
7. If you are on the runway and hot land clean to avoid the inevitable bounce and shorten the role out.
8. If you do not make the field remember to level the wings prior to flairing, then to flair with the intent of stalling the split second prior to impact.
Joe
08-19-2003, 06:55 PM
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Deadsticking a spitfire!!!
Not meant as a flame or an insult to anybody, but I think when it comes to energy management flying electric pilots are the best.
Most all of my electrics I have to keep the energy up on, and power is more scale. Most gas planes I see are pretty overpowered even if for safety reasons. Too much power isn't a bad thing, but I think it teaches some bad flying techniques.
Especially when I see a 1.20 size P-51 roar off the runway in 20 feet.
A few tips I'd give for avoiding problems in the event of a power loss are. Always setup your turn to final wide so that you can make the turn with less than 30 degree's of bank.
I see many come right down the edge of the runway sling around 180 degree's, and land. Which is ok till the engine dies.
I also tend to make my turn to final where I'm lined up with the runway with lots of altitude, and several runway lengths from the end of the runway. That gives me plenty of safety margin should something happen.
Also any time you stall it's best to get off the sticks. Sudden control inputs just before it actually stalls is a lot of times what causes it to spin.
Of course most of these problems can be avoided if the engine is setup, and running properly. There's no way I'd fly anything much less a scale warbird if the motor was running funny.
So far I've only had to deadstick when I flew so long as to run out of gas.
Also if you find yourself needing to make a turn to final with power out too low, and on the verge of stalling.
Stay off the rudder! If anything feed in a little opposite rudder. The sudden yawing motion at low speed is just what the inside wing needs to tip stall.
So far I haven't tip stalled anything. As far as I'm conscerned it's a strange mythical phenomenon. Then again I like to fly scale pretty much all the time. Even the little acrobtics I do are scale.
Most all of my electrics I have to keep the energy up on, and power is more scale. Most gas planes I see are pretty overpowered even if for safety reasons. Too much power isn't a bad thing, but I think it teaches some bad flying techniques.
Especially when I see a 1.20 size P-51 roar off the runway in 20 feet.
A few tips I'd give for avoiding problems in the event of a power loss are. Always setup your turn to final wide so that you can make the turn with less than 30 degree's of bank.
I see many come right down the edge of the runway sling around 180 degree's, and land. Which is ok till the engine dies.
I also tend to make my turn to final where I'm lined up with the runway with lots of altitude, and several runway lengths from the end of the runway. That gives me plenty of safety margin should something happen.
Also any time you stall it's best to get off the sticks. Sudden control inputs just before it actually stalls is a lot of times what causes it to spin.
Of course most of these problems can be avoided if the engine is setup, and running properly. There's no way I'd fly anything much less a scale warbird if the motor was running funny.
So far I've only had to deadstick when I flew so long as to run out of gas.
Also if you find yourself needing to make a turn to final with power out too low, and on the verge of stalling.
Stay off the rudder! If anything feed in a little opposite rudder. The sudden yawing motion at low speed is just what the inside wing needs to tip stall.
So far I haven't tip stalled anything. As far as I'm conscerned it's a strange mythical phenomenon. Then again I like to fly scale pretty much all the time. Even the little acrobtics I do are scale.
