CorsairJock

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OK, I'm gonna start what I know will be a viscous fight here. Some of those Mustang buffs have laid claim that the Mustang 'changed the war'. I replied that altho they did, other types of aircraft have also, and maybe even more than the Mustang. To clarify, let's interpret 'chaneged the war' as meaning had the greatest impact on the outcome.

Now I am of course am a huge Corsair fan, but I am willing to admit that the Hellcat had more of an impact than the Corsair in WW II. Actually, there are a lot of aircraft types that 'changed the war', but let's limit this poll on to the 2 top U.S. fighter contenders in the European theatre ( I don't want to 'Nader the poll'). As for the P-38, there is no doubt in my mind that it would also have to be included IF we were to take the entire war into account (Pacific theatre AND European threatre). And there are probably valid arguments for other as well, especially if we include foreign made aircraft such as the Spitfire, Hurricane, Stormovik (spelling?), etc. And then there are the bombers, patrol planes, even the C-47 (I think that was Ike's pick).

I would like to see comments regarding top speeds, manuverability, climbs rates, and anything else which might make one a better dogfighter and/ or attack aircraft. And before we get a whole bunch of remarks on range, I'm sure anybody who knows anything about these 2 aircraft will give a very decided advantage to the Mustang. But what other advantages did the Mustang have over the Thunderbolt, and what advantages did the Thunderbolt have over the Mustang, which areas are they pretty much equal?

Note, the order of the listed aircraft in the poll was determined by numerical order.
Also, I have my own opinion on these 2, but will stay out of the voting.

So, all you P-47 and P-51 buffs, and/ orWW II history buffs, let's try and determine which of these 2 had more of an impact on the outcome of WW II, interms of bring the war to a quicker end. And let's see how much you guys REALLY know about your aircraft.

GPaloz

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OK I'll bite. The better of the two overall would be the P51. More versatil in all rolls it played. G.

Doug D.

The P-51 had the range and got all the glory.
The P-47 went into battle first and did most of the grunt work.
They complemented each other in many ways. And I don't think the war would have been won without the both of them.
[&:]

rcamp

I would have to disagree with Gpolaz in one role. The P47 was a far better ground attack craft than the P51. The engine of the P51 was susceptible to even small arms fire, one hit in a coolant line or radiator and it was finished for the day if not for the war. The P47 was a much stouter craft in that respect and I believe able to carry a heavier load of ordance.

F4U Killer

I have not study either as in depth as I should. But I will make a comment anyway.
I have an on-line game that I play that is not as realistic as one want's. But with that said you still develop the same Tactic as was used in WWII.

My Vote goes to the 51 for a couple of reasons. The first one is obvious. The fact the 51 could fly the distance needed to escort the Bombers.
The second is the 51 was a pure Energy Fighter. By this I mean you kept your speed up and did a slashing attack on your opponent you then cleared your 6 and went back for another pass. This was suited to fighting the Germans high energy fighters.
The 51 also carried it's Energy better after it made it's attack. This allowing it to extend.
I believe this is one of the reasons the Stallion was not very significant in the Pacific due to the fact it was not suited to the turn fighting with the nimble Japanese planes.

The 47 was a down and dirty fighter. It carried the same radial the Corsair did.
Which made the 47 become a behemoth to fly the Radial the same, as the Corsair having to become a behemoth to fly the motor as well.

The 47 was better suited to a Stall/Turnfighting, than the 51 was. Now keep in mind the Germans would use the slashing attacks on the 47.
So as the 47 was turning to counter the German attack it was losing energy.
The German plane shot and flew off, clear his 6 and came back as the 47 pilot was trying to counter the next pass.

I believe the P47 did more in controlling the Ground War than the P51 could ever think of doing.
For one the Motors had much to do with the ground attack advantage and also the Guns. The p47 had 8 50's versus the 6 in the P51. A clear advantage in Fire Power.


With all this said.
I have not read much about the P47, but I have read more about the debate between the Corsair and the P51.
The later model Corsair was slightly faster than the P51 by just a slight advantage in level flight. But the 51 carried it's Energy better in a climb.
I think if you read this debate on the P51/Corsair and just substituded the P47 for the Corsair name you would see the distinctions between the two planes.

