Notices
S.P.A.D. Aircraft - Coroplast design Discuss the growing area of S.P.A.D.S. (Simple Plastic Airplane Designs). Coroplast type aircraft, pizza box planes, etc..

New Twin Tail

Old 12-08-2009, 10:06 AM
  #26  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

the cutting board is an old one from the kitchen Its the only one that I have found that works well.Its about 3/8 thick. concidering the amount of nose jobs this has had landing, Its got every right to break
Old 12-08-2009, 03:45 PM
  #27  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
Looks like you have the size I'm used to. Mine measures 7/16" thick. I always look for the word POLY before I make a purchase. Others have suggested that if it is not POLY, it may break more easily.
Old 01-03-2010, 10:23 AM
  #28  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Had a few flights with this bird, Shortend the UC as the nose over were P***ING me off. Now I have prop stikes[:@] looks more like a Vampire Jet.
2 dead sticks today, 1 in to the salt mud...Still having a lot of problems with rudder flutter to the point it breaking the support wires on the rudder..Yes I know back off but its no fun...[>:]
We're having a lot of strong winds at the moment. this Bird dosnt flinch at it..
Old 01-17-2010, 04:11 AM
  #29  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Still having a lot of problems with rudder flutter. keeps breaking the support wires. total AUW 3.8kgs.

rolls like there is no tomorrow, and still bends the front UC at landing..Have just got some more piano wire for a new type of UC..

What sort of winds do you fly it in? 2 weeks ago it was gusting to 35kts. A few old vids of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaSWhraK7fU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL36kor8bu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuRkShWwYQE
Old 01-17-2010, 09:27 AM
  #30  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
Good to hear from you again. If the winds will not move me while standing I will fly. Probably around 30MPH. Gusts can be terrible. I want to help you with your rudder flutter problem but first I must understand your situation better.You state the wires to the rudder break. Can I assume you mean the wires to the vertical stabilizer break? The rudders cannot have wires since they must move right/left. If your vertical stabs and rudders have more area than needed, then fluttering may occur. Since you do not have twin engines you do not needed the extra vertical stability needed when one engine stops. My vertical stabs with rudders are very small now. I never have flutter now and do not use flying wires to the stabs. I use 2 bamboos round sticks vertically thru the 4MM coroplast the complete height of the vertical stabs. I put pop rivets very close to the bamboo and into the 3/4 inch aluminum angle that serve as booms and support the horizontal stabilizer. The vertical stabs are very rigid. If you post close up photos of the tail of your plane I will gladly study them and maybe see something you are missing. Frankly, I do not understand how your wires are being attached and are breaking. My tail is as stiff as a rock. Let's work on this together. Just thought of something else: Are you using pull-pull wires to operate the two rudders?
Old 01-17-2010, 10:04 AM
  #31  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi Villa. the Vert Stabs have CF rods down the flutes next to the screws. the wires are swaged and wound and they still pull apart or break as if there is so much load on them..It has great rudder auth. Im only using a single snake for the rudder.

Ill get some pics tomorrow as its now late here.
Old 01-17-2010, 04:26 PM
  #32  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
Three things I just noticed. First: It is common to cut of the rear corners off the elevator (and also the ailerons) at a 45 degree to reduce flutter. This is recommended in many places. Second: If you look at the side view of your horizontal stabilizer you will see that it actually comes to a point at the top (visually remove the rudder). This means there is little "meat" up there providing support to the rudder. I would move the top point forward about 1.5 inches, then have a carbon rod at the forward point and near the rudder hinge. Third: I would trim the top rear of the rudder at a 45 degree angle, again to reduce flutter. I think I already mentioned that your vertical stabilizer area with rudder may be a little too large. The smaller the stronger against flutter. I still cannot envision how the flying wires you keep breaking are connected. There is nothing to the left/right to make a balanced symmetrical connection. I frequently get blind sided and cannot understand the simplest thing. I wonder if you have introduced a violent spring supported/induced self generation violent vibration. That is a mouth full and I hope no one asks for an explanation. A photo would help.
Old 01-18-2010, 08:59 AM
  #33  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Ok some pics.

