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CL-415

Old 11-15-2010, 04:06 PM
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Default CL-415

I am one of the Co-Heads of the SPS Enders society (Aeronautics, Robotics, and Engineering) and we are going to build a cl-415. We are being very ambitious as none of us have ever built any RC planes before. So, I thought that starting a forum on it might help. I will update as the construction progresses. Some of the other members of the team might post questions in hopes of someone being willing to help a hand.
Here are some of the characteristics of the plane:
Amphibious: However, not just land and water, but snow too
Has a task: This plane will be able pick up a hockey puck of the frozen pond. This will be autonomously
Those are the only things that make it different from any other CL-415. We have plans for it. We have the plans from the June 2001 issue of Modéle Magazine. These plans are available on Aerosquare.com. However, those plans dont tell us how to waterproof it. It will be powered electrically, and flown via joystick.
We need your help! please give us some ideas, it would be greatly appreciated!
We will start construction in two weeks.
Old 11-15-2010, 08:58 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: CL-415

Picking up something solid is a more difficult task than scooping.
I'd use a differently shaped bottom for the puck.
Old 11-15-2010, 10:37 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

Tall Paul: I agree, but would a flat bottom still work as effectively in water?
Old 11-16-2010, 01:04 AM
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Default RE: CL-415

You're going to pick up a puck on the fly similar to picking up a load of water? You'll need to build the catching setup to handle an impact consistent with a full swung hammer blow

For water proofing any of the usual polyurethane varnishs or similar film finishes will do fine. The next trick is to seal all openings. Tube in tube pushrods form a good enough water resistant seal that they work fine. The wing to fuselage joint needs to either be sealed fully with weather stripping or you need to provide an inner cover that is water tight. Same with any other systems access hatches.

I hope you're going to enlist the services of a suitable pilot. These things seldom fly just like the simulators that you may be using to practice. In particular watch your weight. Each size of model has an optimum wing loading that you want to keep within or the model becomes more difficult to fly well in various conditions.

The good news that I see in your plan is that you're at least starting out with a known design that has all the structural engineering done for you. Good move on that part.
Old 11-16-2010, 08:42 AM
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Default RE: CL-415

BMAtthews:
Thanks for that advice! Would something like this work?
Old 11-16-2010, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: CL-415

I am being seriously tempted by this FPV system.
It should make things much easier for the pilot, especially when swooping to pick up the puck...

Old 11-16-2010, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

You're overthinking the issue of water proofing if you reffered to the film to use for a final layer. Boats have used marine paint for pretty much 100 years now to repel water and it works just fine. Being electric you don't need to worry about glow fuel resistance so any of the clear or colour polyurethane varnishes or paints will do just fine for water proofing of the fuselage. For the wings one of the plastic model covering films will also be fine. Just be sure to use a good 1/2 inch of overlap on the seams. Wiping off any finger oils or other contaminants along the lower overlap sealing surface with a good degreaser such as acetone or brake cleaner would also not be a bad idea to ensure the best bond of the overlapping film.

For covering a wing of your size this Microlite film will likely prove to be too weak and flexible. Such products are intended for small and light parkflyer models. For a big project such as yours stick with Monokote, Ultracote or similar full strength films.

I strongly suspect that hooking a puck off the ground will be harder than you think. On any but the calmest of days there's significant ground turbulence that bumps the models around mercilessly. It's vilotent enough and strong enough that no pilot or autopilot can fully compensate for it. Picking up a puck using a scoop of some form and velocity reduction "brake" padding will require flight path accuracy to within an inch in two axes simultaniously. This level of accuracy just isn't going to occur other than in dead calm or very low wind conditions. It won't matter if you use an FPV system or a ground based pilot flying directly at themself so they can gauge both height and course to a fine degree. Instead of scooping the puck what about a harness and aerial tow line pickup system similar to what the US developed for picking up agents and downed airmen? Such a system would keep the model up higher where even on a windy day the typical ground rolling turbulence is below the model and the pilot only needs to intersect the nose pickup arms with a line suspended between a helium balloon and the harness around the puck.