This just my opinion and has no basis on real life

rc34074

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the p51 was the fighter that was used to escort the bombers, and its performance was clearly superior against the german fighters. this enabled the destruction of much of the german industry and enabled the daylight bombing of germany to continue. this destruction was very important in minimizing the numbers of tanks the germans could turn out, although the germans were able to disperse their fighter production and even increased it. the p51 also was instrumental in destroying many of the german fighters that attacked the bombers. especially important was that in destroying these planes they also killed many of the experienced german fighter pilots.

so the result was that the p51 was the key to air supremacy in europe. so the allied ground forces were not attacked very much by the germans, although they still did this some. the p47 was clearly unable to turn with the german fighters when first introduced. so they were reduced to "boom and zoom" tactics as f4ukiller describes.

the p47 was an awesome ground attack plane, ad later in the war was improved so it was able to better compete with the german planes. but if you were picking the war winner it was clearly the p51.

the p51 was able to fight the german fighters because it was able to turn with the german fighters and it outclimbed the 109g. this is described in the books written by the ww2 fighter pilots.

i have a couple of books that tell a lot about these planes. one is called "ACES" and is a compilation of actual dogfight/combat reports written by the ww2 aces. these reports show that the p51 could turn with the german 109s and even the 190s if the flaps and power were set correctly. a number of these reports describe fights where the mustang pilots went into turn fights and outturned the german fighters, although a number of reports also describe fights where they used the energy method to "boom and zoom" them. at one time i thought the energy method was the only way they could effectively fight but it is clear that the p51 could turn very well if the pilot handled it properly.

the other book is gabby gabreski's book about his ww2 career. he flew p47s, and he describes a number of his fights. i believe he is one of the top us p47 aces- maybe even the top us ace- in the p47. anyway he describes these fights as f4ukiller does- except later in the war they got the paddle blade prop for the p47. this made a big difference in its turn fight capability and he then was able to turn with the german fighters in his p47. so after they got this prop the p47 also could turn with the german planes especiallty at ground level where they did most of their fighting later in the war.

the real interesting comaprison should be made between the hellcat and the p51. the hellcat was a muhc better turn fighter than the corsair and in fact could turn with the zeros. the corsair was faster by a few mph. but the hellcat was credited with far more kills than the corsair.

ed

Peter_OZ

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Guys,
I'll jump in with both feet here and please shoot me down if I'm wrong in my opinion - no dought you will anyway!

From what I have read the P47 was the first allied fighter able to follow the bombers in and out for most of their journey. I know the P51 is credited with this but beleive that the 47 did it first while the 51 was deciding if it wanted to be a rolls royce or a cadillac!

the 51 was very fast in the dive and in straight and level flight compared to other fighters due largely to the laminar flow wing. However down low and and in a climb at low levels it was stodgy old girl.

Not sure what the 47 was like low and in the climb but as the corsair was also stodgy in climb 47 is probably the same.

As to which was the better plane I read somewhere that piolts often joked that if you wanted to pose for your best girl that you sat on the wing of a P51 - if you wanted to go home to that girl then you sat in the cockpit of a P47!

Only vice I have heard about the P47 was the fact it had a tendency to lose the fuel tank behind the pilot in dive attack pullouts which caused fuel to spill all over a red hot supercharger. By all accounts they thought at first that this was caused by ground fire and it was not until later they found out that the rubber mounts holding this fuel tank were failing under high G pullouts.

anyway guess I have stirred the pot a little

cheers
Peter

kram51

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Hi guys. Peter you're mostly right about the T-Bolt's range. It did escort the bombers, yes, but even with drop tanks it couldn't make it as far as the bombers had to go. The Germans knew this and would simply wait until the P-47's had to turn back and then pounce on the bomber formations. The Mustang had the ability to go anywhere in Germany with the bombers, fight on equal terms with the Luftwaffe, and return to England. This makes the Mustang unique among its contemporaries. It's low level performance wasn't that great whereas the P-47 excelled in the ground attack role. It could hold its own against German fighters as well, in the hands of an experienced pilot. It is true the Mustang could be easily damaged by ground fire but it wasn't designed for that role. Its sole purpose in the war was high altitude, long range bomber escort. NO fighter in the war was more suited to its role than the P-51 Mustang!!! Mark (I'll fix that ENTER key yet . . . .)

