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P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Old 05-29-2008, 02:13 AM
  #1  
frank99
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Default P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Some people are tired of this plane but not me , it is the best of the best of the best, speed, looks, power, and kill ratio,and the sound of the engine,well the p-51 is bad to the bone. How about any thing goes, post pics,nose art,flying tips,news relase of new stangs,hope new ones are on the board,crashes hope not many,you name it,first try at some thing like this have fun frank
Old 05-29-2008, 04:45 AM
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CorsairJock
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

I won't speak for anyone else, but I am not so 'tired of this plane' as much as I am tired or hearing people who proclaim that it is the best plane of WW II/ we could not have won the war without it/ it could do everything better than any other plane.
Reason: it is simply not true. While it could do some things better than other planes, it was not a 'jack of all trades' (P-47 for one was a much better ground support plane, and not too shabby as a fighter either), and the war was well on it's way to being won by the allies by the time Mustang reached the front lines in significant numbers. In other words: I feel that it is a highly over-rated aircraft. It's main attributes were exceptional range and the speed and manuverabilty to compete with the best fighters of the day.

And the sound? To me: a Pratt & Whitney R2800 is the best sounding engine ever made, but to each his own.

BTW, I finally have a Mustang: a Top Flite '60 size' ARF which I hope to have ready to fly in about a week, and which will be powered by an AXI 4130/20 electric motor.
Old 05-29-2008, 06:33 AM
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frank99
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Good start ,all comments welcome pos or neg, as for me i would take a slim wine bottle over a jug of wiskey[&:],graveyard shift over headed to the house frank
Old 05-29-2008, 08:06 AM
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Peter_OZ
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

mmm me thinks a Tempest would have made any P51 pilot reach for a change of undies
Old 05-29-2008, 08:20 AM
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Vintauri
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

While I like the Mustang and recently aquired a very nice PICA I believe the mustangs Kill ratio was 11:1 while the Hellcat was 19:1.
Old 05-29-2008, 08:58 AM
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rrudytoo
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Both CorsairJock and Vintauri make excellent points. Yes, the P-51 was and remains an excellent fighter..........in its theater of operation. Like many other examples, one design could not perform equally well in all theaters of war. For example, the P-38 performed marvelously in the Pacific and Mediterranian theaters but suffered in the high altitude combat of Europe. The B-17 was the stuff of legend over Europe but could not duplicate that success anywhere else and the same could be said for the P-51. The Hellcat owned the Pacific. Period.

I often think of the statement I once heard that if a young American fighter pilot wanted to impress the folks back home, he would have his picture taken in front of a P-51. But, if he wanted to live to see those folks again, he was damn glad to be flying a P-47. The Mustang, while nimble and lethal, was also vulnerable to hits in its cooling system which happened all too often. Robert S. Johnson would not have returned to England had he flown a Mustang. I'm sure you know that story.

I think it would be safe to say that a fighter pilot had to believe in his heart that the plane he flew was the best that could be had at that time. A bond would be formed between man and machine that most people cannot fathom yet this bond would remain for the pilot's natural life. Ask any guy who flew in combat. Without this belief, his confidence level would not be where it needed to be and his performance could be adversely affected. The sentiments surrounding the P-39 were mixed, at best. There were those who hated that plane but there were others who felt it was superb. None other than Chuck Yeager once said, "I had about 500 hours in the P-39 and thought it was about the best airplane I ever flew." The Russians perfomed admirably against the best the Luftwaffe had to offer while flying the P-39. Germany's second highest ace, Gerhardt Barkhorn with over 300 kills, was shot down by a Russian P-39. More often than not, it was pilot ability rather than the machine that decided the outcome of a fight.

Yes, the Mustang is a wonderful airplane and earned its place in history. But, much like the horsepower wars in the 1960's between Chevy, Ford and Chrysler, it was more often the mechanic and the driver who earned fame for this mount and, like the fighters of WWII, we will never truly know which machine really was the best because, honestly, they were all so very, very good.

Al
Old 05-29-2008, 09:08 AM
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Evil_Merlin
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Lets not forget about the Bf 109 which had a kill ratio someplace around 30:1 until the end of the war. Shure the P-51 was a great airplane but damn folks, people keep missing some simple facts:

Erich Hartmann, 352 kills, most in the Bf 109.
Gerhard Barkhorn, 301 kills, most in the Bf 109.
G├╝nther Rall, 275 kills, most in the Bf 109.
Otto Kittel, 267 kills, most in the Bf 109.

