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Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Old 09-19-2003, 02:20 PM
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jkinosh
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Default Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

I have just received the plans for the Bingo that I ordered from RCM, and would like to scan them into the computer to have them for reference, and possibly to transfer them into cad. Does anyone have any suggestions on where I can get these scanned. Kinko's can do it at $10.00 per page and save it as a JPEG or TIF, but I wondered if there is somewhere that might be able to do it for less.

I have a 8.5 X 11 flatbed scanner that I could probably find a way to do it with, but that might take quite a long time, and not come out the best.

Thanks,

Jacob
Old 09-19-2003, 02:32 PM
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beardking
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Jkinosh,
Your best bet would probably be to go ahead and go with Kinko's. Unless you know somone that works at an architectural or engineering office. There are some specialty printing shops that can do it, but I think that they'd be hard pressed to beat 10 bucks a pop. One thing that I would suggest, before you get them to scan your print, make sure that there is some sort of reference scale on there so you can make sure that it is accurate once scanned in. Some of these places (especially Kinko's) don't really maintain their equipment to the highest standards, so they can sometimes get a little off on the scale.

As far as doing it on the flatbed scanner, again, go to Kinko's. It's worth the 10 bucks to not have to take the time to get the small image back to the original image size.

One other thing, once you get them scanned in, send me a copy of the files. I love to convert to AutoCAD. I'm getting a pretty good library of plans right now.
Old 09-19-2003, 02:37 PM
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jkinosh
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

THanks for the advice. If I do get these scanned, I will try to remember to send them to you. I am pretty new to CAD, do I am not exactly sure how hard it is going to be for me to redraw them in cad. But I will Try, I I know I will Learn alot while trying.

Any suggestion on file format and how to do the transfer to AutoCAD. I will be Using AutoCAD 2000i.

Thanks Again,

Jacob
Old 09-19-2003, 03:13 PM
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dr_wogz
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

The other option is to just redraw it in cad. Measure the various parts / peices / sections , and draw lines as needed.. True, ribs (airfoils) and some compound curves can be a bit difficult, but you can do them.. PLine, then Pedit, Then spline... make the airfoil from a multi poiunt polyline..

You'll be playing with lines and poly lines, Offset, Trim, Array, and setting a few layers; one dedicated to 'construction lines'

Print out the various parts / sections, and hold them up against the plan, and that'll indicate if you're on the right path..

If you need any help with ACAD, gimme a shout!
Old 09-19-2003, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Jkinosh, as for the file format, have them saved as a TIFF. That way there is no compression done to the file and you'll get the clearest image. It'll still look like garbage when you zoom up close, but it's pretty workable. Then just use Image Manager to insert the image and draw over it.

dr_wogz, you mentioned using splines for compound curves, etc, I wouldn't suggest that. If you are doing the plans in CAD in hopes of getting it cut by a laser cutter then when they convert it to the Gcode (or whatever format they use) you will have a TON of vertices and that will make it take longer to cut. This in turn will make it cost more to cut (go ahead, ask me how I know )
Old 09-19-2003, 03:33 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

OK

How do you know?!?!?

From a drawing point, that's what I've always, done, and so far no complnaits. I always through it was an easy way to do it! But I'm always eager to learn a new trick!! Arcs, and ellispes (trimmed or course) are another method I'll try..

And that's what CAD is about, tricks!! (And, being a sheet metal guy, I've rarely needed to make 'wierd' curvy lines... )

Usually, I have done a spline in the pedit mode, and the result is a smooth curve, with the same number of vertices as the original /multi-segmnented pline. Apparently with r12 or before files, it turmed them into multi faceted curves... I know there are still a few things that 'get lost' in these new version of ACAD (But then again, that's why they are now pushing Inventor!!)

I guess it also depends on how it is exported, to what format, and how old the converter is..
Old 09-19-2003, 03:46 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Dr_wogz, I know because I had a kit for an UglyStik cut by a very good laser cutter (Laserlizard.com) and I had done splines for the wing ribs and when the cad drawing was converted for his laser cutter, it broke the spline up into individual line segments which caused there to be about 10 times as many vertices per wing rib as it would have been if I had done the curve with a few arcs. With 24 wing ribs, that's a lot of vertices. And each vertex is figured by the laser cutter as another turn which adds to time which of course adds to money.

