RLefebvre

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So.... does this thing count as a "warbird"? Not sure what exactly the definition is.

Anyway, does anybody have experience with this version?

I ordered it last week. I'm always apprehensive ordering an ARF that I haven't seen as I'm not sure what the quality will be like. But Modeltech seems to have a generally good reputation for their WWII planes, so I thought I'd risk it.

This is my first venture into the warbird field, which I really want to get into. Something about fighter planes... I wanted a Spitfire but couldn't find any good ones in a smaller size, and I'm still not sure if I want retracts because people say they're a PITA on grass.

Anyway, so I have a new Saito 56 I'll use in it. Should work well. I've got another 56 in my 80" Cub, and it hauls that 8lb plane around really well. I'll be using HS-85 servos in the wing since it calls for mini servos.

The plane as it comes is more of a sport-scale. But I intend to put some extra features on it. The guns, wood finish wing struts, and hopefully some sort of wood finish covers on the landing gear wire. I'm also going to try and put exhausts on it, and route the Saito exhaust out through them... I also figure I'll replace most of the hardware with more scale-ish looking pieces like brass clevises instead of plastic, etc.

I just want it to look more real.

I've just started hearing that Biplanes are hard to fly, so that will be interesting. I've *never* had a deadstick with the Saito 56 in my cub with onboard glow. So I don't expect that will be a big deal. And I guess I won't be able to fly it in the wind very well.

So, if this is the right forum and people are interested I'll keep you posted.

BobH

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Yes the SE5a is a warbird by any one's defination. It just happesn to be a WWI warbird and not a WWII Heavy Iron one. I suspect that your plane will fly just fine but you may (most likely will) need to use rudder with your ailerons for turns and rolls. These WWI planes don't have the Axiel response that modern planes have so you need to use your Left Hand more (rudder). I would forgo routing the engine exhaust out the scale locations. IMHO its not worth the added trouble (which will be considerable). You should add wood to the struts and to the landing gear. Bear in mind that not all SE5a's had wood colored struts, some of them were painted along with the rest of the plane in PC10. Hope this helps.. BobH.

RLefebvre

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Hey thanks for the info. I'm already learning to use rudder because my Cub doesn't have the best roll rate either.

When I pick up the plane I'm also going to pick up one of those squadron books for more details. For the exhaust, yeah, it's just a thought. I'll check out how complicated it would be. My job is in the tube bending industry, so I have lots of tools to use. At the very least, I'll replicate the exhaust pipes.

Any ideas on how to make wood covers? Just carve up some balsa and fuelproof it? I was thinking of making wood landing gear, but realized it would break pretty easy. So I know I need the wood covers to somehow be able to flex with the wire.

BobH

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Here's a picture of my gear for my Duncan Hutson SE5a. It's all spruce per the full scale. Probably not as robust as metal gear so I'll have to be careful on landings. The rigging really helps stabilize the gear though. The Bungee shock cords also cushions the impact during landings.
To make your gear look better, I would epoxy wood on the front and rear of the wire and sand in a streamlined shape. Then you can stain it per your liking.
I also made my exhaust per the plane I am modeling mine after. Its made from balsa wood and styrene and painted copper.
I'm also including a picture of my cockpit just so you can see how it's supposed to look. BobH.

RLefebvre

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Wow, nice work! How does the landing gear absorb shock? It seems pretty inflexible, even the metal gear on the SE5a seems inflexible. I've seen some planes where the gear is made of two struts in a triangle, and the wheels are mounted to an axle which is lashed to the struts such that a shock to the gear pulls up on the bungies... hard to put into words. Basically, the axle is *inside* the crook of the Vee, and so they can travel up. In this case, the axle seems to be mountd to the bottom of the vee and can't move up.

My intent is to model it after Billy Bishop's plane, but I haven't found any photos yet.

Hopefully the ARF arrives today and I'll get some pictures up.

RLefebvre

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Ok, picked up the model tonight. Sorry I don't have any pics, and not too much to say at the moment, I'm a little under the weather right now.