I could go on, of the top 10 German aces, at least 6 had most of their kills in the Bf 109.

Just the top four German aces alone had over 1000 kills in the Bf 109. Heck out of the top 20 german aces, 12 flew the Bf 109, for a combined total of over 2000 kills.

No other country came even remotely close.
Old 05-29-2008, 09:14 AM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Germany also forced thier pilots to serve till they were either dead or the war was over. But you are right we often overlook the Axis planes and the marvels they were.
Old 05-29-2008, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM


ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

Lets not forget about the Bf 109 which had a kill ratio someplace around 30:1 until the end of the war. Shure the P-51 was a great airplane but damn folks, people keep missing some simple facts:

Erich Hartmann, 352 kills, most in the Bf 109.
Gerhard Barkhorn, 301 kills, most in the Bf 109.
G├╝nther Rall, 275 kills, most in the Bf 109.
Otto Kittel, 267 kills, most in the Bf 109.

I could go on, of the top 10 German aces, at least 6 had most of their kills in the Bf 109.

Just the top four German aces alone had over 1000 kills in the Bf 109. Heck out of the top 20 german aces, 12 flew the Bf 109, for a combined total of over 2000 kills.

No other country came even remotely close.
German pilots numbers are very misleading.

Erich Hartmann, 352 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 1,404 missions
Gerhard Barkhorn, 301 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 1100 missions
G├╝nther Rall, 275 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 621 missions
Otto Kittel, 267 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 583 missions

I can see why no other country comes close.



Old 05-29-2008, 09:54 AM
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Evil_Merlin
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

It doesn't matter how many missions they flew, it doesn't matter that they flew till they got shot down & killed or the war ended. The point is they did the job they were supposed to do.
They were not winning the war, and they had to do eveything possible to defend Germany, and they did it, time and time again.

People love to color the German pilots behind "Oh they did so many missions" but the fact of the matter is that the top 10-15 German aces shot down more planes than all the Allied aces combined (depending on whose numbers you use).

Planes like the Bf 109, the Fw 190 and the Me 262 are so frequently overlooked because they were on the losing side of the war. If it wasn't for those three planes, the war would have been over much quicker than it went, which only goes to prove just how powerful and advanced those three planes were and those are only three planes from the German war machine which was so far ahead of the Allies that we don't really know just how lucky we were that Hitler was a nut and we bombed the hell outta the german oil resources and factories.

I would take a Fw 190 D9 over a P-51 any day.
Old 05-29-2008, 09:56 AM
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Evil_Merlin
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Erich Hartmann, 352 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 1,404 missions
Gerhard Barkhorn, 301 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 1100 missions
G├╝nther Rall, 275 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 621 missions
Otto Kittel, 267 kills, most in the Bf 109. > 583 missions
You also failed to point out how many missions a lot of the Russian pilots flew.
Old 05-29-2008, 10:00 AM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

The luftwaffe numbers go down when you look at their western Europe numbers compared to the Russian front. Many of the famous German experten racked up huge scores against inferior russian aircraft and aircrews. Things were a little different when facing British and AMerican planes and tactics. Adding to the difficulty level was Hitler's standing order to attack Bombers (latter day defense of the Riech) and to avoid dogfights to conserve fuel, aircrews and aircraft. Our boys had plenty of each as they scoured the skies looking for prey. I thinks perhaps the Mustang will go down as one of the sexiest WWII fighters, but it seemed to be very vulnerable to damage as one shot to the glycol or radiator systems and you were going down. Pratt & Whitney radials have been known to take 20mm shells to the cylinders and keep running. Interestingly enough, american engineers tested a captured KI-84 Frank and did side by side comparison tests and found the Japanese plane to outperform the stang in just about every category. Just didn't produce enough of them. BTW I own 4 Mustangs in my Hanger so I guess you could say I love them.
Old 05-29-2008, 10:50 AM
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Evil_Merlin
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

On the Western Front:

Hans-Joachim Marseille 158 kills
Heinz B├Ąr 125 kills
Kurt B├╝hligen 112 kills
Adolf Galland 104 kills
Joachim M├╝ncheberg 102 kills
Werner Schroer 102 kills
Egon Mayer 102 kills
Josef Priller 101 kills

And those are only the Luftwaffe pilots with over 100 kills on the Western front. The top nine have over 1000 kills between them. The top 20 have a combined total of just shy of 2000.