I didn't know this until just a couple months ago when I had that kit cut and he explained it to me. I have since gone back and changed my plans to use arcs instead, just in case I want to do it again.
Old 09-19-2003, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

dr_wogz, you mentioned using splines for compound curves, etc, I wouldn't suggest that. If you are doing the plans in CAD in hopes of getting it cut by a laser cutter then when they convert it to the Gcode (or whatever format they use) you will have a TON of vertices and that will make it take longer to cut. This in turn will make it cost more to cut (go ahead, ask me how I know )


Beardking I use corel Draw to do all the vectoring for LaserLizard and those are splines and it does not slow his system down a bit. I think someone saw you coming. Now one thing I do know from Jesse is that autocad adds a bunch of bs in its lines and that definately makes the klaser take abt 5 to 10 times longer than the corel files not to mention the file size differences thats why most cutters I talk to would rather have them in Corel format than Acad format thats why I have converted to Corel Draw.

Joe
Old 09-19-2003, 04:01 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Prof, what I was telling dr_wogz is exactly (well as exactly as I can remember after a couple of months) what Jesse told me when he cut my kit for me. If I'm wrong, then excuse my error, I've been known to make those a lot.
Old 09-19-2003, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Opps Guess I shoulda read further before replying. yes autocad has to be converted and when it is converted it breaks at the nodes. it really sucks fixing all them up and then having to adjust the lines to make them smooth as when it does that it makes them straight lines andthen gets that poly look thats why i mentioned most people go with corel files now. also acad does add a bunch of other stuff hidden in the lines.

joe
Old 09-19-2003, 04:25 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

What kind of stuff does it add? There might be something that I can figure out to get rid of the superfluous (love them big words) items.
Old 09-19-2003, 04:29 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Not sure I think jesse said it adds a bunch of hidden things in the lines that the laser tries to read and so slows it down. I was never an acad nut too complicated so i just took him for his word on it.

Joe
Old 09-19-2003, 04:33 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

I'll have to ask him about that. I've been working with him a little lately and I want to make sure what I send him is as clean as possible.
Old 09-19-2003, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

yea he would know better than I. I dont do tons for him lately as i havent had the time heck with new job, studying and everything else i havent had time to remember my own name lately :0)

Joe
Old 09-19-2003, 04:41 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Well, for you and anyone else that might be reading this thread that we seem to have taken over, I'll post back after talking with The Lizard and find out if there is anything that can be done to clear up stuff.
Old 09-19-2003, 06:14 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

THanks for the advice. If I do get these scanned, I will try to remember to send them to you.....
Uh, guys. This is copyright infringement plain and simple. I really don't think this should continue. If it does I'll have to lock it up and dissapear the thread.
Old 09-19-2003, 09:24 PM
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CoosBayLumber
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

I have done several thousand parts in Autocad over the past ten years now. To scan a plan or parts then bring into Autocad is one routine which has been mentioned. Contrairy to what has elsewhere been mentioned, Autocad will only accept uncompressed TIFF files. The scanning agencies like to use TIF3, TIF4, or PICT, as they files are quick reading, and compressed, and thus will write to a disk quickly. However, Autocad will not read it. Certain versions of Photoshop and Micrografx will not read it either. However the Kodak system included in Windows seems to read the files, and then you can additionally uncompress the files so that they can be used in Autocad.

I do not like to use Kinkos. Their scan to copy machines are only 36 inch wide. There is however, a local blueprint shop who uses an OCE' 9500 machine. OCE' has been in the graphic arts reproduction business longer than Xerox has been around. This has been discussed in other forums already. In the graphic arts they use paper of 38.5 inches wide. If your plan is printed (not copied or plotted), then it may measure wider than 36 inches wide. Thus the plan will not go through a Kinkos copier in one pass, but it will go through an OCE' machine. There is a fellow on the internet now who is taking old wide plans and reducing them a few percent to make them fit onto a 36 inch wide machine. This has been reported in several magazines now.

One of the downsides to this is often file size, as to scan a plan in TIF or BMP format may cause your 2000i to cough. The file size for a drawing of 36 by 60 can easily be 20-30 meg in uncompressed format. It really becomes a pain to overlay one line, pan (wait a few seconds as the drawing regenerates), then pan again (wait a few seconds as the drawing regenerates), and then end the line. After about ten minutes of this you become tired. Other system such as Corel is much better in this routine, as they integrate the photo image, and thus the pan is much faster. In my opinion, it would be better to individually scan the items and thus you deal with smaller image file sizes. If you do a huge scan, then cut the drawing up into portions before doing your tracing. Then after doing the sideview, topview, etc, just use the standard XREF function in Autocad to bring them all together.

As to airfoils, the SPLINE option in Autocad is the wrong option. Use the FIT CURVE option. If you are tracing. just use the standard create polyline, then lay on the lines. Hit PEDIT, and FIT CURVE and it will smooth out. This routine is recomended in the conversion of linework by Eric at Compufoil and at the University of Illinois site. The curves actually go through the intended coordinate offsets instead of using the points as a P.I.

