P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
09-26-2011, 12:37 AM
#226
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
The trim tab failing can absolutely cause what happened. There are 2 tabs on the elevator of a P-51, the pitch trim tab, and a control boost tab. The trim tab coming off could have damaged the boost tab, instigated flutter, or any number of things. Likely what happened is, the trim tab failed, the boost tab went full down, driving the elevator full up. At those speeds, that would create 12 - 14G of pitch up almost instantly, which will put ANYONE to sleep regardless of age. That amount of G also probably overcame the tailwheel up-lock mechanism causing it to extend.
ORIGINAL: kurt2022
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
09-26-2011, 04:02 AM
#227
RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
Yes that was the sequence i watched,on the previous lap the left wing tip stalled briefly and he picked it up quickly by easing off the stick and climbing a bit in the process above rare bear but still rebanking quickly straight after that.I believe what i saw on and before the final turn he made,was a decrease in altitude to gain speed followed by a gentle banking turn to the left at low altitude.As the aircraft skidded he increased the bank and it started to wind in on him so he put full right rudder on and it snapped on the pilot
09-26-2011, 05:09 AM
#228
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
I will only offer this as an opinion and to be sure the experts will trump anything any of us say so here goes. GG just passed the Rare Bare on the back straight. approaching pylon 8 where at a high rate of speed and working hard to avoid the dead line he was already in a high G turn. Still following both Strega and Voodoo, also moving very fast caused extreme wake turbulance,(Bad Air). I think this caused the roll to the left and rapid correction. At this point possibly the trim tab may have fluttered and became ineffective and caused GG to pull up dramatically. Reportedly no change in power setting was evident. At the initial pitch up Jimmy was unconcious and the rest is history. No pilot shown in the cockpit from the side and the back of his helmet visible from the inverted photo.The plane went in naturally without control input from the initial pitch up to the end. I was sitting less than 300 ft. away on the same row of the impact. As there is history in the Voodoo incedent years ago this seems very possible. There are other observations to consider aerodynamically and surely will play a part in ths terrible accident. I have been going for the past 26 years and never once felt in danger any more than any other motor sport. This was a one in a million result to an unfortunate accident. If the races continue next year most of my group of 24 will happily return.
Tom
Tom
09-26-2011, 06:43 AM
#229
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
Here's the theory of the crash from experienced racers.
In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story.
When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level.
The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft immediately went in to a 10G climb, confirmed by the G-meter.
The pilot came to, from the sudden blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness and
was looking at the floor of the airplane. He was able to reach the throttle and pull it back to slow down and was able to recover and land.
In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story.
When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level.
The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft immediately went in to a 10G climb, confirmed by the G-meter.
The pilot came to, from the sudden blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness and
was looking at the floor of the airplane. He was able to reach the throttle and pull it back to slow down and was able to recover and land.
09-26-2011, 06:45 AM
#230
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
Spoken like someone who has NO idea what's going on aerodynamically with the airplane at those speeds.
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
The trim tab failing can absolutely cause what happened. There are 2 tabs on the elevator of a P-51, the pitch trim tab, and a control boost tab. The trim tab coming off could have damaged the boost tab, instigated flutter, or any number of things. Likely what happened is, the trim tab failed, the boost tab went full down, driving the elevator full up. At those speeds, that would create 12 - 14G of pitch up almost instantly, which will put ANYONE to sleep regardless of age. That amount of G also probably overcame the tailwheel up-lock mechanism causing it to extend.
ORIGINAL: kurt2022
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
09-26-2011, 08:32 AM
#231
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
Remember this plane had no air scoop on the bottom producing less drag possibly requiring more down trim and it was reported the right trim tab was fixed at neutral.
T
T
09-26-2011, 09:10 AM
#232
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Have you ever flown aircraft at those speeds ? Well, I have and well above them !! Enough said ......... simple, simple !!
Have you ever flown aircraft at those speeds ? Well, I have and well above them !! Enough said ......... simple, simple !!
And to answer your question, yes.. I have.