Things were not all that different. About a factor of 1/2-1/3.
Old 05-29-2008, 11:02 AM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

On the Western Front:

Hans-Joachim Marseille 158 kills
Heinz B├Ąr 125 kills
Kurt B├╝hligen 112 kills
Adolf Galland 104 kills
Joachim M├╝ncheberg 102 kills
Werner Schroer 102 kills
Egon Mayer 102 kills
Josef Priller 101 kills

And those are only the Luftwaffe pilots with over 100 kills on the Western front. The top nine have over 1000 kills between them. The top 20 have a combined total of just shy of 2000.

Things were not all that different. About a factor of 1/2-1/3.
How many missions did each one fly?


Hans-Joachim Marseille 158 kills > ?missions
Heinz B├Ąr 125 kills >He was shot down 18 times during the course of flying about 1000 combat missions.
Kurt B├╝hligen 112 kills > 700 missions
Adolf Galland 104 kills >705 missions
Joachim M├╝ncheberg 102 kills > 500 missions
Werner Schroer 102 kills , actually He was credited with 114 victories, claimed in 197 combat missions <THIS is phenominal!
Egon Mayer 102 kills > ? missions , killed in action
Josef Priller 101 kills > 1307 missions

You have to give all the numbers to get the real picture. If any other country made their pilots fly 1000s of missions you would see similar numbers.

Old 05-29-2008, 11:19 AM
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Evil_Merlin
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

What does it matter?

Marseille flew over a 1000.
Old 05-29-2008, 11:28 AM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM


ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

What does it matter?

Marseille flew over a 1000.
You are using numbers to say that the german planes were better but don't mention that they had to fly 5-10 times as many missions as allied pilots.
Old 05-29-2008, 11:57 AM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

It's been quite a while since I contributed to one of these threads (the topic pops up regularly.) I believe the topic was more about planes, and has been diverted to pilots and kills.

I want to mention the perspective of the American fighter pilot just after December 7, 1941. He could hope for a Navy assignment, in a Wildcat, or an Army Air Force assignment, in a P-38, P-39, or P-40. The War would not allow him to wait until late 1943 for the frequently mentioned Mustangs, Corsairs, Thunderbolts and Hellcats.

Early engagements most notably involved the Navy pilots, who turned the war in the Pacific around with Wildcats, torpedo bombers and dive bombers. Early efforts in the European theatre with the P-38 and P-40 are not as legendary as those in China with the P-40, but there were successes. All these made it possible to keep the enemies away from the homeland long enough to develop even more capable P-38's, and the others.

I like to mention the efforts of those under the command of General Kinney in the Pacific, who modified B-25's for ground and surface attack, developed the skip-bombing technique, and used the P-38 like a scalpel in striking at long distances. Then, 18 months or so later, the Mustang (and others) showed up to equip fighting units.

The P-51's certainly did the job they were developed for. I'm glad we had those earlier men and machines, so there was time to develop them.

Dave Olson
Old 05-29-2008, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

If you read some history books you will fine that German pilots scored many victories very quicky. If I remember correctly a few of them had more than 100 in 6 months or so. I believe the opponets skill and weapon do make a difference but the numbers are incredible. Conditions where different for each side and each location. IMHO the German pilots racked up incredible victory rates under horrible conditions. Several Japanese pilots did the same. I am not for or against any nations pilots but I do admire the US naval pilots in 1941/42 the most.

I will never build a P-51 or P-47 or Hellcat. They are just to many out there for me. Give me a Macchi C200, Nakajima Hayabusa, Brewster Buffalo or Grumman Wildcat.
Old 05-29-2008, 12:20 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Did the P-51 inspire Grumman to build the F8F Bearcat??

Hmmmm NOPE!

Grumman test pilots flew a captured FW190A and found it to be such a great combination of qualities that they decided to build upon what they experienced in the FW190.

Just imagine if they had flown a FW190D9!!
Old 05-29-2008, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

ORIGINAL: roy batty

Did the P-51 inspire Grumman to build the F8F Bearcat??

