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Tell me about these kit cutters:

Old 11-15-2002, 03:24 PM
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rustyrivet
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Guys,

I want to build a 4 engine bomber. It will be either a 146" Don Smith B-24 from plans, or a 118" FW200 from plans out of Germany.

Please tell me your experiences you might have had with any one of these three Kit Cutters that I am seriously considering:

All American Kit Cutters/ Doug McMillan

Precision Cut Kits/ Larry Katona

The Aeroplane Works/Mace Gill

If you have a not so flattering opinion that you wish to relay privately to me about any experiences you've had with these companies, your welcome to E mail me about it at:

RandallMontube @aol.com
(Or, click the e mail icon below)
Old 11-15-2002, 03:30 PM
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Yak18
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

My Aeroplane Works Ziroli Stearman kit was a work of art. I had a few formers that had stringer notches in the wrong place, but that was Ziroli's fault not Aeroplane Works as the formers matched the plans perfectly. Great wood too!

Yak
Old 11-15-2002, 03:46 PM
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CoosBayLumber
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Ask the hard question first of these folks.

How large of sheet can you cut.
How thick of plywood can you cut?
How long wil it take?

One of the guys listed can only cut up to 20 inch long sheets with his home equipment, but will send it out for double the cost.

Another guy listed takes about 5-7 months per project.

I don't use any of the noted, because of such. For your large sized project, you need a large sized cutter. Ask them yet another hard question, "How much does your machine cost?" If it is about $10-15,000, it is a small machine. If they say $50,000 to 1/4 million, it is a large machine, and that is where you want to go.

Wm.
Old 11-15-2002, 06:14 PM
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M Gill
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Randall,

I am working on a run of kits for Don Smith's B-24 right now. I can ship you one in about 4 weeks.

I do not laser cut any of my parts. They are all cut on band saws and other shop tools. I can cut a kit more accurately than any laser and I have direct control over every stick of wood that goes into my kits. I make my own sticks and sheets, and grade them to give my customers the proper density. My kits are also guaranteed for accuracy.

I also include in my kits the aluminum tubes and sockets, and servo lead tubes.

If you give me a call, either Butch or myself can fill you in on all of the details about this kit.

We would also like to kit the FW-200 in the near future so I will try to comment about that as well if I speak to you.

Mace Gill
The Aeroplane Works
(732)-356-8557

p.s. hey Yak, send me some pics when you have finished the PT-17, and call me about the notches. Please let Nick know also.
Old 11-15-2002, 06:36 PM
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Default OK HERE YOU GO

I have a real prob. with KIT CRITTER's oop's sorry , you said kit cutter's I thought you said KIT CRITTER'S
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Old 11-15-2002, 07:34 PM
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SitNFly
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Now you did it. I just spit coffee all over my monitor.
Old 11-15-2002, 08:41 PM
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Chad Veich
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Originally posted by M Gill
Randall,

I can cut a kit more accurately than any laser
Not to knock your work as I've built from your kits and was satisfied with the quality. However, as one who did kit cutting for over five years with band saws, routers, scroll saws, and belt sanders, and now works as an architectural modeler using a laser almost daily, I find this statement pretty hard to believe. A laser is much more accurate than even a really good eyeball and a really steady pair of hands. Not to mention the laser is being guided by a computer program that is ten times more accurate than a wood or metal template.

Having said that, a laser applied to a traditionally designed airplane such as a Ziroli is not using the accuracy of the laser to its full advantage. From the builders stand point I doubt there would be a huge advantage to a laser cut kit over a hand cut kit in such an instance. The advantage of the laser here would be to the cutter rather than the builder. An airplane that is designed specifically to be laser cut will have interlocking features that make it very accurate and easy to build. Those same features would make said kit nearly impossible to hand cut accurately. Just my .02 cents.
Old 11-15-2002, 08:46 PM
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slim56
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Ditto, Chad.
Old 11-15-2002, 09:49 PM
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warbirdz1
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Default Kit Kutters......