The Vert stab is 8" H and 9" in length.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	nl28774.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	1.20 MB
ID:	1358862   Click image for larger version

Name:	rm37873.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	1.23 MB
ID:	1358863   Click image for larger version

Name:	lq36815.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	1.20 MB
ID:	1358864  
Old 01-18-2010, 02:55 PM
  #34  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
Just as I suspected. You have a "I wonder if you have introduced a violent spring supported/induced self generation violent vibration. That is a mouth full and I hope no one asks for an explanation". I'm only guessing here so please bear with me. Your flying wires may be self destructing and I suggest removing them. If they were attached at the horizontal stab to a carbon fiber rod, and were made of something like a 4-40 steel rod or a strong carbon rod, it might be better. Your plane is much larger than mine and this may be causing me to see things wrong so take what I state with a grain of salt. I don't feel like doing the calculations, but I will if you are not comfortable doing them. My attention span is very short now and this causes me problems at these sites at other times with other people. The total area of your vertical stabs seem to be larger than needed. I can direct you to sketches, formulas, and ratios that give good results. Just ask. I can also give you the areas on my plane. The ratio of areas for your plane can be the same as on my plane. If this is difficult for you to understand please don't let that stop you from asking. Moving the vertical stab down at least one inch will give it more support to the aluminum angle, plus give less overhang at the top, making it stronger. The vertical stab, the horizontal stab, and the aluminum angle must act as an assembly that is mutually supporting. Together they are very strong but separately they are very weak. A few more pop rivets or screws here and there can do miracles. I look at it as a uni-body construction as seen on modern cars that have no frame. My other post also suggested your vertical stab has another weakness. Please read it. Good luck.
Old 01-18-2010, 06:35 PM
  #35  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Thanks Villa.

The wires were fitted after the 1st flight.
The horizontal stab has 4 CF rods in it.
I have orderd some smaller piano wire. there is some twisting flex in the alloy booms.
If you can send me the links for the maths Ill have a look.

thanks
Old 01-18-2010, 07:22 PM
  #36  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
Here is what I have used:
General Rules for airplane design.

General formulas for fuse and tail feathers:

Fuse length 60-70% of the wing span

Aileron Area: 12.5 -25% of the wing area.

Vert stab area 9-10% of the wing area

Hor. stab area 18-20% of the wing area.

Elevator area: 25-50% of the horizontal stab area

Rudder area: 25-50% of the vertical stab area.

See also http://spadworld.net/forum/links.php and

http://adamone.rchomepage.com/design.htm

Go to http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/cg_super_calc.htm and look at the 9 measurements needed to fill in that first lightpurple block. Fill in those 9 and then choose a static margin number. Click the "refresh" button and Taa Daa!!! You'll have a better answer than any WAG "conventional wisdom" sound byte that "everyone knows". Do a static margin of 10% and then one of 15% and you'll have a sensible CG range spelled out for you. Want to know how far back you can move the CG and still have control? Input 5% for the SM. I have another one I will send in a minute or so.
Old 01-18-2010, 07:37 PM
  #37  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
Here is my second offering. I noticed that over the years I have added my own notes and I don't know which is original so I am not deleting anything. It was not my intent to distribute it or take credit for it. I hope I am not violating some rules. I have done that lately and may be on poor terms with some people.

Ideal wing thickness is 12% of total chord w/ailerons.
See also http://adamone.rchomepage.com/design.htm
How to design your own Spad by ChrisSpad
So you want to design your own Spad? Well, you've come to the right place, after designing and building approximately 100 different spads, i've come up with a set of formulas to design a plane that'll fly well, every time, regardless of the size or weight of the plane.
First, we need to understand a few factors about how a plane flies.
1. Wing loading, airspeed, and its effects
2. Thrust and drag.
3. Aspect Ratio and its effects
4. Control surface size and placement

1. Wing loading, airspeed, and its Effects
Wing loading is the ratio of the weight of the plane in ounces, to the area of the wing in square feet. For simplicity, from this point on, wing loading will be referred to only in ounces, not in oz/ft^2. When i say the wing loading is 12 oz, i mean the wing loading is 12 oz/ft^2.
That sounds fairly simple, and for the most part it is, however, its effects need to be
understood. The smaller a plane is, the lighter the wing loading needs to be. Here's a general idea of the wing loadings that i shoot for, for a specific wing size:

Wing area (square inches) Wing Loading (oz/ft^2) Plane weight@wing loading:
200 12 17 oz
400 16 45 oz
600 18 75 oz
800 20 111 oz
1000 23 160 oz
Lets talk a little about wing stall speed, and how it relates to wing loading. The higher the wing loading, the higher the stall speed. In general, the stall speed in miles per hour can be estimated by multiplying the square root of the wing loading in oz by 3.77. I am told this is quite accurate, but, i've not tried to verify it with a radar gun. But, while the stall speed is important, there are other factors involved. The chart above will yeild planes of varying sizes that fly like they are equally loaded. Even though the small one will stall at a considerably slower speed than the largest one of the group, they'll all feel like the stall at about the same rate, due to the difference in size. If you want to know more about this phenomenon, you can do a yahoo, google, or spadworld search for cubic wing loading.
The other factor that wing loading has an effect on is the tendency to tip stall. A heavily
loaded plane will tend to stall one side of the wing before the other, especially at low speeds,
like when landing. Many heavily loaded planes can't be fully stalled and landed, they must be landed slightly above stall speed to prevent tip stalls.

2. Thrust and drag:
Thrust is what the engine produces, it pushes (or pulls) the plane forward in the air. Drag is the resistance to pulling the plane forward caused by the airframe itself. For the time being, thats enough to say about thrust and drag, besides that some planes are draggier than others, large aspect ratio produce less drag than low aspect ratios, but, more on that later.

3. Aspect Ratios and its effects:
Aspect ratio is the ratio of the wingspan, to the wing chord. A 60" span, 10" chord wing has an aspect ratio of 6. (or 6:1). The longer the aspect ratio, the better the glide slope. This doesn't mean that it stalls at a slower speed, only that it floats farther forward in losing the same amount of altitude, compared to a lower aspect ratio wing. This is a factor in designs, for several reasons, but, it’s even more important in gliders than in powered craft. The other effect of aspect ratio is how it effects the plane's roll rate. The higher the aspect ratio, the slower the roll rate.

Here's a general listing of the aspect ratios that are generally used for different planes:
Aspect ratio Application
>3 Funflys, and other special application planes, with very fast roll rates
3-4 Combat planes, and some sport planes
4-5 Sport planes
5-6 Trainers
>6 Gliders


4. Control surface size and placement
The size and placement of the tailfeathers of a plane play a large part in what it can, and can't do, huge surfaces make good 3d planes, and small ones make trainers. Sport planes fall somewhere in the middle. The control surfaces act like the feathers on an arrow, they deflect air, and keep the tail pointed back, and the nose ahead. In all actuality, they vector the thrust of the air moving over them. If the elevator is raised, the airflow pushing off of the raised elevator pushes the tail of the plane down, and the nose up. The shorter the ratio of the chord to the control surface placement, the larger the stabilizers will need to be. The larger the ratio, the smaller they can be. For the formula's that i use, tail feather placement is taken into account in the fuse length, and their size needn't be pondered, however, the size of the control surface will be. More on that as i go through how i generally design a plane.

First, you need to decide what you want the plane to do. Do you want a trainer, a funfly, sport plane, or something in between?
For purpose of example, lets say its going to be a sport plane, and a relatively sporty one at that.
First, you need to decide the aspect ratio of the plane. For a sport plane, lets go with 3.75:1, or thereabouts.
Next, you need to look at the engine you have available, if you are planning to build with a fixed engine. We need to know what the engine is capable of. Now, find the manufacturer's horsepower numbers, and throw them out the window, for our purposes, they are useless, and as often as not, totally inaccurate. While you've got the manufacturer's specs in front of you, go ahead and toss out their specific prop recommendations as well. (more on this later).
Now, you've got engine X, lets say for example, its an OS 46 fx. We know what it weighs from the manufacturer's specs, or from our scale, about 17 oz with muffler.
So, now, if you have run this engine before, and know the rpm that it will turn with a specific prop, you're a step ahead of the game, if not, go here: www.rcfaq.com and find this engine.
There'll more likely than not be several entries for it, with different props. For the sake of
accuracy, toss out the high and low readings with a specific prop. An 11x5 is a good prop for that engine for our purposes. After you find a good median rpm that you can expect from your engine, take that number and plug it into thrusthp. 11x5 apc prop, turning at 13,000 rpm. It'll give you the thrust that the engine will put out in
lbs. However, experience has taught me that its way generous in its results. To get an actual accurate output, multiply what it says by .7. That is your adjusted engine thrust. If you want to have unlimited vertical, you need the plane to weigh absolutely no more than this number. If you want to hover, and pull out, you'll need more thrust than weight. The amount of excess thrust will determine its pullout authority.

