Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

The fuselage behind the Wingman II is from a P-51D Mustang G.S. ( S4 - Yellow ) A100S4 on the P-51 Mustang G.S. page.

People have run Moki 2.1 engines in these, but I'm going a bit different. I'm going to try a gasser and go with the O.S. GT33 Gasoline engine. The weight should be about right. Might need a little tail weight, but I may put dual elevator servos in the tail. Haven't measured the firewall yet, so I don't know for sure it it will fit. The engine comes with a muffler. If it works out, it might be a lot of fun.

I'm looking for people experienced with the World Models A100S line of G.S. (Giant Scale) P-51 planes. I've seen threads occasionally mention 2 stroke engines in them. But that was a while ago..

So any input is appreciated. Pictures of installations, anything is helpful. Retract advice, etc.

One thing they did change from the old model to the new model is the elevator system. The older model used a pull-pull affair where as the pull one doesn't. If you have done the dual elevator servo thing at the rear, I would be especially interested in seeing pictures of that, and knowing how it works out..

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

I actually have two of the Mustangs to work with. The Miss America is the latest production model. It has some changes and looks even better. The wing fillets are nice and are made of fiberglass. The canopy looks different. May just be optical but I think it is shaped better. The new models come in two boxes for easier shipping. They also don't use the pull-pull elevator system.

The Miss America looks sharp. It won't get a custom color scheme.

I'm going to give the yellow one a custom color scheme. One of my usual gaudy things. Or maybe I'll try to do something classy for a change. Maybe copy a Lyle design. It won't be a boring scale design though. It will be more of Q40 type of racing scheme.

In terms of engines, if someone has tried the [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXZZH1&P=M]DLE Engines DLE-30cc Gas Engine Rear Carburetor[/link] or the [link=http://www.cermark.com/products/MLD-35cc-Gasoline-Engine-%252d-MLD%252d35.html]MLD 35cc Gasoline Engine - MLD-35[/link] in one of these planes, I would be especially interested in your experiences.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

It will fly just fine with the OS 33 but if you want more speed you should rung a DLE 55 or even the EVO 58 for around 130MPH

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

I took the time to take a few pictures and measure the space this morning. With the cowl as far out as it seems feasible, the distance from the firewall to the spinner ring is 6.5" that opens up a lot of possibilities without having to do significant firewall mods.

Even though tail weight would be required my original thought for powering this plane was the [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXYNR4&P=ML]O.S. GT55 Gasoline[/link] ... I like the front mounted carb form factor and with the tighter firewall, this might be a choice for some "get up and go".

But that [link=http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/items/DL55ENGINE.html]DLE Engines DLE-55 55cc RC Model Gas Engine with Muffler and Electronic Ignition[/link] might be the ticket as well. I've heard it runs well.

This plane is not quite legal for the USRA class at [link=http://usrainfo.org/wbird.htm]USRA Provisional Class: WARBIRD[/link] as the wing are is 45 sq in too small at 1155 and they require 1200. But that is a PROVISIONAL class and in my opinion changes can be made to a provisional class or a new class can be created.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

This afternoon I took the wing and tail out of the plastic and stuck the yellow P-51 together. It's pretty big, but not so big that transportation is any worse than any other large scale plane.

it is pictured with my P-51 EP also from TWM. Min was one of the originals and I converted the brushed motor to an outrunner and put a reno style canopy from a Voodoo on it. They are available from AirBorne or at least they used to be. The [link=http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=2440]P-51 Mustang - EP ( Brushless) Yellow (E194BY)[/link] now comes with a brushless outrunner motor.

The big question about the big one is the engine.

The other big question is the color scheme. I don't go for all yellow airplanes. I like orange and blue on yellow and I like red sunburst on yellow. And obviously I like the red with red/white checkerboard, mainly because I can see it easily and it is easy to do. But for a big plane, I have the time to go fancy. I know fancy color schemes on P-51 planes are not very scale, but I'm going for racy looks. The Miss America sure looks racy.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

James Barr of Liberty South Carolina came to visit me today and we spent time bench running the OS 25 brushless motor for www.ClubWingman.com and looking at the Wingman II.

We also spent a significant amount of time looking at the TWM P-51 GS kits. We found that the newer Miss America has the mounts in place for the dual elevator servo as an option to the pull-pull system.

We talked about engines and in the process I pulled out the aluminum spinner that came with the yellow Rockwell kit. James noted that it weighed almost a pound. I put it on the scale and it was 15.1 ounces. So I got the spinner out of the Miss America kit and it is a plastic spinner with an aluminum backplate. It was 9.7 ounces.

