RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam I'm glad that you are served! .. I knew you'd find something interesting !....if you search any more photos or info about to P-61 try to search on Google image or E-mule i'm sure you can find much more info and "MANY MANY" photos!....;)

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

FINALLY GETTING STARTED.
While the panther's FG resin is drying, I might as well start on this baby!

Crutches.
Nick uses crutches in his plans.
Since all formers attach to the crutch, it must be flat and square.
One building table will have the center fuse and the other table will have the booms.
1/4" X 1/2" soft balsa is used for the 'main run' on each side of the fuse/booms and 1/8" X1/2" soft balsa is glued to these in a triangular pattern (as on a bridge). Once the entire crutch is assembled, it can then be removed and put on building blocks.

pic 1/2:
The center fuse 1/4"X1/2" balsa pinned to the plans.
Lots of pins to insure the balsa stays exactly on the plans.

pic 3:
One of the booms crutch.
The fuse and each boom takes three 1/4X1/2" balsa sticks.
The 1/8X1/2" balsa sticks in the picture will be used to complete the crutch.
Carpenter's glue will be used for the crutch assembly.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Is the crutch not spruce?

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

I didn't think the crutch had to be spruce... isn't it cut away after the formers and stringers are added on the Widow?

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

The crutch is just soft balsa: it is not integral to the structural integrity of the frame (it's strickly to keep everything on 'the same plane').
The structural integrity is like a crustacean lobster: all that planking glued together with FG cloth makes for a hard non-flexible structure (ie: look inside any FG fuse: there's hardly anything in there).
The spars on the inner wing are spruce.

==============
Crutches (cont)

pic 1/2:
Tools of the trade.
Razor saw, miter box, sand paper on a stick and carpenter's glue.
I'm surprised they still make wax paper: before sandwich bags came along, this was used by my mom (and she's 92).
About the only thing I use it for is to protect the plans.

pic 3:
All the cross members (1/8"X1/2") have been glued in.
I pencil mark each piece to the length to my outside balsa and make them just a 'hair' longer than needed.
I want a snug fit but not so tight as it moves the outside sticks (all those pins at each location also insures everything stays 'as is').
Two to four strokes of the sandpaper stick on the end and I get a perfect fit.
Where there is a former in the plans (as in this picture), I use a piece of scrap balsa to remove excess glue so the former will have a snug fit to the crutch and, later, I won't have to cut part of the former away to get it to fit.

pic 4:
The diagonals also cut just a little long and each end is sanded to a wedge.

pic 5:
Fuse done.

pic 6:
One boom done.

pic 7:
Some cross members need to be proud of the out side sticks to allow for ply formers that will be added, later.

Stands to hold the crutches.

pic 8:
I cut a bunch of ply into 6" high with varying widths.
Cutting all of them at the same time using the fence on the table saw insures that all are exactly the same height to each other. which will insure that out crutch stays level.
(I finally got to use some of that little scrap plywood in the shop for something useful!)

pic 9:
Bases also cut out of plywood.
I had to insure the bases were all cut out of the same plywood as you can go to home depot one month for some 3/4" thick ply and then get some more six months later and the thickness will be different.

pic 10/11:
Bases glued/brad nailed to the vertical pieces.
I drilled small holes in the corners of the bases in case I need to secure them to the building table due to the fuse warping when planking. Since plywood doesn't take pins well, I'll also have to sister some hard balsa to the sides at the tops of the stands.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam you are the my best friend!:D how always you are great!:D.if one day you decide to build the F-6F3 Ziroli let me know ..