Overall the quality seems to be about average for an ARF. It appears to be lower quality hard/heavy balsa mostly, and probably die cut instead of laser cut. Some hot glue is apparent as well as a thin yellow glue. The covering quality is not bad, no wrinkles, fairly smooth, but the trimming leaves some to be desired.

It's not nearly as good as my Thunder Tiger Decathlon which is stellar, but it is better than the VMAR I bought a little while back.

The engine mount is not great looking, but probably usable. Firewall is not adequately fuel proofed. Those wire wheels... while kinda neat looking, aren't scale at all. They are way too big, and I don't know of any SE5's with the spokes showing anyway. They also weigh a TON. I'll probably replace them with something more scale and lighter.

I set the vertical fin to epoxy into the horizontal tonight and that will be it for today. Kinda nice that there are only two epoxy operations in the whole thing. This first step, then the stab assembly into the fuse. The wings are both one piece.

I did mock up the engine mounting. The new style Saito muffler, I can't get it all inside the cowl. There's plenty of room, just the angles don't work out. I'm going to try and get some kind of different connector to angle it differently.

BobH

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If you look close at picture two you can see the white bungee cord. It's wrapped around the axel and the Landing gear several times in a figure 8. This allows the axel to travel up upon landing/loads like a shock asorber.
I saw a picture of the ARF SE5a and one thing I noticed was the outer struts. The full scale plane does not have the diagonal strut that runs between the two upright strugs. Instead there are two wires that attache the top of one strut to the bottom of the other. This is on both struts, the front and rear one. You can cover your wheels with fabric covering and use them. My wheels are heavy as well and they are solid. Good luck with your project.

RLefebvre

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Yeah, I was aware of the outer diagonal struts... there are also diagonals on the inner struts that the real plane didn't have. I'll look to replace these with flying wires if possible. I can get the plane in my wagon, assembled, so the flying wires don't worry me too much. As long as I can get it, and my Decathlon in assembled together, it'll be fine. I don't like taking the Dec apart either, because it has wing struts and it's a bit of a pain to assemble too.

I could cover the wheels, but the biggest problem really is that they are HUGE. Really big. I'll get some pics. I may use them for a while, I dunno. I just think they'll look funny.

I think I see how your gear works. There's like a channel that the axle can move up into?

BobH

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The Axel floats in the bungee cords. The spreader bar has a groove in it that the Axel fits into but is not attached. Over the axel goes a hinged ply part that is free to move upwards if the axel presses against it (think clam shell). The air pressure just keeps the cover closed most of the time.
Here is a picture of the full scale, I hope it helps.

RLefebvre

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I get most of it now, other than the clamshell part you're talking about. You're talking about the airfoil shaped fairing on the axel itself? Why would it need to be hinged or anything? I would think it would just be fixed right on the axle and move with it?

BobH

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There are four distinct parts here, the Axel, the spreader bar (that keeps the Main LG halves apart) and the ply cover over the Axel and the bungee. The Axel is normally in a grove in the spreader bar. It is free to move up out of the that grove upon landing. The spreader bar is bolted to each side of the Main Gear Struts and is stationary. The cover over the Axel is there to keep dirt out and reduce drag. The bungee's keep the Axel in the grove in the spreader bar until the Axel is put under a load (landing). Then they stretch and absorb the shock allowing the Axel to move. I hope this explains it well enough .
Keep in mind that this is the design for the SE5a. Other WWI plans had different solutions although they all used Bungee's. Some used a split Axel that allowed each side to pivot independently.

RLefebvre

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Ok, I got it now. Thanks!

I got the bottom wing mounted last night, and glued on the tail. I have to say, while the wood and covering isn't great quality, it seems like it was constructed well. The wing bolted right into place, fits like a glove. The holes and blind nuts were pre mounted and it all fit together like a puzzle. Then I fit the tail and lined the trailing edge of the vertical fin up with end of the fuse, and lined up the front of the fin with the center stringer on top of the fuse. Measured from wing tip to tail tip on both sides, and the whole thing was dead nuts on.

