Johnnie Red

Dear All

I also would like to point out that Evil Merlin has the "final touch" as far as he definately knows what he says. Knowledge is something that is been aquired through time, evaluation, research and of course studying. Let's not put our ego's above things. Lets put down our knowledge so please try not missinterperet things and try to view things in their positive way. Like that we all share our knowledge and we all get out of it with more wisdom.
Happy holidays to you all
J.R.

Bruno Stachel

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Kindleburger's P-51 designer was German.

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/schmued.htm

"Edgar Schmued was born al Hornback, Germany, 30 December 1899. At age eight, he first saw an airplane in flight and decided that aviation was to be his life's work. Edgar embarked early on a rigorous program of self-study to become an engineer, and later served an apprenticeship in a small engine factory. He also designed several innovative engine components for which he received patents. In his spare time, he continued the self-study of aviation. His experience in Germany led to employment with the General Motors Corporation in Brazil, and later with a General Motors subsidiary in the United Stales, the Fokker Aeroplane Company, where he began his career as an airplane design engineer.

In 1935, North American Aviation (NAA) was formed in Los Angeles, California, from General Motors. The talented and inventive Schmued by now a citizen of the United States was employed by North American in early 1936 as a preliminary design engineer and later became Chief of Preliminary Design. During his long tenure at NAA, he contributed greatly to the design of many airplanes.

By far his most famous design was the highly successful P-51 Mustang of World War II. His adaptation of the then new laminar flow wing and other innovations made the P-51 performance outstanding in all respects and its flying qualifies superb. This aircraft was still winning races and setting speed records for piston engine-powered airplanes decades after its production had ended. Edgar Schmued died at Oceanside, California, on 1 June 1985."

Evil_Merlin

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Good post.


But yeah, he really wasn't German in the terms we are talking about.

LDM

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"We are talking here with PRIDE but also with PREJUDICE!!!
And if we let PREJUDICE to keep us blind..then allright!! The Americans had the best aircraft and technology at that time...(But deep inside we ALL KNOW that the Germans had the best. It took for the allies decades to launch a rocket "??? (deep inside , I dont think any of us would disagree or have to look deep inside anything !!! )

Please can I have some cheese with this wine lol , I so sick of the Prejudice comments entered into a conversation when you simply state an opinion that also has merit .
I did not say that America has the best pilots my point is that the pilots are a critical part of the equipment . Germany had some of the best pilots in history we all know that and yes it took the allies years to launch a rocket , god bless them and to this day the USA still won the battle for space and still makes the best and safest Atomic powered Submarine in the world .
And thats not prejudice that is just fact .

I think its funny how a pilot comment was assumed it was only the allies that had good pilots
Now back on subject

hugger-4641

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Ok, I'll take your word on the Me110's etc and stand corrected, but I'd still fly the P-38 or the Mustang depending on which enemy plane I faced!

hugger-4641

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Forgot to list that my last post was in reply to Johnnie Red! sorry.

LDM

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CJ Zeros like the P40 varied in air speed based on model and altitude , Zeros are stated as low as 316 MPH to 350 in the same time period as meeting the P40ties .
The P40C had a top range of 345 mph and E was stated at 354 , my comments on diving were straight from two live encounters at the Reading Pa air show from 1985 thru 89 with Real P40 pilot who spoke about there experiences in WW2 .
personally I love the p40 , have over 8 of them in my RC warchest .

Ram-bro

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American Hardware: Am I missing any? Lets see someone else do the Germans, the Japanese, The Brits , the Italians and the Russians
F2F Brewster Buffalo
P6e hawk
P36 Lancer?
P38 Lightening
P39Aircobra
P40 Warhawk
P47 Thunderbolt
P51 Mustang
P61
P63 KingCobra
F4F Wildcat
F6F hellcat
F4U Corsair

Veltro

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For the Italians, it would be:

Fiat CR.42
Fiat G.50
Fiat G.55
Macchi C.200
Macchi C.202
Macchi C.205
Reggiane Re.2000
Reggiane Re.2001
Reggiane Re.2002
Reggiane Re.2005

The Germans kept the Re.2002 in production after the Italian surrender, and seriously considered putting the G.55 into full-scale production.