After he left I decided to take some pictures and post them. I realized that there was extra stuff inside them. There was an extra collet and extra hub rings in them. So I took out the extra parts and used just the largest of the collets, weighed, and photographed them.

The difference of 5 ounces would be significant in affecting the balance. The question is are plastic spinners up to 9000+ rpm on a gas engine?

I can't upload photos now. Maybe I've reached my limit.

(edited to add photos)

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

you can also drill holes in the back plate the rebalance it. can take a bunch of weight out.

I maybe have to get one of these real soon.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Your not going to get 9,000 RPM out of a gasser. 7,000 to 7,200 is more ralistic. Anything past that is out of the power band for a muffled gasser.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Thanks for the tip. I'm from the small plane arena and didn't even think about that.

I did find out that only some of the Rockwell kits have the aluminum backplates. And I found out that the factory has a good supply of Rockwells. The Rockwells are the slightly older model. But the only differences are that they don't have the backing mounts for the dual elevator servos and they don't have the wing fillets.

[link=http://www.rcpro.org]RCPRO[/link] is probably going to create a one airframe racing class based on the [link=http://www.airborne-models.com/html/productdetails.asp?ProductID=21]P-51 Mustang G.S.[/link]. Multiple RCPRO Board members are already getting the planes and engines. We are going to limit the engines to 38cc for a number of reasons. There are a whole range of engines that will fit right in and balance reasonably well. They will not overstress the airframe. I will be publishing a list.

If you are on Facebook, please go to [link=http://www.facebook.com/pages/RCPROorg/223516891052909]RCPRO.org[/link] and check out our photo galleries. More to come. And if you have some we'll get them up. May even create a page just for RC Warbird Racing.

What do you think?

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

I created a Facebook page at RC Warbird Racing for ALL R/C Warbird racing. Not just RCPRO Warbird Racing. I included the link for [link]http://www.rcpylonracing.com/[/link] and anyone is welcome to send me links to add. If you want to be a Admin so you can upload photo galleries, contact me. Unfortunately you have to be an Admin to do a photo gallery, but you can post photos all day long.

I'm on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/don.stegall

I will post a link back to this forum so that people who find the Facebook page can find this forum.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Here are a couple of pictures of the Rockwell and Miss America.

You can view more detailed pictures of the [link=http://www.abmshowcase.com/the_world_models/scale/p51gs/models/rockwell/photos/default.aspx]P-51 Mustang G.S. - Rockwell Kit Pictures[/link] and [link=http://www.abmshowcase.com/the_world_models/scale/p51gs/models/miss_america/photos/default.aspx]Miss America G.S. - Kit Pictures[/link] on a site I'm doing that features models from The World Models and The Wings Maker. It's not finished yet, but these pictures are done and if you have an interest in the P-51 Mustang G.S. you may find them interesting.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Hi Don,

You can get 9000rpm out of a gasser. During the giant scale racing at Madera we would turn about 8800 on the ground with our Quadra 75 rss with just 9" straight pipe. We estimated it was unloading to about 10 k in the air. With a big single pumping out that fast, vibration was a problem and we were constantly watching for loose bolts, stressed servos, and just about anything you can imagine due to the vibration of the engine.

We had experimented with soft mounts but we found we lost rpm when the engine was mounted that way. So its was a trade off between vibration and all out speed. In racing, speed is god.

Carlos G.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Carlos, if I'm not mistaken Don is setting this up for a new class of racing that is going to allow up to 35cc stock, gasoline burningengines. He listed a few earlier in this thread, most reed inducted. Not really a fair comparison to the modified, port inducted alcohol burners you guys were running at Madera. 9,000 RPMs with the engines listed just isn't going to happen.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Hi Don, Speed,

All I can say is read the rules...

The Quadra/Aerrow was indeed a gasoline engine and also had reed induction. The DLE 30 as advertised will turn up to 8500rpm. 9000rpm is doable with a stock engine if the engine is prepared correctly. It just depends upon how far you are willing to take it.

Some will buy several engines and select the best parts from each to build a engine as close to blue printed engine as possible.

FWIW, you cant have too many spare parts especially retracts.

Good Luck and keep us posted Don.

Carlos G.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Hi Don,

I went to the RCPRO site and looked at the rules. With the break out time as sort of a governor of the racing I guess reliability and consistancy is the name of the game rather than all out speed.