Peter_OZ

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true if I can add one comment, wasnt the P51 originally intedned as a point defence & ground attack plane for the British originally? It took a lot of persuasion for the USAAF to adopt it and then to ultimately mate if with the merlin - now if it had the latter version of the Griffon that would have been VERY interesting

my point on the escort role of the p47 was that it was the first to be used and give the bombers some real protection, in fact paved the way in tactics etc for the 51

cheers
Peter

kram51

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Yes Pete, you're correct in that the USAAF wasn't as interested in the Mustang until it was mated with the Merlin. The reason was, they were looking for the escort that could go with the bombers. That meant it had to not only be fast, able to fight, but do so after flying at high altitudes for several hours. Once the Mustang was married to the Merlin it quickly relegated all other fighters to other roles. The point is the Mustang, when finally fitted with the Merlin, not only was adequate but excelled in a role that no other fighter of the day could match. It was the combination of all those elements that made the Mustang indispensable to the Allies, more so than any other fighter. Think of it this way. Were there other planes that could fulfill the ground attack role of the P-47? Yes, there are several that come to mind. Now answer the same question with regards to the ultimate role of the Mustang. Was there any other plane that could duplicate the role of the Mustang? If there was I don't know about it . . .

Peter_OZ

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G'day Kram,
I don't either but lets look at it from a different angle, or more to the point the orginal question of this thread. Lets look at it form the viewpoint of the pimple faced, burger munching 18 yo waist gunner from Nowheresville South Dakota.
The P47 pioneered the techniques of long range escort and ask a bomber crewman what he felt when he first saw those Jugs parked around him and flying top cover after so many missions of being on your own all the way in and out. I'm sure they would have agreed the Jug "changed the war" for them as it meant they had a chance of surviving the war.

No dought the 51 was the escort par excellence in that role but the Jug ultimately set the bar - 51 did raise it to a new level. Further in those early days there were no 51s. Just Jugs and the odd Spitifre till it ran out of legs just over the coast of France.

The 51 may have been the best long range escort, no arguement there at all. My point is the 17s were being slaughtered every day and the allied daylight bombing campaign come VERY close to failing on these losses. The public back in the States if they then had CNN would have strung the goverment out by their bollocks. What the 47 did was to stem that slaughter till the premiere daylight long range escort - the P51 was avaialble in numbers to stem the tide and turn it the aliees way.

Remember it is little points like this that actually "changed the course" of the war.
cheers
Peter

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Since neither were available in operational units until February, 1944, let's point out that the P38 could have filled the escort role, had adequate resources been devoted to it. Even better, had Lockheed ever been permitted to install the Merlin.

As it was, the P38 was THE long distance fighter of the war, until 1944, and the two highest scoring American aces in WWII both were Lightning jocks.

If you were flying a fighter with stars & bars before 1944, your best bet was if it was the P38, and it could have changed the war earlier, with the Merlin. As it was, with inadequate numbers and with the Allison engine, it managed to perform superbly in the North African and Pacific theaters. With the right fuel, or the Merlin, it could have done the same for the European theater - in 1943.

Not to denigrate the Jug or the Mustang, but I'm awful glad the boys at Lockheed were ahead of the curve, back then.

Dave Olson

Peter_OZ

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good point Dave but i wonder how a 38 would have stood up to a turning fight with a 109? I don't know a lot about the 38 and it's performance.

RCJake-rcu

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I spoke with a vet that flew both the Pony & Jug in Europe during WWII. When I asked which he prefered, he answered, "The Jug". He was flying the Mustang when he got shot down over France (small arms gunfire hit a coolant line on a strafing run), was captured after 30 days and spent over a year as a POW in Paris until the war's end.