Real laser cutting machines other than the Universal and Epilog, most often run on G-code or pen plotter language. Autocad files are readily run or saved for these machines with the ADI interface. Etching laser machines like the Universal run off of a raster language, and specifically they like the code used by CorelDraw. The Universal will run off of Autocad files, but their sales team readily admits a downgrade in quality. Machines such as LaserComp, Kern, L.M.I. will run off of G-code, or HP-GL. There should be no lag time concerning speed to cut one sheet of wood, no matter the file size and amount of trash inside due to the computers used which can disolve drawing files faster than the machine can move. Do an internet search on laser cutting machines, visit the Laser Institute etc, for more follow on information.

Then, DXF file format for drawings is rather crude. Autocad files are saved in a binary format, whereas to be saved in DXF means they are converted over to ASCI format which is larger. The DXF is based upon little bitty line segments creating the long straight lines and the little bits of a curve. Autocad has a standard file setting of 2032 parts per inch when DXF format is chosen. To save a file in DWG format has no set number of parts per inch, until converted into either plotter language or saved as DXF or ASCI formats. This is what caused the lag in running performance. If you choose a laser cutting firm who operates in Autocad, then your file will most likely be cut faster and more accurately.

Bruce may be right, but no one is enforcing the rules/laws except at M.A.N.

Wm.
Old 09-20-2003, 04:45 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Contrairy to what has elsewhere been mentioned, Autocad will only accept uncompressed TIFF files.
Wm.-
I'm confused here- I've inserted JPG, GIF, and BMP images into AutoCAD 2002 DWG files without a hitch. Are we talking about the same thing?

I tried your suggestion on using polylines with the pedit>Fit option for curves, and you're right- just as accurate and much easier to edit. They sure look like some sort of spline-- maybe a different order? Anyway, thanks!
John
Old 09-20-2003, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Wm,
I've read casually your explanation and I've to thank you for it... after read it I understand because my acad doesn't import tiff files!
Regards

Angelo
Old 09-20-2003, 06:06 PM
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jkinosh
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Was it me or did that post just confuse anyone else.

I have has the same experience of being able to import BMP, or JPG, but not Tiff. But I have enough other graphics software that I think I should be able to convert it to some file that is usable.

Thanks for all you help.

Jacob [sm=confused.gif]
Old 09-20-2003, 10:33 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Taht is strange as I thought an ACad file had to be converted to DXF in order for it to be converted to GCode.
Old 09-20-2003, 11:30 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Real laser cutting machines other than the Universal and Epilog, most often run on G-code or pen plotter language. Autocad files are readily run or saved for these machines with the ADI interface. Etching laser machines like the Universal run off of a raster language, and specifically they like the code used by CorelDraw. The Universal will run off of Autocad files, but their sales team readily admits a downgrade in quality. Machines such as LaserComp, Kern, L.M.I. will run off of G-code, or HP-GL. There should be no lag time concerning speed to cut one sheet of wood, no matter the file size and amount of trash inside due to the computers used which can disolve drawing files faster than the machine can move. Do an internet search on laser cutting machines, visit the Laser Institute etc, for more follow on information.
Hi Coos,

I run a Universal system and rarely if ever use the raster functionality of the system. I personally would NEVER cut aircraft parts using rastering. Vector cutting using the machine is a breeze (after having done it for over a year now).

I can laser cut balsa, birch, etc... using vector features of the system and it comes out perfectly each time. Any vector format file that can be viewed in a CAD system (we use SolidWorks) should work OK. I know that Universal preaches the use of Corel, but I worked with one of the Engineers over there before deciding to acquire the equipment and we found that it cuts native SolidWorks files very nicely. DWG/DXF files are just as easy (almost transparent actually). I'm honestly not sure of the code type used in the machine, as the system runs off of a printer driver... I don't have any complaints though, as it is a very transparent download to the machine. It goes like CAD -> Print -> "Start".

I'm not sure what you mean by a "downgrade in quality". I would imagine that if you would try to raster cut from an AutoCad file that the quality would be horrendous. But, it doesn't make sense to do anything but vector-cut a cad file. Part numbers can be rastered onto the parts, but it's time consuming/expensive.

Best,
Old 09-21-2003, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

John

Presume that you are using some OS version of Windows at present time. Go to SYSTEM, then IMAGING, and to KODAK. Do a search on Compression, and it will tell you of the various types for images. The three types you mentioned, as I understand are about as compact as they get. If you use a home scanner, it will save in standard TIFF format which is an uncompressed format. If you use a commercial outlet, (around here) they add in image compression, so that it will fit onto a standard floppy disk. Autocad will not accept a compressed image format as does graphic software like CorelDraw. They accept just about any image in any format without a blink, but is based upon another concept. When I get a disk with an image from an outside agency, it goes through the Kodak images with a save-as uncompressed. Using Kodak, I can alter and send the image direct to the plotter, then Autocad will pull it right in also. When selecting an image type for Autocad to import, it also is reseaching the file attributes to see if it can or cannot. Thus if you go to a agency to have a huge plan scanned, but if compressed in TIF3 format, then Autocad will not list it as being importable.

