RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Thanks Chris. I learned something new today.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Great job - I too learned something today
Thank you!

Very best!

Greg Anixter
Scottsdale, AZ

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

I have several ARFs I have been happy with for several years until I read this thread. A couple of them have glaring insignia errors once you really look at them. Happy to say the insignia on TF Corsair .60 ARF looks OK (without doing a bunch of measuring and really close inspection).<div>
</div><div>Regarding full scale, I happen to be looking at some film clips on the "Critical Past" website of flight operations on Guadacanal in May, 1943. One clip showed some Corsairs and Wildcats (if I remember right) with insignias on the top of both wings. Wouldn't have even noticed that detail without reading this thread.</div><div>
</div><div>Brian</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

I went looking in my inventory at work for that Corsair pics but did not have it.

here is detail how the underside STBD wing was done for a Dauntless on USS Intrepid in Charleston NC.
http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/The-In.../Exhibits.aspx

Adding Corsair picture with 6 position markings. This is production plane, 1943, with little white stickers the QA inspector stickers before removal.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

I make markings up for many people and I regularly have the dilemma of looking at restorations with poorly reproduced insignia and customers not knowing what to do. Should they copy the restoration or use the correct markings as per the original aircraft. It causes many problems for sure. One common error I see is the length of the bar at R measured from the outer edge of the circle that contains the star rather than from the point of the star. It's only a slight difference, but it does show up when you know what you are looking for.

On an addendum to the exceptions that had insignia on both lower surfaces I discovered the P-47's attached to 5th ERS were seen like this.

Nice work anyway. I can refer people to this thread should it be necessary :)

Nigel

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Nigel, i love that plane.

5th ERS flew "war weary" P-47s over the English Channel to drop life rafts to downed bomber crews. Make sure you add "WW" below the Bruno numbers on the vert fin.. They usually flew with drop tank, 4 smokes (below belly near trailing edge) and life rafts on they pylons and half the machine guns removed for a total of 4 vice 8. Attached is underside markings. My yellow P-47 Razerback was done up in this scheme, but as 5F * K. And my own nose art and I name her "Circling Angel"
I love the unique planes.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Actually many P-47's in the ETO had insiginia on the undersides of both wings. This was due to recognition errors, the aircraft often being mistaken for a FW-190. In some instances one or both of the under wing insignia were oversize as well. Always consult your documentation first! :)

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

How about the very early markings with the red ball. Used on trainers and early wildcats, maybe you could add some info on those. Glad I have'nt done my markings yet on my P-47.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

oops never mind.</p>

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Chris, others,
I need some help here, I may someday do my giant corsair as VF-17 (skull and crossbones) with either side # 3, 8, or 31.

tonight while loking at #3, I finally noticed something strange? are my eyes just tired? is the photo really showing a diff insignia?
I won't state it just to see of others also note it.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

I beleive it was 1943 that the red surround was used for a short period. It was discontinued because some pilots just saw the red in a dog fight and shot at it thinking they saw a meat ball. So it was discontinued.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Luft-Ganster,

Chris' post #9 covers the period of red surround. "by 14 August 1943; just over 2 months after the red surround was directed."


But that is not what I noticed. want to try again?

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Looks like the entire white bar is surrounded in red but it could just be an anomoly in the picture. Sure looks that way to me though. Somebody may have mis-read the directive when adding the red!

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Chad,

that is what I noticed!! the left inside of white bar has a red outline where normally only blue is!

Since I'm just a Warbird Rally and not competing, I'll just go with more well known red surround.

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

I used to teach the Navy's Paint and Finish course in Norfolk. We taught the old fashioned way to lay out the national insignia on an aircraft. One of the things we did was make a "ruler" with holes in it at strategic lengths, so we could simply scribe the circle, the border, and all the stripes. Made life much easier. I must have graded hundreds of final exam boards, which included either a tri color insignia or single color insigina and letters, plus someother incidental stuff. I've actually, somewhere, got instructions for laying out most of Nato's national insignia.

Actually, you can find it on the web... MIL-STD-2161. Also has instructions for painting the US insignia, but I think just the latest versions. Haven't cracked that book in years....

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Just stumbled onto this Thread.

Good thing I've been making my stuff correct all these years.

Charles

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Nice explanation, Thanks.

The whole topic made me want to go check my homemade stencil and paint insignias....Whew! I passed!:D

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Couple of notes.

Many P-47s (especially in Europe) wore insignia on both bottom surfaces of wings. This was an anti fratricide measure. Don't assume all P-47 s did though. This was also an exception and not the norm. It is very rare to find any other aircraft type done that way, and many P-47s did not.

In addition to the red color used being confused with the Japs, one of the primary reasons the red surround was painted over with blue was the complication of supporting it in the field. Often it was simply applied incorrectly as in the photo on this thread. The other issue was red fading and paint quality issues. In addition, stocking another paint color for maintenance added complication.

It is risky to over generalize but...if the insignia did not include bars, as in the very early part of the war you will probably find them placed in all 6 positions. Either with red meatball or just a star on blue circle. Unless a rare photo shows otherwise, assume only 4 positions used if the insignia has the bars.

And yes you will find what are called "transition" insignia. Insignia like the star and bars with no surround. These are cases where the squadron misinterpreted the directive or hadn't finished the work yet!

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Chris,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge, very informative post which I will certainly use in the future. I hope it opens the door to perhaps similar posts on WWI/II/post-war British, German, and other air forces.
Thank you again,
Bruno

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Thanks Bruno,
I wish the jet flyers were interested in accuracy as much as warbirds flyers are. I too look forward to any info from research someone might have on British and German insignia.
Chris

RE: Tips on the US National Insignia
 

Excellent post. I never knew most of this detail. Thx

Jeff

What about the insignia that is only White??? No stripes, nothing but white star and bars.

The all white insignia (used on Navy all blue scheme) is no different. Just leave the blue background and blue surround off.

it's funny I read this thread couple of weeks back as I was about to apply the paint masks for the insignaia on my 85" P47 build.

Promptly forgot all about it.
50:50 chance of getting orintation of the mask wrong way and I managed to do so ended up using decals instead!!

Just revisited this post. Great information. Do you guys have correct color info for the red, white, and blue used on the insignias? Even better would be corresponding color names for companies such as Tamiya, Testors Model Master and others in acrylic or enamel for those who want to paint their own.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2160631In this graphic, we show a summary of the way the insignia is constructed. In RC models we still see the majority of modelers continue to get it wrong. It is just as easy to do it correctly. The ARF manufacturers simply don't care.

Note on the sheet the 3 FS paint numbers thus:
Insignia Red FS11136 or 31136 semi-gloss Model Master #1705
Insignia White FS17875 Model Master #1745
Insignia Blue FS15044 or 35044 semi-gloss Model Master #1719.

Excellent information contained in this small thread. Thanks Chris,