09-26-2011, 09:15 AM
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Have you ever flown aircraft at those speeds ? Well, I have and well above them !! Enough said ......... simple, simple !!
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
Spoken like someone who has NO idea what's going on aerodynamically with the airplane at those speeds.
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
The trim tab failing can absolutely cause what happened. There are 2 tabs on the elevator of a P-51, the pitch trim tab, and a control boost tab. The trim tab coming off could have damaged the boost tab, instigated flutter, or any number of things. Likely what happened is, the trim tab failed, the boost tab went full down, driving the elevator full up. At those speeds, that would create 12 - 14G of pitch up almost instantly, which will put ANYONE to sleep regardless of age. That amount of G also probably overcame the tailwheel up-lock mechanism causing it to extend.
ORIGINAL: kurt2022
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
09-26-2011, 09:38 AM
#234
RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
I returned from Reno a week ago today, but have been catching up since then. Here are pictures of 2 planes, one (the P-51) and another which I call the eggster. My son and wife got together earlier this year and bought main grandstand reserved seats and pit passes for the Air Races. From the photos and videos that I have seen, the plane went in just in front of where we would have been. By virtue of the race and air show schedule, we were there on Wednesday and Thursday, to photograph the practice and the show that the Air Force Thunderbirds put on. I was surprised that they were not there for the weekend, but had another show booked. In any case, my son and I decided to take in lake Tahoe on Friday and were not at the races. If we had been, we would have been there for the unlimiteds and witnessed the event, since that is the class we went to watch in addition to the jets.
It was a sad day for us and we found out by text messages sent to my son when we were at Tahoe and Squaw Valley. At around 5pm he started getting them from his friends where he lives now, asking if we were all right. That is how we found out, and when we returned that evening, we watched most of the news reports on local Reno TV. I don't have any more insight to those that have posted here, but wanted to post, probably one of the last, pictures of the Galloping Ghost. I took it Thursday evening in the pits after the races ended. The other picture is of the (eggster) on take off, just 10-15 seconds before he put it into the dirt on Thursday. Although lost in the tragedy of Friday, this plane lost power on take-off and the pilot slid it into the brush and sand just off the runway. Luckily, he was ok and will go on to race again.
I have been attending airshows since I was in my teens and I know the risks. This is the first accident involving spectators at Reno in 48 years and I hope the powers that be take that into consideration. We are planning to attend again in 2 years when it will be the 50th anniversary. It is the risk you take when you live your life and if you enjoy any activity, in my opinion. I would go again tomorrow and be aware and conscious of the possiblities, but also aware of the odds.
Our thoughts and prayers include Jimmy and others that lose their lives in pursuit of something they love to do.
It was a sad day for us and we found out by text messages sent to my son when we were at Tahoe and Squaw Valley. At around 5pm he started getting them from his friends where he lives now, asking if we were all right. That is how we found out, and when we returned that evening, we watched most of the news reports on local Reno TV. I don't have any more insight to those that have posted here, but wanted to post, probably one of the last, pictures of the Galloping Ghost. I took it Thursday evening in the pits after the races ended. The other picture is of the (eggster) on take off, just 10-15 seconds before he put it into the dirt on Thursday. Although lost in the tragedy of Friday, this plane lost power on take-off and the pilot slid it into the brush and sand just off the runway. Luckily, he was ok and will go on to race again.
I have been attending airshows since I was in my teens and I know the risks. This is the first accident involving spectators at Reno in 48 years and I hope the powers that be take that into consideration. We are planning to attend again in 2 years when it will be the 50th anniversary. It is the risk you take when you live your life and if you enjoy any activity, in my opinion. I would go again tomorrow and be aware and conscious of the possiblities, but also aware of the odds.
Our thoughts and prayers include Jimmy and others that lose their lives in pursuit of something they love to do.
09-26-2011, 11:06 AM
#235
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: dasintex
11 People have died and you guys are debating over trim, boost, whatever tabs, aerodynamics, who has flown what planes at what frigging speed, etc, etc..yada yada...does it MATTER...NO!...OMG Get a life!
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Have you ever flown aircraft at those speeds ? Well, I have and well above them !! Enough said ......... simple, simple !!