So, with an 11x5 apc prop, the os 46 fx should turn around 13,000 rpm. According to thrust hp, thats 7.42 lbs of thrust. Multiply that by .7 that gives about 5.2 lbs of thrust. Doesn't sound like alot, but, the 11x5 isn't a thrust prop. An 11.5x4 will spin about the same rpm, and produces closer to 6.2 lbs of thrust. Depending on your application, you can figure a roundabout of say 6 lbs as a max weight. At that weight, you'll do good to hover with the 11.5x4, but, with the 11x5, it'll make a great sport plane. Ok, so, we've figured out that our plane needs to weigh no more than about 6 lbs, with the 46 fx,
for excellent sport plane qualities. Now, onto the tricky part. We want to figure out what size wing we need to have to keep the plane in the desired wing loading range. If you look at the chart above, 92 oz is in between 600 and 800" of wing. So, we we'll use 700" as a base, with an aspect ratio of 3.75.
For round numbers, a 14" chord wing, with a span of 5o" gives an aspect ratio of 3.57:1, and an area of 700". Thats close enough for our intentions.

Now that we know the span, and chord, and wing area, we can design the fuselage, and tail feathers.

General formulas for fuse and tail feathers:

Fuse length 60-70% of the wing span

Aileron Area: 12.5 -25% of the wing area.

Vert stab area 9-10% of the wing area

Hor. stab area 18-20% of the wing area.

Elevator area: 25-50% of the horizontal stab area

Rudder area: 25-50% of the vertical stab area.

Spar height: 10-18% of the wing chord. 10% yeilds a very fast wing, 18% yeilds a very high drag wing. Normal is about 12%.

Since our aspect ratio is on the low side, meaning we have a wide wing chord, we'll use the uppermost end of the fuse length, or 70% of the the wingspan: 70% of 50" is 35", which is the length we'll cut our fuse, note this doesn't include the motor hanging off the front, or the stabs hanging off the rear.

So, for our 700" wing, We'll taper the ailerons, in true spad style, like the Dogfighter. Lets make the ailerons 4" at the root, and 1" at the tip. that gives us an average aileron size of 2.5". 2.5x50 is 125" of aileron area, or about 18% of the wing area, which is right in the middle of the size. We want our wing chord to average 14", so, that makes the bottom wing skin 11.5" wide. We figure spar placement at 28% of the chord of the wing (including the ailerons), or about 3 7/8" from the leading edge. Spar height should be about 10-12% of the chord, including the ailerons. 1 1/2" height would work well here, a yardstick height will work as well, but will make the plane considerably faster, with a slightly higher stall speed. You now have all the info required to build the wing.

So, we are now down to the tailfeathers, using the formulas above, the horizontal stab should have a total area of 126-140"^2. For a 3d plane, you'd want to use largest elevator possible, for our purposes of a hot sport plane, we'll lean more towards the small side. Say 35% of that area, so, the elevator should have about 44-49" of area. Now you know what the areas should be, its a matter of keeping the span as short as is feasible. Generally, with 4 mil coro, without alot of bracing, 18" is about as wide as you want to go for the span. If i were to build it rectangular, using an 18" chord, i'd need a chord of 7". For the elevator to have somewhere between 44-49" of area, with an 18" span, that'd make the elevator somewhere around 2 1/2".
You can shape the hor. stab and elevator almost any way you'd like, but, you need to keep the areas the right size, and not make the span so long that it flops. Like i said, 18" is as much as i like to go with a single piece of 4 mil. If you go bigger, plan to brace the tail with struts or flying wires, or suffer a locking elevator, due to flex.

The Vert. stab is done the same way. Its area shold be between 63 and 70"^2. We'll use the same percentage that we used for the hor. stab, 35%. That gives us a rudder area of betwen 22 and 24"^2. 9" is about as high as you can go for a vert. stab without reinforcement. So, at 9% of the wing area, thats a 7" chord, and a 9" span. For the rudder to be properly sized, it should work out to be 2 1/2" chord as well. (run the numbers, you'll see).