For the British, it would be:

Gloster Gladiator
Hawker Hurricane
Hawker Typhoon
Hawker Tempest
Supermarine Spitfire

G-Pete

The P-6E never saw combat nor the WW2, besides that only 46 were build...

Happy landings
G-Pete

Ram-bro

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Me-109 all variants .
Me-110
He-100
FW-190 all variants
Me-210
Me-410
Me-262 all variants
DO-335
Me-163
HE-162

Ram-bro

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The Chinese flew them. Havebt you ever seen the Japanese ariel footage of a chineese Hawk being shot down?

Veltro

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If I remember correctly, the Me-309 project didn't go anywhere beyond a couple of prototypes because it didn't offer any significant improvement over the ME-109, and actually created a couple of new problems.

Speaking of the ME-109, didn't the Germans lose something like 30% of them in take off or landing accidents?

If you ever look into the stats from the war in North Africa, you'll find that the P-40 Kittyhawk actually held its own against the ME-109. Yep, the klunky ol' P-40. In fact, the German pilots had the bad habit of claiming a "Curtiss" when they actually downed a Hurricane because they found the P-40 to be a more challenging opponent.

Ram-bro

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we forgot the Mosqito for the Brits

Evil_Merlin

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Not big on the Navy stuff:

USAAC:
P-35
P-36 Hawk
P-38 Lightning
P-39 Airacobra
P-40 Tomahawk/Kittyhawk/Warhawk
P-43 Lancer
P-44
P-47 Thunderbolt
P-51 Mustang
P-59 Airacomet
P-61 Black Widow
P-63 King Cobra
P-64 "Export Fighter Texan"
P-66 Vanguard
P-70 Havoc
P-75 Eagle
P-80 Shooting Star
P-82 Twin Mustang

Luftwaffe (including stuff that actually flew, not all saw combat):

Messerschmitt:
Bf 108 Taifun
Bf 109
Bf 110
Bf 162 Jaguar
Me 163 Komet
Me 209 (the speed racer)
Me 209-II (the failed replacement for the 109)
Me 210
Me 261 Adolfine
Me 262 Schwalbe
Me 321
Me 323 Gigant
Me 328
Me 410

Focke Wulf:
Fw 44 Stieglitz
Fw 56 Stösser
Fw 57
Fw 58 Weihe
Fw 61
Fw 62
Ta 152
Ta 154 Moskito
Fw 187 Falke
Fw 189 Uhu
Fw 190 Würger
Fw 191
Fw 200 Condor

Heinkel
He 46
He 50
He 59
He 60
He 70 Blitz
He 72 Kadett
He 100/113
He 111
He 112
He 114
He 115
He 119
He 162 Volksjäger
He 177 Greif
He 178 (leaving it in just because its so damn cool)
He 219 Uhu
He 274
He 277
He 280

Dornier
Do 10
Do 11
Do 12
Do 13
Do 14
Do 17
Do 18
Do 23
Do 24
Do 26
Do 215
Do 217
Do 317
Do 335

Arado
Ar 66
Ar 68
Ar 76
Ar 79
Ar 95
Ar 96/396
Ar 195
Ar 196
Ar 197
Ar 198
Ar 199
Ar 232
Ar 234 Blitz
Ar 240

Bücker
Bü 131 Jungmann
Bü 133 Jungmeister
Bü 180 Student
Bü 181 Bestmann

Gotha
Go 146
Go/Ho 229 (leaving it in because its cool)
Go 242
Go 244
Go 345
Ka 430

Blohm & Voss
BV 40
BV 138
Ha 139
BV 141
BV 142
BV 144
BV 155
BV 222 Wiking

Henschel
Hs 123
Hs 126
Hs 129

Fieseler
Fi 103
Fi 156 Storch
Fi 167

Ram-bro

My Feedback: (101)

Evil, your just wrong man, not the entire inventory for each combatant but just the fighter planes....showing off again

G-Pete

Just look here [link=http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/flugbew.htm]here the data (click here)[/link]
The Germans and their records...