Randall....I have used Precision and the Aeroplane works....I fly mostly but not all Ziroli planes...so I've used the Aeroplane works for the Ziroli kits and they've been done up nicely....even had incident @ Joe Nall where I tried to fly thru big tree cutting corner on final(P-47) with of all people, Nick Sr. as my spotter...and Mace sent me parts to fix wing......I was also happy with the work done by Precision.....I'm sure there are pros and cons to most any of them but my experiences were good....I prefer machine cut parts as" sometimes" laser cut parts need light sanding to adhere better to CA glue....Bill.....
Old 11-15-2002, 11:05 PM
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Default cutters

I vector the plans for Http://www.lazer-works.com and I like lazer cut best. But I will point out one major consideration and that is that the quality of the templates for hand cut or the quality of the vectors for laser cut determines much for the quality of the kit.

Take the way I do it for example. I have built many kits over my 25+ yrs and you notice that a lot of them you get are hand drawn. that means errors no matter how good the designer is you CANNOT get a perfectly symetrical part when drawing by hand. and i am not trashing anyone here just pointing things out in general. now that said if a kit cutter takes a set of plans and makes templates and cuts them out and they match the plans perfectly thats fine but any flaws in the design will also be in the parts. I like to take fuse formers and anything symetrical and draw 1/2 of it and then mirror the part joining it together to have a perfectly symetrical part something you can only do using a cad program. also a lot of "straight lines" arent so straight so using a computer and cad program they will be perfectly straight. in my opinion laser quality is much better than hand cut and if you going for a laser cut kit most will pretty much be equal except possibly wood quality and price. Jesse who I do business with uses only Balsa USA premium quality balsa and personally i think that company has the best balsa but thats my personal opinion. Secondly he only cuts short kits ie all the parts you would cut by hand letting you choose your own sheeting and such which means his kits are the least expensive out there. I have ordered from american and precision and the kits themselves were fine but the wood for the rest was usually the cheapest they could buy in bulk due to warpages etc I have found. So when I gave Jesse a try I was quite pleased with his work and hooked up with him for all my business. There have been a lot of guys on this forum who have done business with him so I will let them speak for themselves.

Joe
Old 11-16-2002, 03:11 AM
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rustyrivet
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Gentlemen,
You might find it interesting, that up to this point no one has emailed me to complain of having experienced problems with the three forementioned kit cutters.
Except for the one instance of childish dribble/stupidity in this thread while I was seeking advice, I do thank you for the detailed and informative input. I will continue to monitor this thread for additional advice.
-Randall
Old 11-16-2002, 03:21 AM
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Default Buz

I forgot to ask can I borrow your pilot sometime? whered ya getem be good to have a nice pilot like that just look at the realistic fur lined coat hehehe

Joe
Old 11-16-2002, 03:45 AM
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Ditto what Chad says.....

I find time and again that modelers loose all perspective in this hobby, and mostly don't apply common sense....

Duralites Batteries- added regulators, to save 3oz on a 40lb airplane.....paying an extra $300 for an engine that's a pound lighter only to have to add 4lbs of lead to the nose....dual recievers....dual batteries....and many other nonsensical stuff that adds no value, and frankly makes no sense other than to complicate life and add complexity to building an airplane.......

I agree, with this particular airplane Laser Cut parts, or parts cut in a more traditional manner wouldn't matter one way or the other to the builder.

Now, if you're a manufacturer and your worry is conformity/repeatabilty and replication in production then comuter aided laser Cutting my be the answer to assure that everything fits because who knows, you might have the 105th wing cut in december mounted to the 1000th fuselage cut last year in August.....

Doesn't mean squat to the one of a kind builder such as you and me.


Oh, I almost forgot...I've used Precision Cut Kits, as well as American in the past.

I've been equally satisfied with the both of them...
Old 11-16-2002, 05:47 AM
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M Gill
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

With all due respect to Chad and other fans of laser, the repeatability of production is not an issue with me. Due to idiosyncrasies in various drawings, a hand cut kit can more accurately compensate for hand drawn plans than a laser. Time and time again I adjust my kits when flaws become apparent in the drawings or in production. I also communicate these difficulties with the designer so that he can make adjustments in the plans if it is needed. Another advantage of hand cutting is the fact that I often have requests for special parts such as an adjusted firewall, or different retract mounts and I can make those adjustments as I go.

My guarantee states that I will replace any parts that are unsatisfactory to the modeler for any reason free of charge. I also replace parts that become damaged due to builder error and/or minor crash damage. I even honor this guarantee after the plane has been sold third party.