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
Spoken like someone who has NO idea what's going on aerodynamically with the airplane at those speeds.
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
The trim tab failing can absolutely cause what happened. There are 2 tabs on the elevator of a P-51, the pitch trim tab, and a control boost tab. The trim tab coming off could have damaged the boost tab, instigated flutter, or any number of things. Likely what happened is, the trim tab failed, the boost tab went full down, driving the elevator full up. At those speeds, that would create 12 - 14G of pitch up almost instantly, which will put ANYONE to sleep regardless of age. That amount of G also probably overcame the tailwheel up-lock mechanism causing it to extend.
ORIGINAL: kurt2022
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
The reports of the elevator trim tab causing the crash make no sense to me because the main elevator would have easily overcome its loss, I think! I wonder if the whole elevator was fluttering and about to come apart which made the elevator unresponsive. I don't fly my rc planes at 500mph so I'm not sure about this theory but would like to hear some input on this,
Trim tabs / boost tabs are SECONDARY flight controls. PRIMARIES should be full operational regardless.
09-26-2011, 11:56 AM
#237
RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
11 People have died and you guys are debating over trim, boost, whatever tabs, aerodynamics, who has flown what planes at what frigging speed, etc, etc..yada yada...does it MATTER...NO!...OMG Get a life!
09-26-2011, 12:05 PM
#238
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: hookedonrc
I returned from Reno a week ago today, but have been catching up since then. Here are pictures of 2 planes, one (the P-51) and another which I call the eggster. My son and wife got together earlier this year and bought main grandstand reserved seats and pit passes for the Air Races. From the photos and videos that I have seen, the plane went in just in front of where we would have been. By virtue of the race and air show schedule, we were there on Wednesday and Thursday, to photograph the practice and the show that the Air Force Thunderbirds put on. I was surprised that they were not there for the weekend, but had another show booked. In any case, my son and I decided to take in lake Tahoe on Friday and were not at the races. If we had been, we would have been there for the unlimiteds and witnessed the event, since that is the class we went to watch in addition to the jets.
It was a sad day for us and we found out by text messages sent to my son when we were at Tahoe and Squaw Valley. At around 5pm he started getting them from his friends where he lives now, asking if we were all right. That is how we found out, and when we returned that evening, we watched most of the news reports on local Reno TV. I don't have any more insight to those that have posted here, but wanted to post, probably one of the last, pictures of the Galloping Ghost. I took it Thursday evening in the pits after the races ended. The other picture is of the (eggster) on take off, just 10-15 seconds before he put it into the dirt on Thursday. Although lost in the tragedy of Friday, this plane lost power on take-off and the pilot slid it into the brush and sand just off the runway. Luckily, he was ok and will go on to race again.
I have been attending airshows since I was in my teens and I know the risks. This is the first accident involving spectators at Reno in 48 years and I hope the powers that be take that into consideration. We are planning to attend again in 2 years when it will be the 50th anniversary. It is the risk you take when you live your life and if you enjoy any activity, in my opinion. I would go again tomorrow and be aware and conscious of the possiblities, but also aware of the odds.
Our thoughts and prayers include Jimmy and others that lose their lives in pursuit of something they love to do.
I returned from Reno a week ago today, but have been catching up since then. Here are pictures of 2 planes, one (the P-51) and another which I call the eggster. My son and wife got together earlier this year and bought main grandstand reserved seats and pit passes for the Air Races. From the photos and videos that I have seen, the plane went in just in front of where we would have been. By virtue of the race and air show schedule, we were there on Wednesday and Thursday, to photograph the practice and the show that the Air Force Thunderbirds put on. I was surprised that they were not there for the weekend, but had another show booked. In any case, my son and I decided to take in lake Tahoe on Friday and were not at the races. If we had been, we would have been there for the unlimiteds and witnessed the event, since that is the class we went to watch in addition to the jets.
