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power of observation

Old 08-22-2010, 11:40 PM
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Ram-bro
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Default power of observation

here is something for those of us who think we know what we know. I am curious about what everyone gets from this picture and any other ones that you may post on this thread. I will post a picture that I got off the internet. AS an inteligence officer what information are getting form this pic. Hopefully it makes sense so here goes.
What do you seein this pic and what info would you get based upon this info? Have fun with it and if you have a pic that gives interesting info, goahead and post it.
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Old 08-22-2010, 11:47 PM
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dvs1
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Default RE: power of observation

From the formation I would say the P-51 and the P-39 are escorting the other plane for some reason.

The fact the other plane has no nationality markings may have something to do with it.

Thats all i get from it.
Old 08-22-2010, 11:48 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

is it a P51 or a A 36?
Old 08-22-2010, 11:50 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

Chad, this is your fault....you and that Ram Jet powered P51
Old 08-23-2010, 12:00 AM
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dvs1
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Default RE: power of observation

Honestly cant tell the difference from the picture.

thought the only difference between the two was the A-36 had dive brakes and 6 vs 4 wing mounted M2's
Old 08-23-2010, 12:04 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

Thats is the interesting thing about this pic. Some of the experts will be able to tell whattime of th eyear it is , possibly which war they were flyin in, what mark of mustang/ apache an p30 and the A20, wether it is a Havoc, a Boston or what ever the French called it. I am just curious to see what hins and observations guys come back with.
Old 08-23-2010, 12:17 AM
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Chad Veich
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Default RE: power of observation

Not sure I completely understand the concept but I'll take a crack at it based on my own perspective.

A. The photo must be a vintage one and taken some time in 1942 or 1943. What makes me think so? Well, as an avid follower of full size warbirds I know that there are not currently any flyable A-20 Havocs. Nor are there any Allison powered Mustangs or P-39 Airacobras in the markings shown. The two fighters both carry the short lived star in circle USAAC national insignia which was used relatively briefly from approximately May of 1942 to June of 1943. Last, but not least, the photo has an "old" quality to it! The fact that the A-20 carries no visible markings is interesting but doesn't signify anything to me. (Maybe they are there and we just can't see them?)

B. The photo was most probaby taken State side rather than in a combat zone. I've done a considerable amount of research and I can't ever recall seeing a similar formation in a combat setting. Plus, all the aircraft appear to be in basic production markings with no personal or unit type markings. I could, of course, be totally wrong on this one but my gut tells me it is probably a State side publicity type photo.
Old 08-23-2010, 12:28 AM
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Chad Veich
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Default RE: power of observation

PS - I'm relatively certain it is not an A-36 in the photo as I don't see any barrells for the nose mounted MG's. A search of the serial number would settle the issue but that's more work than I want to do right now!
Old 08-23-2010, 02:39 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

I'm pretty sure that this is a P-51A. First flights were in February 1943 and deliveries began in March. This fits Chad's comments about his guess of timelines. The Mustang was delivered to the AAF in olive drab on top and a grey on bottom. Serials for the P-51 were 43-6003 to 43-6312 starting with the P-51A-1NA and ending with the P-51A-10NA. (Note that the number on the fuse is 36013; and, I have seen a picture of a P-51A marked with the number 36004, so this information seems to confirm it would be a P-51A.)

Also, I believe I read somewhere that the A-20s that were used in the nightfighter / intruder roles were painted completely black, and without any national insignias or evenunit markings.
Old 08-23-2010, 02:59 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

Also, you can see the ocean in the background. All 3 manufacturers'factories (Bell, Douglas, and North American) were located in Southern California (Santa Monica, San Diego, etc.). So,it would be relatively easy to put all three together, in one place, for a State-side, publicityphoto, right near the ocean. In fact, weren't each of these planes originallyoffered through the Lend-Lease Program? (Yes, even theAllison powered P-51s were developed initially asa response to the Britishrequesting NorthAmerican to build P-40s under license, before America's entry into the war. But, North American had too much pride to build somebody else's model, so they developed the P-51 in a record 6 months . . .from conception to flying prototype.) It is possible that if this is apublicity photo, itmight be specifically for Lend-Lease marketingpurposes.
Old 08-23-2010, 03:34 AM
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Default RE: power of observation


Judging by the rudder trim I'd say the pilot of the P-39 is a woman with red hair that has issues with her father that really wanted a son.
Old 08-23-2010, 07:52 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

Pretty rare to have color airial photos is early 1942-43,,
I'd guess these are post war production surplus being flown around by guys that had some cash to burn in the late 40s early 50s

Hard to tell the coast line being so overcast,, So Cal most likely,, I'd guess Long Beach, or San Diego based on the typical June Gloom
Old 08-23-2010, 07:57 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

While the A-20 and the P-51 were built in Southern California, I believe the P-39 was built in Buffalo, New York.