There you have the formulas to design the actual plane. If you've done all this, you should now be able to determine exactly how much coroplast, of what size you'll need. From that, you can determine the weight of the coroplast.
Old 01-19-2010, 10:50 AM
  #38  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
I just measured one of my two vertical stabilizers(vertical stabilizer with rudder) and it is 5-3/4" high and 6" long, and shaped as you can see in the photos. The earlier photos show the stab/rudder larger. I later made them smaller because the plane could not do a respectable hammerhead stall. The area of one stab with rudder is 26 square inches. My wing chord, including ailerons, is 13 inches and the span is 48 inches. I don't remember what the area ratios work out to as compared to the suggestions made in the information I gave you. Remember that nothing is absolute and everything ends up being a compromise. Use common sense and try to have a reasonable reason for everything. Let me know what your ratios work out to, but please give me the whole story so I don't have to look things up. I have put in my time and hate to dig things up anymore. I chuckle when I learn that most young people have no idea of the why or what I'm talking about, but I don't care. If you let me rant a little, I will help you. Just ask.
Old 01-25-2010, 06:03 AM
  #39  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi Villa. The twin is still going strong, With the storms and Cyclone we are getting lately flying is out..I just wanted another plane for the 91. The Rudder is being down scaled and the UC nose is being redesigned.
Old 02-02-2010, 04:03 PM
  #40  
ndb8fxe
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Could you use two rudder servos and eliminate the crossbar? I used two rudder on a twinboom small .049 twin engine plane. I think it will help with some of the problems you are having.
Old 02-07-2010, 05:18 AM
  #41  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Sent the big bird up for a flight with its rudder clipped today..Did a few high speed dives and had no flutter...Thanks Villa.

Fried the glow plugs again. 3 planes today and all fried the plug. Using a different fuel, sure the engine was rich enough. Have to see whats going on, as Ive never ad this type of problem before. Another pilot flying an SPAD extra same prob same fuel.
Oh smashed a new bird today MIG3, 1st Li-Po fire ive seen, 4 cell 3A.
Old 02-07-2010, 11:06 AM
  #42  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Hi jaav
It sure is great when a plan works OK.
Old 02-27-2010, 09:28 AM
  #43  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Just did a check over on the Bird today and found cracks in the corro around the out side of the internal frame. Must have a bit of flex..Did push her real hard last week..
Son flying it tomorrow..
Old 02-28-2010, 04:54 AM
  #44  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Droped her today WOT nose in!

Did the pre flghts check all ok.. Took off did one circut and notice it was slow and eratic out of the roll leveled her out, then she droped the nose at height couldnt kill the motor or controll any thing. just had to watch a big cloud of dust.....

It didnt look too bad from a distance she was on its UC, got closer and saw the wing was in a swept wing config. The motor pod was pushed back into the wing..The main structure inside the wing is shattered... Didnt even brake the poly mount...

Cause! bloody external power switch.. it was "off" when I got to her, tested the switch but striking the wing and it moved off....Was in a bad place from the start, Top of the wing and engine oil.

She'll be back...

Also dropped the BH Tornado after rebuilding the tail yesterday due to a RX problem...(Salt is a killer).
Was doing a few hard low left and right banks and got too close behind the trees in to the still air then watched her stall the wings, Not good. Bin job.
Old 02-28-2010, 08:04 AM
  #45  
jaav
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Broome, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Todays pic.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	wu61585.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	1.20 MB
ID:	1388423   Click image for larger version

Name:	up48249.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	1.22 MB
ID:	1388424   Click image for larger version

Name:	ag91127.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	1.13 MB
ID:	1388425   Click image for larger version

Name:	wp40795.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	1.24 MB
ID:	1388426   Click image for larger version

Name:	al71274.jpg
Views:	32
Size:	1.05 MB
ID:	1388427  
Old 02-28-2010, 12:25 PM
  #46  
PatrickCurry
My Feedback: (20)
 
PatrickCurry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: LaGrange, GA
Posts: 544
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: New Twin Tail

Sorry about your birds there Jaav.  Onward and upward.  :-)

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.