The difference between FIT CURVE and SPLINE for the polyline option consumes about a page and a half plus illustrations in my manuals. At a distance, they both look the same, but as you found out they really are not. Before the neat airfoil programs came along, I used to make them up via coordinates. When the surface got linked up, that is where I learned of the difference. There is a purpose for SPLINE, but for set coordinates such as used in airfoils, it become wrong.





starcad

There is a secondary ADI software which I use to skip the DXF routine and go direct into G-code. It is loaded up like a driver at the CONFIGURE menu, and is chosen much like a standard plotter driver which rests in a directory off main ACAD. Add in command lines into DOSSTART or AUTOEXEC.BAT to direct ACAD where to locate. I have been using ASSEMBLE, for it works with older 70s and 80's CNC machine technology as I don't understand the 6,8, or 12 axis possibilities. Autocad is used lay out the part then to arrange the direction of the lines. If multiple cuts are required, I have to lay one line on top of another, but with a different Z value for depth. Just hit PLOT and the compilation takes off, and it writes a PLT or TXT file.

As you may suspect, it is not all that simple. If there are holes to drill, it is much easier for me to go into the TXT file and manually write in the X-Y and Z rate. I then know about when to expect a stop and insert twist drill into the chuck. In the TXT format the whole cutting order can be reworked to please and you can insert some extra length to the cut pattern for the tooling to engage.

Then, I use some freeware which works off of a DXF input. The file is exported from Autocad drawing as DXF, view it in the Freeware for cutting order. Then, make revisions in Autocad, and lastly use the ASSEMBLE conversion. ASSEMBLE has no viewing component and sort of doubt it will work in any other CAD software.





Ken

You got it! Universal came out to Pasadena about five years ago with a machine and the onlookers all saw the flashing lights inside the box. Two years after, I brought out that old brochure which contained the name of the salesperson and was informed that neither were around anymore. They mentioned that although CAD was popular it still wasn't for their base customers.

DXF does not equal the quality of DWG, much as SHX text does not match that of TTF text. As you mentioned, it makes for a big variation on quality of end product, mostly from how they interprete curves. I appaud your efforts in making yet another compatibility connection. Not stated, but my thought is the signal being sent down the communications cable to the machine is some sort of combo printer/plotter language like HP-GL2. Other laser cutting systems have been revising their software to work within X-P now. Of the 75 laser cutting firms listed in our four county business yellow pages, none use the Universal. About three years ago, I had a customer wanting to do a lite ply ARF in which the fuselage sides were 40 inches long. I can't remember Universal being able to handle that size.

I have also been keeping notes on laser time, cost of materials, shipping/handling etc. for a host of projects. Did the whole thing for one sheet of 1/8" by 4" by 48" run on a L.M.I. laser machine containing 56 parts and text. Took 379 seconds to complete that sheet the first time through at a real cost of $3.18, including me buying the wood and shipping to them and back. Upon reorder with same exact parts, but rearranged using some compiling software, and one line cuts two parts, it went down to 196 seconds and a real cost of $2.48 per sheet. Cannot offset those shipping and material purchase prices any more now. What is your estimate on costs for a similar project?



Wm.
Old 09-21-2003, 08:42 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Hey Coos, sounds cool. Unfortunately I've been really tied up with this conservation project for the last year and a half and I think technology has once again pasted me by. Been flying about 14 hours a weekend with my students and helping them out flying missions. I've just finished the final proofs of my work bird and have test flown it and am in the process of selling the whole mess to -- Well! enough said on that part. The project did force me to construct a hands-off foam wing cutter and made me get back to the drawing board but time is really tking its toll on me. Working seven days a week for the last six months has not been much fun this summer and again I failed to drown any worms on a fishing line. Hopefully, I shoould be getting back to some sanity in the next several weeks as this years project winds down.

Later - Guy
Old 09-21-2003, 10:26 PM
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Default RE: Scanning Plans for reference and tranfer to CAD

Starcad,

How about keeping us all informed about the foam cutter as it goes on. In one way or another with the rising prices of balsa, I think the foam market is going to take off again. Don't know what it is goint to take, some very light weight foam, an inovative cutting system, or a nearly ready to fly types.

Balsa is convient at present, but t looks to be costly all too soon.

And, I don't know about you folks in Az, but we here have had enough of the heat. It is restricting all activities.


Wm.

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