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Center fuse:

Dry fit.
The crutch was put on about five risers so all the formers can be added.
Initially, I was having trouble just getting the F-7 (start from the middle and work out) to sit on the crutches until I realized that wing support FWS-1 needs to be added next to the crutch (temporarily held by some clamps).
I then was wondering why all the formers were not the correct width along the crutch until I looked at the plans and saw that F-1 starts at the second cross member on the crutch (when all else fails, read the instructions!).
Three or four of the formers were cut in half: only one (F-9) needs to be glued on in halves because there's no way to get F-9 on with FWS-1 on the crutch. It still took three hands just to get F-7 and F-8 on the crutch because FWS-1 has to moved while moving F-7 and F-8 into their proper location.
On the glue up, I'll just wiggle the formers forward, put some glue on the crutch and move the former into it's location.
I also cut aircraft ply (5 ply) versus 3 ply in the kit for F-2/3/4 where the nose gear is mounted.
I also put arrows on each former as it's difficult to know which end is up on the fuse.
Note: in the last picture, you can see F-11 is upside down. this one is split in half and I forgot to put 'arrows' on it.
There's some severe contours on the fuse: it's going to be 'fun' planking this baby!

pic 1:
F2/3/4 traced onto 1/8" thick aircraft ply.

pic 2:
The band saw was used to cut the stringer notches.

pic 3:
The scroll saw was used for everything else.

pic 4:
New formers on the right.

pic 5-8:
Dry fit.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam, you are one Bad Mamma Jamma! Way to put the pedal down comin' off the line!

One of thes days, some body is gonna love you enough to buy you a glass building board for Xmas, and the rest of us will be in your rear-view mirror.

How do you build without stepping on trains?

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam wasn't this a precut kit? I see you are cutting notches for the stringers? Is that the way the formers come? I only ask because I am think of building the P-61 one day.....

thanks
Peter

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Kram,
I usually have a train running while I'm working on a plane!

========
Peter.
Yep, I mentioned in post 1 that this was an aeroplane works hand cut full kit.
I'm cutting new formers with notches because I mentioned that the original ply is only 3-ply and too weak for around the landing gear.
Picture 4 in post #32 shows the original formers on the left with my new ones on the right.
I guess that I didn't explain that very well in the previous post.
I don't know why but it seems like all the kit cutters only use 3 ply for critical areas.
The 5 ply is much heavier, denser and difficult to bend as well as cut.
After cutting the 5 ply, it feels like I'm cutting butter when I cut the 3 ply.
pic 1 has the 3 ply on top with the 5 ply below it (big difference).

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam if I can ask you How length is the fuselage ?....(" the spruce Crutch")....without fiber glass and clear canopy.. ;)
I ask you because 'I wanted to know if the P-61 and F-15 are equal in length or to different length

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

at-6,
the center fuse is 60" long but the entire plane is 84" long from the nose of the center fuse to the rudders on the back of the booms; with a 114" wingspan.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Center fuse (cont)

Formers attached to the crutch.
The plans come with a set of instructions.
The instructions are only about six pages but they have important information in them.
First: when I built the fuse crutch, I was also to glue on the wing support FWS-1 to the outsides of the crutch.
This wasn't critical as I glued it on while gluing on formers F-7 and F-8.
Actually, I don't think I could get F-8 by FWS-1 while it's glued to the crutch as the slots in F-8 are only wide enough for the narrow part of FWS-1 and FWS-1 gets larger at each end since it supports the wing. F-7 came split in half in the kit so it could be put on the crutch with no problems.
I had already glued the two halves of F-7 together so to get FWS-1 and F-7/8 glued to the crutch, I first put carpenter's glue on the FWS-1 and the crutch where FWS-1 makes contact with it. I then used F-6 to hold the front part of FWS-1 at the front while the back of FWS-1 rested on the table. Next, I slide F-7 and F-8 (at the same time) over the back of the crutch to their respective locations, while also slipping FWS-1 inside the formers.
I then put glue on the contact areas where F-7/8 meet the crutch, and then slid FWS-1 up and into the slot of F-7/8 and then clamped FWS-1 to the crutch insuring the bottoms of the crutch and FWS-1 were flush to each other.
I had to put weights on the crutch to make contact with all the risers as there was some vertical bowing in the crutch (the crutch, by itself, only has lateral rigidity due to the cross member, and not horizontal). I then used my carpenters square to insure F-7 and F-8 were perpendicular to the crutch.
Note: if the above didn't put you to sleep, nothing will!