With the wing area minimum of 400sq inches and a maximum weight of 18lbs., it would seem that there would be a potential for quite a mix of aircraft in a given heat? Is wake turbulance a hazard for the smaller planes?

Looking at the pictures of some of the planes it would appear .60 to .90 size planes are the favored choice at this point.

If there was ever a race in my area I would like to see one to watch how it all works.

Best Regards,
Carlos G.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

If I was starting with a basically stock all yellow airframe then there is only one choice for paint jobs!

http://www.p51models.com/wp-content/...N335JAug78.jpg

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

I looked at this plane on the Airborne Models site and would like to know what JR/Spektrum servos you would run in a plane this size. It takes 9 servos.  I suspect 2 flap, 2 aileron, throttle, rudder, 1? 2? elevator, 2 retract<div>
</div><div> I haven't been a large plane person but am interested in this plane.</div>

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Carlos,

RCPRO Warbird Racing ([link=http://RCPROWarbirdRacing.com]RCPROWarbirdRacing.com[/link]) has been going on for quite a while. It started out as a wing area to engine displacement size thing based on SWRA racing, but with the breakout times, it evolved and the RCPRO Warbird Committee decided to remove the area to engine size table because it was too much of a hassle, and in bracket racing the goal is having your equipment work reliably, to fly well, and still be fast and consistent.

What we're working on with the P-51 is a single airframe, no airframe modifications class, with engines limited to 38cc. The engines will be gas only with no alcohol/nitro conversions. This will be pure heads up racing unless we determine there is a need to have brackets.

The spec formula has worked very well for Club 40 Racing ([link=http://Club40Racing.com]Club40Racing.com[/link]) and this might be a way to get people with an interest in large planes to try racing. Plus some of us who have been racing the smaller planes have been wanting to try the bigger planes. The goal with the class we are working on is cost containment and being able to run at many fields. Even if the speed is not real high, the fun comes in the preparation, the competition, and the community. A number of people have moved from Club 40 to AMA 424, AMA 426, and NMPRA EF1.

If you want to see some videos of Club 40 racing, you can go to [link=http://www.abmshowcase.com/the_world_models/sport/sky_raider_mach_2/video.aspx]Sky Raider Mach II - Video[/link].

I guess I need to go ahead and publish the preliminary rules. The new RCPRO content web site will be done in a week. We may change the engine size depending on performance testing though.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Here is a list of engines identified as candidates for the World Models P-51 Mustang G.S.

DLE Engines DLE-30cc Gas Engine Rear Carburetor

MLD 35cc Gasoline Engine - MLD-35

SE-32

O.S. GT33 Gasoline

PTE36R aircraft engine rear exhaust, rear carb

RCG 30cc Gas engine w/ CD-Ignition 3.9HP/2.94kw

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Carlos, after looking at a Q75 yes you are correct it is reed inducted. My mistake there. Yes originally it is set up for gasoline use but all the guys I know that flew the Giant Unilinteds ( Mike and Chris Lavara, Denny Baker, Kevin Norred just to name a few ) all ran alcohol. There were also extensive mods done as well.

Now take the example of the DLE55. This engine was designed for sport aerobatic type airplanes. We would usually prop that with a 23X8 or 24X8. These would turn around 6,800 to maybe 7,200. This is where the engine is set up to develop it's power. If one was to reduce prop load enough to get it into the 9,000 range it would be out of it's power band and the prop would be too small to have any real use on a WM Mustang. With your racing experience you should know the difference between RPM and usable power. I currently race the SAMs warbird format. I have my own scratch built Macchi 202 powered with a Rossi .61 FIRE. Now I can put on a 10X8 and reach 18,000 on the ground. With that prop the airplane is much slower then if I bolt on a 10X10 that only hits 14,000. Point being, loading the engine with the correct prop that matches the power band of the engine and drag of the airframe is much more important then getting max RPM.


So I would like to appologize to Don for getting his build thread off track and say that if we want to continue this maybe it's better done in the gas engine forum.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Hi Don

Of the engine you have listed , the PTE 36 appears to have an edge over the others, at least according to the specs. Availability of spare parts may favor a different engine though.

Dont forget the ol' Quadra 35 as an option. Maybe a little heavy but they were inexpensive and reliable. A well broken-in engine can run pretty good too. Its use may depend upon how well it fits the chosen airframe.

If you have the ear of World Models you might suggest a second model, of about the same size, not necessarily the same exact scale. Sea Fury, Bearcat, or Zero or Spitfire. They could use the same retracts in all.