It was a sad day for us and we found out by text messages sent to my son when we were at Tahoe and Squaw Valley. At around 5pm he started getting them from his friends where he lives now, asking if we were all right. That is how we found out, and when we returned that evening, we watched most of the news reports on local Reno TV. I don't have any more insight to those that have posted here, but wanted to post, probably one of the last, pictures of the Galloping Ghost. I took it Thursday evening in the pits after the races ended. The other picture is of the (eggster) on take off, just 10-15 seconds before he put it into the dirt on Thursday. Although lost in the tragedy of Friday, this plane lost power on take-off and the pilot slid it into the brush and sand just off the runway. Luckily, he was ok and will go on to race again.
I have been attending airshows since I was in my teens and I know the risks. This is the first accident involving spectators at Reno in 48 years and I hope the powers that be take that into consideration. We are planning to attend again in 2 years when it will be the 50th anniversary. It is the risk you take when you live your life and if you enjoy any activity, in my opinion. I would go again tomorrow and be aware and conscious of the possiblities, but also aware of the odds.
Our thoughts and prayers include Jimmy and others that lose their lives in pursuit of something they love to do.
Very nice Post. And thank you for those nice pictures.
I agree. Let the races continue, I know Jim would have wanted it that way.
Pete
09-26-2011, 12:56 PM
#239
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: saramos
I was reviewing the Vemio video this evening. There is a audible pop that acompanies the moment of failure, or rather, just after the first visible signs of the failure, which can be accounted for by the distance to the event and the speed of sound. To me, it sounds like a small piece of metal breaking under tension, perhaps a bold or cable or other linkage device. The sound occurs at the end of 7:38 in the regular speed footage, at the end of 7:48 in the slow motion footage, and at about half way through 8:14 in the super slow motion footage.
Scott
I was reviewing the Vemio video this evening. There is a audible pop that acompanies the moment of failure, or rather, just after the first visible signs of the failure, which can be accounted for by the distance to the event and the speed of sound. To me, it sounds like a small piece of metal breaking under tension, perhaps a bold or cable or other linkage device. The sound occurs at the end of 7:38 in the regular speed footage, at the end of 7:48 in the slow motion footage, and at about half way through 8:14 in the super slow motion footage.
Scott
09-26-2011, 02:22 PM
#240
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: dasintex
Whatever...and it's 'Discuss' not 'Discuse'!
Whatever...and it's 'Discuss' not 'Discuse'!
Lets all forget about the accident. Lets all forget about the flight controls. Lets all forget about the speeds.
Why you ask ?
Well, because it now appears that we have entered into the " Spelling Contest Mode " .............
09-26-2011, 03:37 PM
#241
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Lets all forget about the accident. Lets all forget about the flight controls. Lets all forget about the speeds.
Why you ask ?
Well, because it now appears that we have entered into the '' Spelling Contest Mode '' .............
ORIGINAL: dasintex
Whatever...and it's 'Discuss' not 'Discuse'!
Whatever...and it's 'Discuss' not 'Discuse'!
Lets all forget about the accident. Lets all forget about the flight controls. Lets all forget about the speeds.
Why you ask ?
Well, because it now appears that we have entered into the '' Spelling Contest Mode '' .............
Yes, RCU has their share of "Spell Nazi's." And they usually come out when they don't like a opinion, and they look for ways to attack or insult a person when they are annoyed. They can't correct the person in a PM or E-mail, noooo that's way to difficult. It's way more easy to do it in the middle of a Thread to try and embarrass or put down someone else.
I'm glad I'm not that anal retentive.
Pete
09-26-2011, 04:57 PM
#243
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RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
ORIGINAL: Eyedr12
You meant ''THEIR'', right?[X(]
You meant ''THEIR'', right?[X(]
There you go, I proved my point. I do have a PM and we can discuss it you know? Sieg Heil!
Pete
09-27-2011, 02:07 PM
#245
RE: P_51 Mustang crashes into crowds at Reno
Ok guys, this has gone too far. While we like to allow discussion about topics in General Aviation such as this because of the very nature of the incident. But in the end this isn't RC related. And since many here have shown that they can't discuss this topic in a mature and civil manner I'm going to put this one to bed. I'm closing down this thread.
Ken