US185Damiani

An interesting side note to the P-38 vs Messerschmitt
THe P-38 had 2 engines, and with and experienced pilot could out turn the 109 in a turn fight using differential thrust i.e. pull back the throttle on one engine to allow the turn to tighten up. This was used to great effect throughout the war. ALSO the JUG was the definitive fighter It was just as fast as the P-51 and could out dive it. above 250Mph it could out turn anything the Germans had including the vaunted FW-190's now the P-47 N if it had been developed earlier, and republic had not been so hard headed the P-51 would not have been needed. The P-47 N had the same range as all marks of the '51 since it was fitted with large fuel tanks internally. it was used exclusively in the Pacific late war. The Jug bore the brunt of the toughest fighting also The P-38 was needed but not used properly and the P-40 could out turn an ME-109, and out run a combat loaded Zero contrary to popular opinion. The reason the P-38 wasn't used to good effect in the european theatre is the lack of good support for it from its crews and from the generals in theater. Gen. Kenney snapped up all the P-38's he could get since they had the range speed and firepower to do what he needed. The P-51 was a good airplane, but not the all over Awesome fighter everyone says it was. It was good but received the lions share of press so it has the reputation. BUT The P-47 won the war

Scar

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I read Warren Bodie's book, and was particularly interested in the experience of a pilot named Jack Ilfrey. If I remember correctly, he nailed several 109's which were, at the time, on the tail of other Lightnings. He became quite popular with his squadron mates. Ilfrey and other '38 jocks were then sent to Africa, Eisenhower's first campaign.

The early P38's sent to England on Operation Bolero encountered british fuel, which was of lower octane than that refined by the Americans, and hence had some engine problems not seen in Africa or the Pacific. Still, for the few months they were deployed in Britain, they performed admirably. With Merlins, the fuel would have been no issue. With Merlins, or with better fuel, they could have escorted bombers to Berlin & back in 1943 (when Pacific Lightnings were making longer routine missions.) There's a poem around, someplace, written by a bomber crewman, titled "An Escort of P-38's", so apparently some of those early Lightnings did do some escort work.

These are interesting discussions, and the post '43 P47 & P51 planes were clearly well developed warplanes. If they had been built years earlier, like the P38 (or, if the '38 had been sourced with multiple suppliers), air superiority would have been gained much sooner.

Dave Olson

Woody218

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LIGHTNINGS IN THE SKY

Oh, Hedy Lamar is a beautiful gal, Madeline Carroll is too.
But you’ll find if you query a much different theory amongst any bomber crew
That the loveliest thing of which one can sing This side of the heavenly gates
Is no blonde or brunette of the Hollywood set
But an escort of P-38s

In all the days past when the tables were massed with glasses of scotch and champagne
It’s quite true that that sight was a thing to delight us intent on feeling no pain
But no longer the same nowadays in this game as we sail onto the missing state
Take your sparkling wine but always make mine
An escort of P-38s.

Byron, Shelley and Keats ran each other dead heats describing the views from the hills
Of the valleys in May where the winds gently sway an army of bright daffodils
Take your daffodils Byron, the wild flowers Shelley, yours is the myrtle, friend Keats
Just preserve me those cuties, all-American beauties
An escort of P-38s.

Sure we’re braver than hell on the ground all is well, in the air it’s a much different story
As we sweat out our track through the fighters and flak we’re willing to split up the glory
Well, they wouldn’t reject us so heaven protect us until all this shootin’ abates
Give us courage to fight ’em and another small item
An escort of P-38s.



The P-38 did, indeed, work as an escort fighter. As far as the Mustang vs the P-47, they were both excellent fighters. I have read a head-to-head comparison from WWII between a captured FW-190 and the Thunderbolt. The conclusion was the P-47 had a better rate of turn at low speed, a much better dive rate, and was the overall better fighter. The only advantage the FW-190 had was a better initial rate of climb. The Thunderbolt was also produced in more numbers than any other American fighter.

The Mustang was flown by more aces than any other type. I know that Bong and McGuire were both P-38 jockeys, but more guys became aces flying the P-51 than any other type. Is it because the P-51 was the plane of choice at a time when the Luftwaffe had lost it's best pilots, so it was easy for the P-51 guys to shoot down scores of planes? Everybody that flew the P-51 in combat loved the airplane. But, the guys that flew the P-47 also loved their mounts.

That being said, the P-51 just looks like pure sex, it has to be one of the most beautiful airplanes ever built. Kind of ironic, the designer of the P-51, Edgar Schmued, was a German.