Or perhaps mention a Ready to Cover versions of the P51 so racers would have more flexability choose color schemes and to inspect/reinforce the airframe prior to covering.

The Corsair would need dedicated retracts and may not be as appealing to manufacture due to the inverted gull wing.

A little variety may help the class to get going.

Just a few thoughts for your consideration.

Good Luck,

Carlos G

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Carlos,

Thanks for your interest, thinking, and input.

Things like the reed induction versus port induction will have to be specified or we will have issues. The Evo 40GX would possibly have a significant advantage over reed engines if the spec allowed 40cc engines. We are working with 38cc because there are some other engines in the 36 to 38 range that people have already that they may want to try. I have run across a number of engines in the 30 to 36 range, but I haven't bookmarked every one. I should have. I've been looking for viable sources. I do wonder about the PTE36R and some of the others.

The thing that made Club 40 work was a limited choice of airframes and engines. People knew what to buy. No researching and searching for the best or better. In the beginning we allowed the SIG Four Star 40, the SIG Mid Star 40, and the Sky Raider Mach II (SRM2). The Mid Star was a kit and the Four Star was available as a kit or ARF. Then TWM came out with the LA Racer 40 that had the same wing and horizontal tail as the SRM2 with the same moments and about the same drag profile. The SIG kits used different wings, non D-tube, and with other things in mind, we took them off the list. So only the Sky Raider Mach II and LA Racer 40 remained. This did give AirBorner Models / The World Models a monopoly of sorts, but they accommodated the needs. They added four solid colors of the Sky Raider Mach II, white, yellow, orange, red, and made some changes to the airframe in response to feedback that I and others gave to them. I pushed for the solid colors and I pushed for an ARC which was produced for a while, but the ARC did not sell real well. The ARC did eventually sell out as they are no longer available. You can turn a solid color into an ARC quickly as the solid colors come with CA hinges instead of being pre-hinged. The LA Racer came in four color schemes, but was made available in solid white and solid yellow. So there are currently 12 different color schemes to choose from for Club 40. With two airframes that have effectively the same drag profile, but with some style differences. The SRM2 has aileron torque rods. The LA Racer 40 has dual aileron servos outboard in the wing. I know that was long, but it helps to know where we came from and what we are thinking and it's 4am. ;)

I have focused on the [link=http://www.airborne-models.com/html/productdetails.asp?ProductID=21]P-51 Mustang G.S.[/link] because of P-51's being raced at Reno so much. Most people like or at least accept the P-51. The goal was to have a knowledge base about the airframe and consistency. Plus to have a choice in colors. The P-51 GS is available in 5 colors with solid yellow being one. I think if a class was formed and started working, TWM would produce a model that is not pre-hinged at the minimum with ARC a possibility. By staying focued on one airframe, any changes desired or needed are more likely.

They do have the [link=http://www.airborne-models.com/html/productdetails.asp?ProductID=55]Spitfire G.S.[/link] and the [link=http://www.airborne-models.com/html/productdetails.asp?ProductID=31]Zero G.S.[/link] in the same basic size. But if you open it up to those airframes, then should you open it up to others? I don't know. if you do, then it isn't a Spec class anymore.

As you have said on the engines, even if you have an engine list and require stock engines, people can still 'build' engines. In Club 40, the Thunder Tiger PRO 40 is the recommended and dominant engine. People do put time and effort into making their engines run the best that they can. I do. But the racing is still close and fun.

I know I have gone off-topic in my own thread. But if it helps define what I'm working on, then it helps me.

I am getting some help with this project though as some people find it interesting. The Miss America is going home with James Barr today who has already gotten the PTE36R and will be working with me on building, setup, and testing. He's already had his hands on the planes and is a great resource.

I appreciate the input here. That's why I posted the question.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Don. you may want to hop over to the pattern forum and look at the info there on the OS 33GT. One of the guys is running one and the power output looks really good.

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

I really would like to find someone that has one of the WM P-51 and could tell me what size servos they are running.<div>  <div>
<div>.</div></div></div>

RE: Experienced with the TWM P-51 GS?
 

Barry,

I talked to a local guy who had the Hitec HS-625MG High Speed 2BB Metal Gear Servo in a Zero G.S. that is about the same size and liked them. He used the SuperTigre G-2300 Dual BB Ringed w/Muffler in the Zero. I met him at the hobby shop the other day. He flies at a local field. I should have gotten his contact info, but I was buying one of these Ultra Micro Polecat and didn't get it.