BobH

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Sounds like its going to be a decent flyer with all the parts fitting so well. When you make some modifications don't forget to post some pictures. BobH.

RLefebvre

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I got the upper wing mounted last night using the supplied parts. The outer struts aren't too bad, but the inner Cabane struts look like crap. They don't look professional at all. Seem like they were cut out of sheet alumium with a hacksaw, hand filed ends, etc. They were supposedly pre-bent to fit right, but I had to tweak them a lot. They needed to be straightened where they are supposed to be straight, and rebent where they are supposed to be bent. The aluminum is also incredibly soft. I don't think it's 6061... probably dead soft 30003 alloy. I'll likely replace them with streamline tubing or something.

Supposedly the real ones were metal with some sort of fabric wrap, so shouldn't be too hard to make them look realistic.

I also got the landing gear installed. The wheels are too big. I think the full size wheels are 27" tall, the plane is 6.5:1 scale so should be 4 1/4" diameter. The wheels it came with are 5". I might replace them with some 4 3/8" Williams Brothers Vintage wheels if I can get my hands on some. They'll also be lighter.

I'm also having trouble finding a pilot. I guess 1/6 or 1/7 would work. Hanger 9 has a 1/7 WWI US pilot that could work, but I hate painting them.

I picked up some spruce spars to make new outer struts. I might assemble the plane as-is before I start modifying. I'll try to get some pictures up.

Modeltech claims 5lbs flying weight. I don't see it. The landing gear and wheels weigh a pound by themselves, another pound for the engine, and probably a pound for the radio system. That leaves two pounds for the airframe. No way.

RLefebvre

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Ok, time for an update. The build has been going slowly because I've been spending so much time trying to figure out better scale details and stuff. I've got more done than I can show right now because I haven't taken pictures of everything yet. But, here are some things:

The first 3 pics are just some close up details of the covering, just to describe what I mean when I say the covering workmanship isn't great. The edges are pretty jagged and not sealed well. Particularly around the cockpit. I bought some cockpit combing I'l be installing to clean this up.

Last pic is the supplied engine mount. Seems usable, though it is surprisingly flexible.

RLefebvre

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Ok, now here's what I'm pretty excited about. I don't know if anybody has done this before... but I made my own exhaust manifold in order to get the muffler inside the cowl. The new Saitos come with the cast muffler with a straight pipe. It would have either needed to be extended to get the muffler completely outside the cowl, or it would have required to make big ugly cuts in the cowl. I knew the muffler would fit in, but I couldn't find a good manifold. I tried the original Saito muffler with bent manifold and that didn't work. I also know they have flexible mufflers, but I don't know how well they work.

So, I went to the hobby store and got some K&S 3/8" x 0.049" aluminum tubing. It works out to 9.5mm Dia. The Saito threads are 10x1.0 I knew I could thread the pipe, however I wouldn't get a full thread because the diameter wasn't 10mm. Since it's not structural, oh well. I also bought some of these K&S mandrels used for bending tubing. Went out to the garage, put the tubing in a vice, and used a bigger pipe as a lever. Had to work the tubing carefully, but as you can see I got a beautiful bend with no tube collapse. It was difficult getting the mandrel out, and I kinda ruined it, but it was only $5 for 4 of them so no big deal.

Threaded the ends, and voila!

It seems to work perfectly. Fits perfect anyway. I'll know how it works while I break in the engine. I'm able to tighten the jam nuts just as hard as normal, no problem.

Am I the first person to do anything like this? It's pretty neat. I realize now I could make many different kinds of exhaust systems easily.

RLefebvre

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I'll get some more pics tomorrow of what I've done. I made an aluminum mount for a Dubro quick fill valve. And I made a wood servo mount, and mounted an HS-81 in the cowl area. Direct drive to the throttle, works great. So that's all done now. Everything will be hidden, no cowl cutouts at all, other than one to reach the needle valve, and some air outlets on the bottom.