We can go back and forth about the accuracy of laser vs. hand cut for many, many posts, so I will move on by describing the quality of materials in my kits.

I have already described the lengths I go to when producing balsa, but the plywood I use is an AB/AB model grade plywood for the poplar parts, and I use a Finland birch ply for the Aircraft plywood parts. The 1/8th inch Birch ply I use is a five ply and extremely strong.

In the case of Don Smith's designs, all of his Fuselage and tail surfaces are done "on the clam shell" which ensures accurate parts regardless of who is doing the cutting.

Randall, I have described some of what goes into my kits, I challenge you to call me and the other kit cutters and ask many, many questions. Find out what is actually included in the kits, what materials are used, and what guarantees are offered. Another step is to do a search on R/C universe and find out what other people are saying who have not stumbled across this discussion. (if you search, ignore my posts and look at other people's).

Mace Gill
The Aeroplane Works
(732)-356-8557
Old 11-16-2002, 06:15 AM
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Well, I'm agreeing with you Mr. Gill, as well as with Chad......

Like I said, it doesn't mean squat one way or the other. laser vs. hand cut, when you're doing one of a kind.....

Having said that, and having read your post Mr. Gill, I certainly can relate to mistakes, errrr, "oversights" in the plans, subsequently resulting in poor parts fits, etc...

Fact is, I just struggled with one such problem involving the landing gear on an airplane (don't want to say which one) whereby the abgles and placement of the rails didn't quite do it in terms of fit....

I had alot of shimming/trimming to do to get it right, even though the kit was laser cut!!

Like I said, it really matters not; laser cut/hand cut for one of a kind construction.

I'll keep you in mind the next time Mr. Gill.
Old 11-16-2002, 06:25 AM
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M Gill
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Thanks Branded,

And please......call me Mace
Old 11-17-2002, 01:33 AM
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Yak18
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Now that's CUSTOMER SERVICE Mace!!!

OK guys, I posted a reply on this thread and within hours Mace Gill emailed me requesting more information on my problem with The Aeroplane Works Ziroli 77 inch Stearman kit his dad sold me in 1992. When is the last time a manufacturer contacted you before you tried to contact them?

Mace, thanks, I will reply here so others can follow along. I bought and built the kit in 1992. Although, it's still around (on the charger now), I have no way of knowing now which formers had the slightly misplaced notches because they are built into the fuse and I cannot see them from the inside or out. I remember there were only two misplaced notches on two formers and they were near the cockpit area. The problem was with the plans not the kit parts because I checked all the parts with the plans and every part matched Ziroli's drawing exactly!!!

When I was running stringers the problem showed up and I simply cut new slots in those formers and patched the old slots to hold the stringers in the correct place. It took me 2-3 minutes to fix and was a non-issue for me. That's why no call to your dad or Nick Ziroli. I know now that not providing feedback causes problems to continue...I'm sorry guys. Next time, I will call.

Bottom-line to my fellow modelers: I was 110% pleased with my 99.9% perfect kit from Aeroplane Works. We are fortunate to have Mace Gill providing us with quality kits and OUTSTANDING CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!

Yak
Old 11-17-2002, 01:47 AM
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Yak18
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I agree Branded.

CAD design makes the parts fit perfectly, NOT laser cutting.

Now, CAD designed AND laser cut...that is heaven!

Any CAD software in your future Nick Z.?

Yak
Old 11-17-2002, 02:30 AM
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Well Yak Laser cutting DOES make a better fit as you are using a cad program to trace the parts thus you can make the notches a designer draws for stringers spars etc fit perfectly since their hand drawn is off also you can do 1/2 the fuse former and make it symetrical by Mirroring it. Basically you fix all the errors that the designer has made because of the inaccuracy of hand drawing So yes Laser cutting does make the parts fit better because you have to cad draw all the parts so you have something that the laser can use to cut parts its something that cant be donw by hand and have the accuracy. You can take fuse formers from a laser cutter and most will not match the plans exact. Why? cause we fixz all the errors in symetry and the not so perfect circles etc. so there is a BIG difference between l;aser cut and hand cut. the only time it would be the same would be if hand cut parts were first redone in cad and printed out to make templates and I know of a few guys that have done it then had a LASER cut out their templates for them.