And then if a scoop is running on the ground surface it can just as easily catch in any ground roughness such as a pavement heave as it can on a puck. So I'm guessing that you'll be doing this on smooth tarmac or concrete that is checked for any discontinuities?
Old 11-16-2010, 12:34 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: CL-415

For FPV approaches, you will need something to tell the pilot where he is in relation to where he wants to be.
The Marines had a "POMOLA",, Poor Man's Optical Landing Aid", a couple of easily seen ribbons placed at the desired touchdown point, similar to the mirror landing system used on aircraft carriers.
One ribbon was many feet in front (towards the approaching aircraft) of the second, and higher, on the desired glide angle.
Lining up the two ribbons put the airplane on the desired descent path.
Expect to crash a lot!
Picking up the puck might use some kind of net.
Flat bottomed amphibians work, but aren't scale.
Old 11-16-2010, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: CL-415



First and foremost:

Get in contact with a local RC club, and see if someone there can assist you. He will be able to enusure the model is built and rigged correctly, as well as help you learn to fly. If at all possible, assemble an RC trainer kit, such as a Sig Kadet Seniorita before you build the 415. This will teach you much about flight dynamics, aircraft handeling and radio equiptment. You can also use it as a test bed for the autopilot system if needed.

Good luck,

Graeme

Old 11-16-2010, 01:49 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

POMOLA...
For this particular use, the low ribbon should be on the ground at the location of the puck.
Old 11-16-2010, 02:59 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

thanks for all the help everyone...
Bmatthews: what you said makes sense and is very intriguing
Greame: good idea, will do for sure
Tall Paul: Thanks for the diagram, very good idea and very helpful
Old 11-16-2010, 03:21 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

Greame:  What a great idea you have.  The local RC club, NH flying tigers, is full with helpful and clever ideas.  Just sent them an email, hope to hear back from them soon...
Old 11-16-2010, 05:46 PM
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Default RE: CL-415



Great to hear that you might be able to find some local help. I'm sure you'll inspire some interest in the least.
I'm really intrigued by your groups concept and ambition. The CL-415 would make an excellent model. My hometowns aviation museum has had a CL-215 as their central display for years, and CL-415's are stationed at the local airport. Better still, they have made practise water pick ups and drops in front of our house, which is amazing to see.

Happy flying!

Old 11-17-2010, 02:26 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

I think we will be using this as the controller.  Should have more info by 8:30 as we are having a meeting.
Old 11-17-2010, 08:30 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

Tall Paul:  Great idea with the POMOLA.  Any idea of a good ratio of the distances of a) the plane from the water b) the distance from the plane (where it is above the water) to the lower ribbon or c) the distance from the plane (where it is in the air) to the ribbon?
Old 11-17-2010, 08:32 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

About how much space does the CL-415 need for take off and landing?
Old 11-17-2010, 08:42 PM
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Default RE: CL-415


ORIGINAL: SPS Aeronautics

Tall Paul: Great idea with the POMOLA. Any idea of a good ratio of the distances of a) the plane from the water b) the distance from the plane (where it is above the water) to the lower ribbon or c) the distance from the plane (where it is in the air) to the ribbon?
.
The usual glide path for full scales is about 3 degrees.
Any spacing along the approach path should be appropriate, as would be the distance of the ribbons above the ground.
The low ribbon would probably best be placed close to the intended touchdown point.
It may be possible to add something like this to a flight simulator, and have your pilot get some (a lot) of practice.
Few r/c pilots use a stick like you're proposing.
That's another thing to have to learn to use.
Old 11-17-2010, 09:30 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

Off a runway, it's probably the same distance as a similarly powered land plane.
I've only seen them scoop, not takeoff or land.
Old 11-17-2010, 09:30 PM
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Default RE: CL-415



Great!  Thanks!

Old 11-18-2010, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: CL-415

SPS, a lot of your questions are now beginning to be aimed at the flying aspects. Until you see and fly a model you're not really going to get a feel for how to best proceed. I'd suggest you get out to that club you found and observe some of the flying. And since you or a member of your team will be part of the flying I'd suggest that while you're all building the one model that some of you join that club and buy a basic trainer and radio and begin with flight training. Then you'll have a far more accurate idea of what we've been suggesting here about how the models fly in different conditions. The goal may be just to pick up a puck but the path to that goal has a lot of side trips that you need to take along the way. You and your team needs to pick up on a lot of rather complex disciplines all at the same time. Flying and understanding how the air affects your model may only be one such side path but it's an important one.
Old 11-18-2010, 10:32 AM
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Default RE: CL-415