I'll open up the scale rad areas on the front of the cowl and install some brass mesh I got at the hobby store. I also started working on the Lewis gun mount on top of the wing. Got some plastic I beam and bent it into a curve. I'll also be making a custom windshield, one of the small versions that were popular.

RLefebvre

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Ok, another couple hours of building and I'm almost done the basic construction. However the scale detailing will remain.

I bought a can of Monocote paint, Olive drab, and I plan on repainting the cowl. This paint matches perfectly the Olive Drab Monocote covering. The cowl is noticably different right now.

I have the engine and other bits installed permanently up front as you can see. I put the throttle servo directly on the engine mount. I like this setup, sure works slick, no drag at all. As it turns out, I need all the extra weight I can get up front. I was expecting this since the Saito is relatively light. I did a test balance, and it's fairly tail heavy. I put the battery and recieve above the fuel tank, and the servo further forward than they should be, and it still won't balance. I'm going to need some lead. [] Probably about 3-4 ounces.

Luckily the pushrods supplied are extra long, and I didn't trim them yet. And the servo tray is not installed, and I'll be able to move it forward a ways. That will help.

I attached pics of my throttle servo setup, and the remote fuel valve. Then two pics assembled on the floor. As you can see, the stock cabane struts look horrible. Not sure what to do with them exactly. You can also see the wheels are comically too big.

BAMAFLY

The wheels are indeed too large, but on the bright side, grass fields will be ZERO problem for this puppy!

scalebldr

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Hi,
Have you been able to test fly this yet.I just got one,will use an os fs 61 .my concern is the landing gear not being able to flex at all on landings.thinking of cutting the center spreader wire to allow the gear to flex outwards.could put a plastick sleeve over the cut secrion to hide the fact.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

I have these wheels on the blue max , what a joy !!!! nothing can stop these from take offs .

YOu could always add hubs if you dont like the spokes !!! Good luck with your maiden flight ,

RLefebvre

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No, I haven't flown it yet. I'm pretty busy at work, and getting my trackday car ready for the season. I've been adding scale details, so I should get some pics up. So far I've got a pilot, better windshield, Williams Brother's Wheels, stained wood outer struts, stripped the white tail stripe and used letter Z to replicate Billy Bishop's plane, just got a WB Lewis gun for the top... whew.... It won't look like an ARF when I'm done!

abufletcher

It's always a question as to how much it's worth trying to "pretty up" an ARF that is regardless of what you do still as seriously non-scale as those wheels. Like the ModelTech DVII before it, the outlines and positioning of things are only vaguely scale. What's the point of adding a beautiful exhaust (like Bob's stunning work) on a model that has the wing in the wrong place. I'd be willing to slap on a little paint and glue on a couple of details but that's about it. If I wanted to do more I'd probably buy a kit from Flair, BUSA, or Funaero (and modify it to my liking).

Still, I have thought about getting one of these ModelTech SE5a's -- but only as a "trainer" for more serious scale models. I wouldn't care if it crashed and would much care how it looks. But that's just me.

scalebldr

My Feedback: (7)

There is the wow factor with details.what is an se 5 without the lewis gun on the top wing and the vickers on the fuse as well as the exposed engine covers and exhaust that runs along the fuse.they give the illusion of scale if done right.would it compete in scale contest who knows flyability is just as important as scale outline.what good is a tricked out lead sled hanger queen that can't be flown other than as use as a disply model

LDM

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I disagree , personally I would like to create a new market - amss OR almost stand-off scale , for me I have build many planes and realize that for me the I truely enjoy the detail part , the fun scale additions .Remember Dave Platt siad , I would rather have it look good then scale , so ARf are a great place to start adding detail . My H9 corsiar is 3 colors , CJ Gear , interior , and pilot . My Sportman avaition is still undergoing a major bash , slideing canapy , full interior , 100 retracts , ect ect ect .Its just fun