Since weights are needed to hold the crutch until it dries, no additional formers were added to the rear as those formers had to be removed in order to slide F-7/8 on from the rear of the crutch.
The front, however, already has the former F-1 to F-6 dry fitted in place.
I moved F-6, F-5 and F-4 forward about an inch, applied a liberal amount of carpenters glue to the contact area and pushed F-6, F-5 and F-4 into their respective positions.

I didn't do F-1 to F-3 as they will be getting the nose gear mounts and I need to double check everything before securing those formers.

Before gluing any formers in, I, again, double checked that all formers had their 'right' side up by cross referencing the plans.

pic 1:
Before gluing in F-7 to the crutch, I cut a circle out for the air tank as the original plans used a plastic beverage bottle.

pic 2-5:
FWS-1 and F-7/8 glued to the crutch.

pic 6:
F-6 glued to the crutch.
I put a straight stick across F-6 to F-8 to insure these are perfectly level to each other. F-7 was down about an 1/8" but had room in the crutch/FSW-1 slot to slide it up to the correct position.

pic 7:
F-5/4 then glued in.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Good god, you are flying!

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam, where are you building??

This looks like a huge model train hall...cool!

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam, Are those rises secured to your table top(doors) or are they just sitting there? Dan.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam i post an pictures for you, of the P-61 and the F-15 this last is an derivation of the P-61 ... I think a lot more 'beautiful and aerodynamic than it is predecessor .... really do not know if both have the same length but I think not, I think that F-15 is significantly more 'long compared to the P-61 ... however i post the photos if you never liked the first version .:D

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Merlin,
The balsa gods are making me build (see pic 1 for a picture of the 'balsa' gods!)

G-pete:
In my basement, 33X47' layout, 1500' of handlaid rail on individual wooden ties.
Takes 30 minutes to go from one city to the last.
see pics.

Dan:
The risers just sit there and I put weights on the crutch to insure all stays level.

AT-6:
Thanks for the pics, dude.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam you are very lucky at build in an place so big.... but not likely that the elevated wood dust which is a create black out or electric shot? that is very dangerous... I saw that you've already done to the company during these cold months! ... my Congratulations ;)...
p.s no problem for the photos!

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Back to the black widow!

Center fuse (cont)

formers F-9 to F-12, wing mounting blocks and FWS-2 installed.

I installed formers F-9 to F-12 along the back of the crutch.
After putting in F-10, fortunately, I put that stick to check top alignment and F-10 was a 1/4" too high.
I took F-10 off and checked the plans and the former was cut incorrectly.
I used F-10A as a guide to draw a new line and removed the waste.
I checked the bottom and all was aligned OK so I knew the top had to be removed.
I'm glad that I put arrows on all the formers indicating which way was up as I glued F-11 upside down: again, just after gluing it so it was a quick and easy fix (carpenters glue gives that 'time' luxury).
I figured it was now a good time to epoxy in the front/rear wing mounts.
This was a good time as it was a lot easier sanding them to fit between FWS-1 and FWS-2.
I then epoxied in FWS-2 (FWS-1 goes on the inside of formers and FWS-2 goes on the outside. FWS-2 was also epoxied to all the formers as well as to the wing mounts.
To insure the two wing supports were level, I weighted two paint sticks along FWS-1 and, then, epoxied FWS-2 to align with the paint sticks.
The back end of FWS-2 did not reach F-11 (as it suppose to do) so I glued a small piece of triangular stock to F-11 to bridge the gap.
When dry fitting FWS-2 to the notches in the formers, the ply was not aligning with the edge of the formers and I had to add some filler ply between the formers and FWS-2 to get alignment.
I found out why: like buying today's 3/4" thick ply: it's not really the thickness stated.
The 3 ply stuff is narrower than true 1/8" thick 5 ply aircraft plywood: another reason why it's so weak!

pic 1:
my 3 blade 3.3" FW-190 spinners came in from skyshark.
These are the closest that I can find for a P-61 spinner (must not be too many people building P-61's!!)

