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Hudson Flier Project

Old 02-22-2009, 12:47 PM
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Chevelle
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Default Hudson Flier Project

Hello.

I am involved in a very special project and am considering using your RCV120SP. I am working with the Glenn Curtiss Museum in Hammonsport, NY in the design and construction of a full scale replica of the 1910 Hudson Flier. On May 29, 1910, this plane flew what was then the long distance record of 150 miles from Albany to New York City with one refueling stop. In November of that year, it was the first plane to take off from the deck of a ship. The replica is under construction and will fly this summer. We intend to reenact the Albany to New York flight on May 29, 2010, the 100th anniversary of the original flight.

I am in the process of converting my full scale design to 1/4 scale. I hope to have an R/C version ready for the reenactment celebration. (With a year and a half to go, I am already anxious about finishing on time!) Your engine seems to be a good candidate. It fits well and has a small profile which will make adding a faux OX-5 easier.

For reference, the first picture is of the full scale design. The rest are the R/C version. (It is incomplete. I have not finished the rear empennage yet.) I do have questions...

1. As shown in the pictures, it is a pusher and I have rotated the engine 90° so the starter capscrew is out the side and the carb is on top. Are there any issues with mounting the engine this way?

2. With the carb facing the front of the plane, are there any issues with air being feed right into the carb when the plane is in motion?

3. Are there any other muffler options? The stock muffler will just spew exhaust right on the bottom wing. Is there a canister type that can have a rear mounting exit? If I have to design a customer muffler, what are the specifics for this engine that I need to know?

3. How critical is the centerline of the fuel tank? If I use a cylindrical tank above the engine, will that be a problem?

If you have other information that I need to know regarding this application, I would appreciate it.

Cheers.

Bob
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:13 AM
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ktcanuck
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Since I haven't decided how to orient my 120 in the Bonanza I would be interested in answers as well.

Is no one able to answer?
Old 03-04-2009, 05:37 PM
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andi3142001
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Since nobody else does it, I will give it a try

1) I would not expect any troubles in rotating the engine 90°.
2) Guess that will work. Other 4-Strokes have their carbs orientated in any direction and they work fine.
3) OS mufflers will fit. Guess the 120 has the same thread as the OS90. There is some info about that on the RCV homepage.
If you build your own - make the exhaust duct as long or longer than the original one. The muffler itself as big or bigger than the one provided and you should be fine.
4) That will be an issue on all glow engines. The middle of the tank should be at the height of the needle. However, there are devices who regulate the fuel pressure for such cases (pumps etc.). But to make this work you need to experiment with your particular situation.
I recommend, whenever possible, to bring the tank to the correct height.

All our single piston engines vibrate. Since the structure on your pics look rather fragile (by the way: great plane [8D]) make sure it will withstand the hammering.

regards

Andi
Old 03-04-2009, 09:57 PM
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Thanks for that information. From those answers the RCV120SP still seems to be something worth considering in this application. Is there any other information that you feel that I should know about for this project?
Old 03-05-2009, 07:10 AM
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keithlawes
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Hi Chevelle

My name is Keith Lawes, I'm technical director at RCV. I'm afraid I would strongly recommend that you do NOT fit a 120SP into this model. Its very lightly constructed, and whilst the 120SP is a good motor, it does have double the torque pulses of a normal engine due to the 2:1 gearing on the prop. This is not a problem on a conventional model with a nice solidly built monocoque fuselage bolted to a set of wings to absorb the torque pulse, but on your model think it could be a major hassle.

In fact I think with any single, your model would shake itself around a lot. To be honest I think you will have to expand your budget a little and buy a boxer twin. This will have smaller torque pulses and little or no mechanical vibration. These early planes always had balanced engines (typically a 4, even on the Wright brothers) as their very flimsy structures were not up to dealing with the vibration from the more widely available singles.

Sorry to loose a sale but would hate to see such an interesting project have any avoidable problems, as with all new model there will be enough unavoidable ones!!!

Regards

Keith
Old 03-05-2009, 08:19 AM
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andi3142001
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Such straightforwardness is highly appreciated! [sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Chevelle, what about electric power? It would allow to keep the structure scale.

regards
Andi
Old 03-06-2009, 07:42 AM
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Keith,

I greatly appreciate your honest evaluation of the suitability of your motor in this project. You make very excellent points. It may very well be that the RCV engine will cause too much vibration but I should point out that the pictures provided were missing a lot of additional support. Below are pictures of the full scale design. (You were quite correct about multi-cylinder balanced engines used back then. The original Hudson Flier used an OX-5, a 70hp 8 cylinder motor. Our full scale replica will also use an OX-5.)

I will definitely look into multi-cylinder engines. The challenge will be to find the right one the right size. So far, the plane looks to surprisingly light. I'm not sure it will come up to 9 lbs. Very light for a biplane with 8' wings. A two cylinder glow engine (ugh) maybe the way to go.

This can certainly be an electric. That solves a lot of problems but to be honest, the experience will lose something if this plane just whines itself into the air and swishes around the field in a few circuits. In the end, we may have to go this way but I would rather not.

Chevelle
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Old 03-09-2009, 05:53 AM
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keithlawes
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Hi Chevelle

So with that weight and huge area you can probably get away with a 90. Think a 90 boxer twin would be ideal, shame we dont do one!

There is an original Curtis (I think) Biplane hanging from the ceiling at Albuquerque airport. Fantastic original condition, and it has a big multi engine in it, cant remember if its a V8 or straight 6. But its amazing to see this huge engine suspended in the middle of this flimsy structure, with the pilots seat right in front of the 1/2 ton cast iron block of the engine!! Would hate to run into anything in one!

The very best with the project

Keith
Old 03-12-2009, 08:15 PM
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

People used to fly quarter scale Cubs and such with .60s. So yes, I would think the 1.20 would be much more than necessary on a 1/4 scale Curtiss.

I saw your "Triad" fly a few years ago and came to see the "America" which did not fly when I was there. You guys are doing amazing things! Jim
Old 03-12-2009, 08:45 PM
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Buzz,

Thanks for the supportive words. This project is an amazing experience for me. Just the thought of recreating such a rare part of aviation history and having it make such a long flight in 2010 makes the original feat all the more impressive.

We have been doing some alternative planning for the 1/4 scale plane. I've looked at horizontal twins but honestly, the RCV90SP looks to be a better match. (The 120 would definitely be too strong.) I have already mocked that up in the design and it certainly fits better. We have an interesting isolation mount design that should make a huge difference in managing vibration. Although the final choice has not been made yet, an RCV engine is still in the running. What would be ideal is to have the ability to test one before making the final decision but buy engines for testing gets pretty expensive. Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone that is willing to lend me one.

I will be at the museum tomorrow morning in the restoration shop going over some drawings details with the shop folks. It would be a pleasure to meet anyone that cared to stop by.

Salute!
Old 03-12-2009, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: Hudson Flier Project

Hi Chevelle, I've been to the Curtiss museum many times and always loved looking in on the workshop. It will be awhile before I get down there again, but I will drop you a line next time I do in case you happen to be around that day. Thanks - it would be great to see the work going on there.

I have an RCV 60 SP that I bought with the idea of swinging a scale size prop on a WWI era plane, but in my current job I have a long commute and it doesn't leave me with the time for the projects I keep dreaming up! But retirement is only a couple of years off, and then things will change. I'd like to do a 1/6 model of a Thomas Morse MB-3 prototype, which of course was originally built and flown right here in Ithaca.

Jim

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