ORIGINAL: BMatthews

SPS, a lot of your questions are now beginning to be aimed at the flying aspects. Until you see and fly a model you're not really going to get a feel for how to best proceed. I'd suggest you get out to that club you found and observe some of the flying. And since you or a member of your team will be part of the flying I'd suggest that while you're all building the one model that some of you join that club and buy a basic trainer and radio and begin with flight training. Then you'll have a far more accurate idea of what we've been suggesting here about how the models fly in different conditions. The goal may be just to pick up a puck but the path to that goal has a lot of side trips that you need to take along the way. You and your team needs to pick up on a lot of rather complex disciplines all at the same time. Flying and understanding how the air affects your model may only be one such side path but it's an important one.
Bmatthews: While you are correct, there is a reason for all of this. Last night at the meeting, everyone was assigned a postion. Some of those positions included: chief pilot, chief of construction, and chief of finding asuitablearea for all of this. The reason that they are asking all of these questions, is that we need to get a proposal up to the head of science department by tomorrow with every single goal and detail touched on. In order for that to happen, we need to get as much information as possible. We have already taken the steps that you have recommended such as buying a trainer and joining the club...Either way, your advice is still greatly appreciated.

Old 11-18-2010, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

Excellent. I'm sure you'll find that the extra effort in pilot training is worthwhile. I would suggest that your own pilot may not be up to the skill level needed to fly a mission on the final model due to the accuracy of piloting that will be needed. But what experience he does gain in the initial training will prove valuable to the team's decisions in a lot of areas by bringing some practical first hand experience of the weather factors to the table during the development of the systems.

In any event your team is already way ahead by realizing that you can't do it all and by picking a known design as the airframe. It was an excellent decision that leaves you group with far more time to work on the guidance package and other factors.
Old 11-19-2010, 04:49 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

Just got my plans printed....So cool to see how the plane is going to be laid out and look!
Old 11-19-2010, 05:42 PM
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Default RE: CL-415

What is the standard assortment of balsa wood for this kind of construction?  How much of each type?
Old 11-20-2010, 10:52 AM
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Our proposal is finished!! just a matter of time until we can get cracking on the actual construction!
Here it is,
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Aeronautics Proposal<o></o>[/b]

Goal: Build a Canadair CL-415 from scratch usingpreviously made plans.  This planewill be able to land on water, ice, snow, and ground, making it ideal for everyseason.  In the end, our goal isfor the plane to autonomously pick up objects from the water or the ice.  <o></o>

<o> </o>

Members and Positions<o></o>[/b]

Jacob Ruttenberg-Head,Chief of Construction<o></o>

Colter Smith and MathildeSauquet-Chief Pilots (Mathilde has her actual pilot’s license)<o></o>

Andrew Showers-Chief ofexterior objects, I.E waterproofing, painting, and coating<o></o>

Noah Bailey-Chief ofControls: Servos, remote control, etc…<o></o>

Lucy Chase-Chief ofCommunications, Aiding Noah with electronics and Jacob with construction<o></o>

Phoebe Clark and MattJang-Chiefs of flight operations<o></o>

NaokiIchimura and Andrew Clark- Chiefsof object retrieval<o></o>

Naoki Ichimura- Chief ofGraphic design<o></o>

 <o></o>

What we have<o></o>[/b]

·     A small amountof Balsa wood<o></o>

·     Servos<o></o>

·     Tools<o></o>

·     Float material<o></o>

·     Test remote<o></o>

·     Trainer plane <o></o>

·     Plans<o></o>

<o> </o>

Material we need<o></o>[/b]

Item<o></o>

Cost ($)<o></o>

laceholder;border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">

 

FY21AP Autopilot FY606 2.4 GHz Data Radio Ground Control<o></o>

525<o></o>

laceholder;border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">

 

RC Flight Stabilization system and RTH unit<o></o>

334<o></o>

laceholder;border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">

 

AP117 OSD for FY21AP and FY3ZT autopilot<o></o>

125<o></o>

laceholder;border:none;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">

 

General hobby items<o></o>

laceholder;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt">

 

Spray on Adhesive<o></o>

11.43<o></o>

T-pins<o></o>

.50<o></o>

Hobby knife<o></o>

27<o></o>

Double Edged Razor Blades<o></o>

5.57<o></o>

Epoxy: 15 minute, 60minute<o></o>

10.39 for each<o></o>

Gorilla glue<o></o>

11.43<o></o>

ca glue<o></o>

6.50<o></o>

Razor saw<o></o>

3.79<o></o>

Milter box<o></o>

15<o></o>

Latex gloves<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

<o> </o>

Rubbing alcohol<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Triangles<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Clamps<o></o>