pic 2:
F-10 was 1/4" too high before trimming.

pic 3:
F-9/10 installed.
F-9 is in two pieces and glued 'in place', which is necessary since it can't slide along FWS-1.

pic 4/5:
F-11 upside down in the first picture.
Those arrows saved me!

pic 6:
F-12 done.
This is the back canopy so most of the former will, later, be cut away.

pic 7-12:
Wing mounts sanded to correct contour and epoxied to FWS-1 and formers.
I made sure the tops of the mounts were aligned with the top of FWS-1.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Center fuse (cont)

pic 1:
The triangular stock glued to F-11 so FWS-2 'tail end' has a surface contact.
I didn't want to move F-11 forward since this is a canopy area and the former might end up in a place other than a canopy frame form.

pic 2-8:
FWS-2 epoxied to the wing mounts as well as to all the formers.
Paint sticks used to keep the two wing supports FWS-1/2 aligned with each other.
Front and rear wing mounts.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Center fuse (cont)

Air tanks.
Last thing done for tonight.
Since I'm having six doors also open, I put in two robart large air tanks.
The back one is just forward of former F-11 which should give me enough room for Dbalsa's full cockpit kit.

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

samparfitt if I had $$[>:]

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

Sam I ask to you in since you are building first person the P-61. Can you say me if it would be possible to build the F-15 REPORTER version with plans Ziroli. and what changes should be made to have this last ...wold be possible?....thanks and soon;)

RE: ZIROLI P-61 BLACK WIDOW BUILD
 

AT-6,
I'm sure the plans would be extremely useful for the conversion but it would take a lot of time to study the plans to know what changes have to be made (something the builder will have to do).

================================
Center fuse (cont)

The center removable hatch construction.
Formers F-6A and F-10A were clamped to formers F-6 and F-10 with 1/32" thick spacers between them so the hatch can be removed.
FWS-3 was then glued to all the formers between F-6A and F-10A and then stringers were glued on.
FWS-3 being thinner than 1/8", I put different size shims between FWS-3 and the formers to get FWS-3 flush with the contours of the formers (which will make sheeting much easier and stronger).
Formers F-8 and F-9 had 90 degree corners, and after looking at my VQ P-61, I rounded over those corners with about a 1/2" radii.
One side of the top of F-9 was also a little high so I sanded the former to align with the other formers.

pic 1:
F-6A and F-10A clamped to F-6 and F-10, respectively, with 1/32" thick ply as spacers.
FWS-3 then glued/clamped to the formers.
The front end of FWS-3 contacts FWS-2 and the back end has a 1 1/8" space between the two pieces.

pic 2:
the kit came with sixteen 1/8" thick by 4' long balsa sheets and a ton of stringers.

pic 3:
The waste from the last stringer is butt glued to the next stringer and a short piece is also CA'ed on the joint, so I don't have a hundred pieces of useless short pieces of stringers at the end of the day.
As I mentioned before, I used to be called cheap; now I'm environmentally friendly!

pic 4:
I use a razor saw with no 'back stiffener' to get between the two formers to get an exact length stringer cut.

pic 5:
I cut new stringer slots in F-9: the slots were off about a 1/4" and I saw no reason to put 'undo bends' in the stringers!
I also put some pen lines on F-8 and F-9's top corners to round them over.

pic 6/7:
F-8/9's corners rounded over.
I also so no reason to burden myself trying to bend balsa sheeting around a sharp corner!
A detail sander made quick work of the corners and lowering one side of F-9 to align with the other formers.

pic 8:
Acid brush works nice to remove/add carpenters glue in those hard to reach areas.

pic 9/10:
These small builders clamps come in real handy to clamp things in tight spaces where there is no 'close' place to put the other end of the clamp (as in holding a stringer under tension as you can't use pins because all the surrounding surfaces are ply).

pic 11:
A cut off wheel was needed to enlarge some of the slots on the formers so the stringers would fit.
All stringers were made flush to the former contours to insure a good bond when sheeting.