This is, no doubt, a publicity shot taken stateside in the early 40s as I can't think of any operations where the P-39 and the P-51A worked together. The A-20s during the early phase of the war had enough power that allowed them to compare favorably with the fighters of the day and usually operated without a fighter escort.

As to the significance of this particular picture, I haven't a clue.

Al

Old 08-23-2010, 08:08 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

North American test flew many airframes with older markings. The serial number on the Mustang is placed where North American placed the number in production and Chat earlier mentioned. Hard to tell when exactly the picture was taken.
It looks also more like a group flight not an escort - the escort would cover the flanks, the rear or sweep the front.

My best guess - delivery to the Brits. If so, AmishWarlord is not that wrong - she is a female WASP but she is blond
Old 08-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

My first question is whether the photo is authentic.

I question this for two reasons:

First, when I download it, then magnify it, there are visible distorations around the P-39 and A-26 shich do not appear around the P-51A

Second, the shadowing on the P-39 does not seem to match that of the P-51A (Note the side in shadow comparatively). This could be due the P-39 slight tilt to port, however.


The photo appears to have been taken in late spring as there appears to be snow on the elevated ground in the photo's forground.
Old 08-23-2010, 09:55 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

that is alot of information from a single photograph. WE have established a time frame, a location, the type of aircraft although there is some doubt about it being a p51 or a A36 and even the possibilty of there being female ferry pilots flying these. I know I dont recall any info that shows the p51/A36 and the P39 flying in combat together considering th P39 flew mostly in the Pacific theater under American markings.

There really wasnt anything special about the pic just wondered what kind of information one could get from a simple picture. Just goes to show you that a pic is worth a 1000 words. Apparently some f us do deeper research than others.....I never would have come up with a red headed ferry pilot with male issues. Anybody else got a pic that we could test our observation skills?
Old 08-23-2010, 05:09 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

ok, here is nother pics for you to decipher. Have at it
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:43 PM
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Chad Veich
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Default RE: power of observation


ORIGINAL: Ram-bro

ok, here is nother pics for you to decipher. Have at it

Spanish built Buchon in faux Luftwaffe paint and with a smoke system. Either a movie still or an airshow photo.
Old 08-23-2010, 08:12 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

Flown by a Hot Latina w/black hair and deep green eyes, ay mi corazon
Old 08-23-2010, 08:27 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

Looks like a screen capture from the movie (1969 ) Battle of Britain...
Old 08-23-2010, 09:36 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

As an intellegence officier , i would have thrown the the photo out before judgeing the markings , the plane , the ocean , the year ect .
the sky is clear , the shadowing on the third plane appear impossible based on the sun shadowing on the two fighters .
No indication of what would cause the tail of the larger plane to appear so dark when no clouds or other planes appear visually in the pic leading me to the pic is a fake
Old 08-23-2010, 10:41 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

Dang Chad, that was quik, here is another one for you guys,,,,,What does this picture tell us
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:31 PM
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Default RE: power of observation

109E's (E-4 or later ) Trop.
JG27

North Africa, or maybe Libya?...(I've got that same pic in one of my 109 books, but can't recall right off hand )
Old 08-24-2010, 08:03 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

Well guys, back to the original pic - the Mustang (for that is what it is - well spotted Chad!) is a P-51A-5NA, the first of the batch of 55off -5NAs.
Can't find exactly when it was built so let's go with the dates mentioned above. looks like a promo pic but it seems that the Mustang is already in service/deleivered as it seems to have an individual number (7) on the lower cowling.
The A-20 has a solid nose and either guns or, maybe, some aerial array(?) and seems to have an all-over finish of drab. Can't get much else from it except that I believe the pilot had fruit for breakfast....
On the subject of the location, it certainly looks like the formation is Stateside, not Europe, but isn't that a lake in the background? Across the far side and under the Havoc's tail I think you can see the far shoreline.

cheers
Rick
Old 08-24-2010, 09:09 AM
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Default RE: power of observation

Jagtgeschwader 27 North Africa - 20 Month fighting over sand...Major Neuman in the Air and General Rommel on the ground
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO9EbFmLoRQ[/youtube]

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