Happy landings
G-Pete

Evil_Merlin

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Dude, I ain't breaking up the Excel sheet... if someone wants to, have at it!

Ram-bro

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OK evil, here is a question for you. Gpete made the comment that tehe P6E Haawk didn't fly during the war. I believe the chinese flew them and there is some footage of one being shot down by the Japanese. Can you confirm this?

Veltro

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Where's the little button with the British flag?

foodstick

Well you guys are all in deep trouble when I show up with my until now UNKNOWN variants ! So forget about all that you think you know..These planes were the best in the war from a small country that not only nobody knows the name off, but historians never even knew they were in the conflict. I am not supposed to reveal the name of the people involved..but they were located a little left of sweden, between a barn and the ocean.. Being a subterranean culture ...most people believe they don't even know about airplanes...But during the war they put many SUPERIOR Killing machines in the air.. AND they designed them ALL BY THEMSELVES! so don't be saying they looked at this, or captured that, its just coincidence...In fact in their war museams they have all the original sketchs with the handwritten note
(drawn by Mike, never seen an airplane before)

Veltro

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I always think of the Mosquito as a high-speed bomber. I forget about its night figher role and all the other things it did.

I realized that I also forgot the:

Boulton Paul Defiant
Bristol Beaufighter
Fairey Firefly
Fairey Skua
Gloster Meteor
Supermarine Seafire
Westland Whirlwind

Shouldn't the Hawker Typhoon come off the list since it is a ground attack plane?

ZERO-322

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OK NOW I AM A LITTLE CONFUSED AND AMAZED THIS THREAD IS STILL GOING , SO NOW I THINK ITS MY TURN TO STIR THINGS UP A BIT ......... CORSAIR JOCK MADE A COMPARISION OF THE P-40 VS THE ZERO , THE ONLY THING THAT STATEMENT TELLS ME IS THAT PILOTS GOT BETTER WITH TACTICS AND STRATEGY IN THE P-40 , WICH MADE THEM MORE SUCCESS FULL AGAINST THE ZERO , DOES THIS MAKE THE P-40 A SUPERIOR FIGHTER ? WAS IT A BETTER PLANE ? I DON'T THINK SO . SO I WOULD LIKE TO ASK IF YOU TAKE A FEW DOZEN PILOTS PUT THEM IN , FIGHTER AIRCRAFT , WEATHER IT BE GERMAN , JAPANESE , U . S OR WHAT HAVE YOU , AND THEY OUT SCORE , OUT SHOOT , OUT FLY ( WITH DOUBLE AND TRIPLE DIGIT NUMBERS ) AND DO THIS CONSISTANTLY THROUGH OUT THE ENTIRE WAR , YOU WOULD THINK WE COULD PUT THIS DEBATE TO BED ALREADY ..... ANYONE AGREE ?
EVIL ! HOW ABOUT YOU HELP US OUT WITH SOME OF THOSE STATS , YOU ARE SO WELL KNOWN AND LOVED FOR LOL !

Ram-bro

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here is something I found on Historynet.com. just interesting reading, just some exerpts

Few arguments are more futile–yet more perennially enticing–than the question of which was the greatest fighter of World War II. What criterion does one use to define ‘great?’ Performance? Versatility? Combat record? Don’t ask veteran fighter pilots to settle the matter. They have their own opinions, best expressed by the late Soviet ace of aces Ivan Kozhedub’s answer to the question: ‘The La-7. I hope you understand why.’ The Lavochkin La-7 was indisputably a great fighter. More important, it was his fighter.