Basically a kit is a kit is a kit you will get a more accurate fit from a laser cut kit but like I said if the hand cut kits templates were made from a cad generated part outline they can be the exact same quality as a laser cut kit. also a laser cut kit can be shipped to a customer faster than a hand cut kit as the laser can have everything cut same day order comes in unless other orders in front of a person. and if templates are made to follow exactly the outlines on a plan they wont fix the errors in the plan.

But all in all in these models unless something is way far off most people will not notice the difference so does it really matter which is better? I dont think so but what does matter is each persons preference and I just thought would post the technical ifferences between the two so each person has a more informed decision no matter where you get a kit from.

Just My Opinion

Joe
Old 11-17-2002, 03:10 AM
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Well, I can't speak to laser cutting kits because I've never done one, but it seems to me that an airplane that is cad designed and transfered straight to the cutting equipment will be far more accurate than one that's hand drawn on a plan, and later copied, by whatever method, into the computer.

Having said that, I'm not so sure that copying a design from a hand drawn plan is any more accurate than just simply making templates and cutting it by hand.

True, you can correct for symmetry, and round holes that aren't, etc., but all the cumulative errors are still there, as well as the inaccuracies you add by the copying process.

I agree that the prime advantage for laser cutting a design is to accommodate the cutter as a labor saving tool.

I fail to see any other advantage.
Old 11-17-2002, 04:02 AM
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Default kits

I have had several kits from Precision and they were all very nice. I just recently ordered a kit from Laser Works and was very impressed. Their prices were excellent! I like to pick my own sheeting so their short kits are perfect for us. I ordered a P-61 that wasn't in stock on Monday and recieved it on Friday. That's about the best service I have ever recieved. Usually if it's not in stock it takes weeks to get. Might give them a try, I know here at Skunkworks we will be using them often. Glenn
Old 11-17-2002, 05:06 AM
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Chad Veich
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

Randall, I accidentally edited your last post (in other words, I erased a good portion of it!). In a moment of innatentiveness I hit the "edit" button instead of the "quote" button which is what I really wanted. Anyway, I applogize profusely! I went ahead and deleted the post rather than leave up the edited version. Please repost it if you will. Thanks, Chad (red faced from embarassment)
Old 11-17-2002, 05:15 AM
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Chad Veich
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Default Re: kits

Originally posted by 1wolf
I ordered a P-61 that wasn't in stock on Monday and recieved it on Friday. That's about the best service I have ever recieved.
That's another huge advantage to the laser. Once you've taken the time to vectorize the parts the cutting of the kit is quite a rapid process (assuming the parts have been laid out properly) and can be done by someone with minimal training. A good CAD man can make a huge difference in actual cut time too.
Old 11-17-2002, 05:26 AM
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Yea Chad when I do the files for jesse when I am done I duplicate all parts that need more than one and set them up in rectangles the size of his balsa and ply then I list wood sizes needed and arrange them for him under proper wood size so all he needs to do is slap a piece of wood in place and click and there goes the laser. we use corel draw for it though as he told me autocad files seem to add more stuff to it so it takes the laser longer to cut but an average ziroli kit takes about 5 hrs for the laser to cut and etch. it would prob go faster but I go all out and set the files up so it will etch all dashed lines so a person doesnt have to draw them on themselves when figureing out where something gets glued onto.

Joe
Old 11-17-2002, 05:50 AM
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rustyrivet
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Default Tell me about these kit cutters:

I just don't know about you Chad!!? I get deleted, but you leave that fuzzy, stupid rat urinating in the cockpit!

Essentially: I was just concluding from much of the information gathered here, that Laser Cutting will really not provide me with any special benefit, unless the kit cutter has actually gone through the trouble of converting hand drawn plans to a CAD format.

The vast majority of plans offered are HAND DRAWN( ie:Smith, Palmer, Ziroli, etc.) thus the laser cutting is at best only going to be as good as the hand drawn plans. Unless I can find a cutter who has converted hand drawn plans to CAD, and utilizes the CAD to do laser cutting, I need only to concern myself with hiring one who provides good craftsmanship and customer service. ( (and worry less about method.)

SOOOOOoo... The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. By George; Do I finally have it?

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