Hmmmm NOPE!

Grumman test pilots flew a captured FW190A and found it to be such a great combination of qualities that they decided to build upon what they experienced in the FW190.

Just imagine if they had flown a FW190D9!!
Same thing happened with the British and the Seafury.

You can also trace the Mig 15 and the F-86's roots to the ME262. The Germans were and still are engineering masters.
Old 05-29-2008, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Since the German planes have more kills, the German planes are better in that regards.

They flew 5-10 times more missions, usually in a plane that had seen 100's of combat flights. Seems to me those German birds were also more reliable than the Allies had.

I'm not short changing the Allies aircraft as they were quite good, but until supplies started impacting the German industries, they were miles ahead of anything the Allies had on the table.
Old 05-29-2008, 01:27 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM


ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

I'm not short changing the Allies aircraft as they were quite good, but until supplies started impacting the German industries, they were miles ahead of anything the Allies had on the table.
I respectfully disagree.

The P-47 was at least on par with anything the Luftwaffe had in 1942, and eventually became dominant at high altitudes. The spitfire was ***-for-tat with the 109s and 190s through-out the course of the entire war (sometimes inferior, sometimes superior). Then there is the Yak-3 which was a nightmare for the German pilots.

Germany had the ME262 that was a splendid design, but an operational nightmare. America and Britain could have introduced their own jet aircraft (P-80 & Meteor) of similar capabilities to the theater, but the difference is that they didn't HAVE to. Germany was in full desparation at that point, and they had to throw up what ever they could fly: ready or not.

I forget the actual numbers, but I recal reading that the FW-190Ds only flew a couple hundred sorties during the course of the entire war. The brunt of the late-war combat activities went to the FW-190A-8 and the Bf-109G series. (Like the 190D's, the 109K's also saw limited use).
Old 05-29-2008, 02:29 PM
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mobyal
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

More! More! LOL
Old 05-29-2008, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

When the Fw 190 entered the war, there was no allied plane that could compete with it. The Brits even said so and thus hastened production of later versions of the Spitty.

The ONLY reason the Me-262 was an operational nightmare was because it was not put into service when it could have been, and there was a lack of proper training and the supplies of good alloys were gone due to Allied bombing. Had the Me-262 entered combat when it was supposed to, it would have been big trouble for the Allies. The P-80 would have been no challenge to the Me-262 until its later revisions which showed up around 1948-49, and the Meteor was next to useless as a gun platfrom until the F8 was release (for various reasons, including a horrible canopy, ineffective rudders & alierons, snaking and other such stuff).




Again, until Allied bombing started damaging German's war industry, the Allies were well behind the 8-ball.

Tanks, large caliber weapons, rocket weapons, machine guns, aircraft were all ahead of where the Allies were.
Old 05-29-2008, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: P-51MUSTANG RCU.COM

Heck all i was trying to find out is if the p-51D had a 4 blade prop think it did, after looking at some pics. Seems there hard to find For RC aircraft. Guess i'll just stick to my 12X8 3 blade Graupner prop for now. kinda funny have a german prop on an american P-51D plane.. I was really hoping to go more scale with this plane. with a 4 blade prop for my O.S. 61 FX engine. But can't seem to find any. tower has some but there not real scale looking or have a large variety in sizes one looks to big and the other too small..

I'm sure there were alot of better planes then this one during the war, but i think that each had it best Charteristics and worst. And each was desighned for a certain purpose, sometimes they were pushed to do things beyond there intended capabilites, and that is what made them famous along with the pilots that piloted them.

I must admit there are alot of P-51's out there. There should be more of other type planes but the rc market likes to stick to certain types for some reason. Would be nice if there was a little more variety. I mean there are hundres of different planes that flew during the war. but you only see a select few that are available RC aircraft.

If the market built every plane out there i would of loved to have a Bulldog. it's not a warbird but it is a realy cool looking plane i think.. and fun to fly on the G3.5 Sim.. Maybe one day i'll find a bluprint to one and build my own..

But i Choose the P-51D as my first Nitro powered warbird. Since there is so much information on it. i wanted to go with a hangar 9 F6F hellcat. But the price was a determining factor, maybe that will be my second nitro warbird..

Well off to look for a scale looking 4 blade prop for my Nitroplanes P-51D Mustang..

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