One mark of a great fighter was the loyalty it earned from its pilots, and aircraft such as the Hawker Hurricane, Grumman F6F Hellcat, Lockheed P-38 Lightning, Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, North American P-51 Mustang, Yakovlev Yak-3 and Mitsubishi A6M Zero still have their die-hard partisans. Aviation enthusiasts’ attachment to some planes, like the Supermarine Spitfire, transcends loyalty and can best be described as outright affection.

To that list must inevitably be added the Messerschmitt Me-109. Perhaps it was not the best performer of the war, and even its pilots would admit that it was not the safest or most comfortable plane to fly. But its combat record, from beginning to end, was monumental, and it was the weapon of choice for the greatest fighter pilots in history. Comparing the Me-109G with the Brewster B-239 that he had flown previously, Finnish ace of aces Eino Ilmari Juutilainen said that ‘while the Brewster was a gentleman’s airplane, the Messerschmitt was a killing machine.’

That impression was echoed by Eric Brown, a Royal Navy pilot who test-flew an Me-109G in 1944: ‘The Bf-109 always brought to my mind the adjective’sinister.’ It has been suggested that it evinced the characteristics of the nation that conceived it, and to me it always looked lethal from any angle, on the ground or in the air; once I had climbed into its claustrophobic cockpit, it felt lethal!’

Anyone who flew the Me-109, and anyone who faced it in battle, would be inclined to agree. The P-47 inspired awe. The Zero earned loyalty. The Spitfire gained devotion. The Me-109 commanded respect.

Allied pilots who had the opportunity to sit in the Me-109’s cockpit claimed it to be so narrow that they could barely work the control column between their knees. ‘The windscreen supports were slender and did not produce serious blind spots,’ said Eric Brown, ‘but space was so confined that movement of the head was difficult for even a pilot of my limited stature.’ The British and their American colleagues were also appalled at its minimal instrumentation. Soviet ace Vitali I. Popkov, who scored 41 victories in LaGG-3s and La-5FNs, flew a captured Me-109 and, like his Western colleagues, came away amazed that its pilots had been able to perform as well as they did.

It has been said, however, that where you sit is where you stand, and German Me-109 pilots saw things from a decidedly different perspective. Franz Stigler, a 28-victory Experte, test-flew captured American fighters and commented: ‘I didn’t like the Thunderbolt. It was too big. The cockpit was immense and unfamiliar. After so many hours in the snug confines of the [Me-109], everything felt out of reach and too far away from the pilot. Although the P-51 was a fine airplane to fly…it too was disconcerting. With all those levers, controls and switches in the cockpit, I’m surprised [American] pilots could find the time to fight.’
Although Allied bombing made it difficult to calculate an exact figure, it has been estimated that as many as 33,000 Me-109s of all models were built, making it second only to the Soviet Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik as the most mass-produced warplane in history. Moreover, the ubiquitous Me-109 was credited with shooting down more enemy aircraft and producing more aces than any single fighter in the annals of aerial warfare. Although not the most aesthetically pleasing airplane ever built, the Messerschmitt earned its place among the aviation classics–and, if not affection, at least respect.

Johnnie Red

Dear LDM

The topic is not going to do with the pilots ability. It was set from the first post that it was going to do with the machine itself.
We all post our personal judgement with our evaluation criteria. Please do not get offended and if you were excuse my language I have to apologize for the incident. You see english is not my mother language.
Anyway technology was in favor of the germans and this is proven from the FACT that right after the war 300 trainloads only to carry the V2 (A4) Rockets and spares were used from the allies in accordance with 126 of the principal designers, including both Wernher von Braun and Walter Dornberger.
Anyway ...Anyone of us has his own opinion so I respect yours and everybody elses in this forum. After all we are all aviation enthusiasts and all parties in the world has helped aviation to evolve.
Happy landings
J.R.