4.19<o></o>

Allen wrenches<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Soldering iron<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Popsicle sticks<o></o>

1 for 1000<o></o>

Rubber bands<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Cardboard<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Cordless drill+drill bits<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Metal ruler<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Wax paper<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Sand paper<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Sanding blocks<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Covering iron<o></o>

19.99<o></o>

Needle nose pliers<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Screwdrivers<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Hobby People 14.8V 3200mAh 25C Li-Po Battery Pack<o></o>

119.98<o></o>

Landing gear<o></o>

400<o></o>

Servos/rods<o></o>

Have it/need rods-1.49 a piece-need 10 of them<o></o>

RC Airplane Joystick Flight Simulative Transmitter System<o></o>

149.95<o></o>

Great Planes Rim fire .32 42-50-800 Out runner Brushless Motor<o></o>

153.98<o></o>

Anchors for the floats<o></o>

30<o></o>

Pool noodles<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Wooden stilts<o></o>

Have it<o></o>

Flagging tape<o></o>

10<o></o>

Balsa Wood pieces<o></o>

100<o></o>

Fiberglass Cloth to waterproof bottom of plane<o></o>

68.50<o></o>

Total Cost<o></o>

$2093.50<o></o>

Note on Landing Gear<o></o>[/b]

            Thereason that the landing gear is so expensive is that it us using a premadepressurized system, we could make our own system and save $400.  Whatever you feel is appropriate.<o></o>

When<o></o>[/b]

            Hopefullythe actual plane will be complete and functional by February 1, the plane plusthe puck-retrieving device will be complete by March 1.  If the pond has melted by then thedevice will be adapted to pick up other objects that can float.  <o></o>

Where<o></o>[/b]

            Ideally,this plane will take off from a runway perform its task, picking up hockeypucks, over the ice.  Then it willreturn to land drop the puck and land on the water/ice.  Senior docks (lower school docks):  The lower school pond would be the bestplace to conduct our experiments because there are docks, which will make iteasy for us to get the plane into the water or onto the ice.  There are also sheltered areas in casethere are large winds outside, and a multitude of places for us to conduct ourexperiments.  There is a largeamount of space which will let us be able to take off and land without a greatdeal of difficulty, and we will be able to watch the plane fly from the chapeltower to see where it lands if it crashes.   <o></o>

<o> </o>

Landing Operations<o></o>[/b]

Inorder to land the plane, we will be using POMOLA, the Poor Mans Optical Landingguide, a system developed by the Marines. <o></o>

            <v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" oreferrelative="t" path="[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <vath o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/></v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" style='width:6in; height:251pt'> <v:imagedata src="file://localhost/Users/jacob/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image001.jpg" o:title="Landing POMOLA"/></v:shape>[img]file://localhost/Users/jacob/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image002.png[/img]<o></o>

<o> </o>

Waterproofing<o></o>[/b]

In order to protect the electrical make-up and mainstructure of the CL-415, we are going to be water proofing the underside of theplane.  The plane itself will bemade out of balsa wood, but there are only a few parts that can possibly beaffected by the water.  In order tofix this problem, we are going to coat the bottom half of the plane, both thebottom of the fuselage and the underside of the wings. <o></o>

            <o></o>

ObjectRetrieval<o></o>[/b]

While there aremany obstacles that our airplane will be able to overcome once constructed, themain goal is to pick up, and transport a hockey puck, a baseball, a lacrosseball, etc.  In order to accomplishthis goal, we have brainstorm many ideas, some of which will work better thanothers, including a suction cup, a vacuum, and, the idea which we plan toimplement, a retractable trap door.<o></o>

Object Retrieval<o></o>

The trap doormust be very thin and must be made of a strong balsa wood.  To operate the trap door, all we needis four servos and four lengths of cable. We will place two servos on either side of the opening into the plane weneed four servos so that we can have two cables that are on either side of thetrap door, rather than right across the opening.<o></o>

            Allof the materials necessary to build the proposed trap door are already in thepossession of the school.<o></o>

<o> </o>

Summary<o></o>[/b]

            Inorder for our goal to be reached, we need the appropriate funding.  This experience will elicit teamwork,cooperation, and patience as this project will prove to be quitechallenging.  This project has alsointroduced students into a field that they never had tried before, remotecontrol airplanes and modeling.  Ihave full confidence that this will be a completely positive experience all around.<o></o>


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