WhiteRook

My Feedback: (38)

THE p-47 flew more missions, but the war could not have been won,
when it was, if not for the P-51 . the 47 WAS the workhorse and the
51 was the arabian Stallion. the P-51 WITH the Merlin should have been
produced earlier.

MANFRED

My Feedback: (27)

This rhetorical question is about as productive as "Do you prefer Blondes or Brunettes?".

Woody218

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True, but don't forget that the Mustang was initally produced for the British. They wanted North American to build P-40 Warhawks for them. N.A. said they could build a better fighter using the same Allison engine the P-40 used. It never had the ability to become a great fighter aircraft until the British rigged up a Merlin to it. Then, when the USAAF read the reports of what a butt-kicker this airplane became with the Merlin, they got interested enough to order it for themselves, and it became the P-51 Mustang.

Scar

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Ah, but could not the same be said for all discussion groups?

Personally, I enjoy these exchanges, and I enjoy reading the books of the various historians. Some find a particular contribution unworthy of mention, others find the same contribution imperative to the outcome of WWII.

If I don't enjoy the book, I simply turn to a different page. Try it.

Good luck,
Dave Olson

Asanders

The P-47 destroyed more aircraft on the ground and in the air than any other allied fighter in history.
the P-47 was outranged hands down by the P-51 and the P-38 .. the P-47 D with tanks could only range 900 miles while the P-51 could top 2000 miles...

Hub Zemke's P-47 group shot down more enemy aircraft than other US Squadron in history..

My Dad always said this and it has been quoted before so I know it's got to be accurate... "If you wanted to take a picture to send home to your girl you sat in the P-51 if you wanted to come home to your girl you flew the P-47.. " he flew the P-47 and he came home... and he took a picture of him in the P-47 LOL

I feel both of these planes complimented each other and without a doubt.. neither one of them alone would have been successful...each found their niche in combat and was exploited to their best abilites.. This of course gives credit to the Men who saw this and made those critical decisions as to where each of these fine fighters fit in the whole picture.

Alan W Sanders

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

heres a joke for you

How do you describe a nude blonde doing cartwheels?

blonde
brunette
blonde
brunette
blonde

... etc

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

without reading any of the postings, I will say this. When Herman Goering looked up and saw this plane flying over Berlin, he knew the war was lost. that plane was the P51

F4U Killer

[/quote]

I read Warren Bodie's book, and was particularly interested in the experience of a pilot named Jack Ilfrey. If I remember correctly, he nailed several 109's which were, at the time, on the tail of other Lightnings. He became quite popular with his squadron mates. Ilfrey and other '38 jocks were then sent to Africa, Eisenhower's first campaign.

The early P38's sent to England on Operation Bolero encountered british fuel, which was of lower octane than that refined by the Americans, and hence had some engine problems not seen in Africa or the Pacific. Still, for the few months they were deployed in Britain, they performed admirably. With Merlins, the fuel would have been no issue. With Merlins, or with better fuel, they could have escorted bombers to Berlin & back in 1943 (when Pacific Lightnings were making longer routine missions.) There's a poem around, someplace, written by a bomber crewman, titled "An Escort of P-38's", so apparently some of those early Lightnings did do some escort work.

These are interesting discussions, and the post '43 P47 & P51 planes were clearly well developed warplanes. If they had been built years earlier, like the P38 (or, if the '38 had been sourced with multiple suppliers), air superiority would have been gained much sooner.

Dave Olson
[/quote]

In Actuality Fuel played a major roll in the winning of the war.
The Brits where suffering from a poor performance in many of their Planes. But as the US became more involved they started sending the Higher Octane fuels to Britain.
The Brits noticed a Better performance as the Octane went higher.
The Germans where dumb founded when the British Planes performance steadily out paced the Germans, until they started testing some planes that had been shot down.

I will have to find the Web where I read this and post it for all to read.

The On-Line game I play has a news group and many arguments start over how a plane flew historically. So many Web pages get put up about WWII planes.
It becomes very interesting researching the different planes.

Also I will leave you with this thought from General Yeager. He said the 51 could for 8 hr's what the Spit could only do for 20 min.