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STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

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STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Old 01-30-2004, 06:33 PM
  #26  
Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

The "downthrust" is obviously absurd, no doubt about that..
Could you detail the c.g. placement on your plane, and the incidences, wing and canard you found workable?
Old 01-30-2004, 08:30 PM
  #27  
Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

ORIGINAL: Vampire

ALL the discussions concerning the engine thrust angles both in the lateral and vertical planes have stated incorrect data !!!!!

....
.
Real life, no urban legends....
The turbojet engine used in the Me 262 was the Jumo 004, an axial flow turbine.
Axial flow engines use a flow-thru design, front to back, directly along the axis of the shaft(s).
Construction of the motor casing which houses the shaft(s), which carry the compressor and turbine stages is typically split along the centerline of the engine fore and aft.
When mounted in the wing nacelle, this centerline can be observed when the access panels are removed.
On the wartime airplanes, this centerline is parallel to the aircraft horizontal reference linej.
There is no downthrust on the engines on the war time Me 262.
The major problem with the aircraft in service was the extremely short operational time from the engines, time between overhauls being on the order of 10 hours of use, and an overall lifetime for the engine of 25 hours.
The engines suffered numerous failures. as the proper materials were not available in wartime Germany.
The engine unreliability exacerbated the airframe deficiency at takeoff speeds; an engine failure during takeoff being inevitably a disaster, as the airplane was uncontrollable with asymmetric power below 180 mph.
And it was underpowered.
The replica program has to confront this power problem, which still exists.
As the GE J-85 engines are far superior in every way to the Jumo, engine failures should be few, however, the poor low-speed handling problem still exists.
The replica therefore uses a "Throttle Pressure Spring" for controlling engine power in the critical take off area.

"For example, an engine failure during a full power takeoff could quickly result in an uncontrollable asymmetric thrust component. Our project engineers understood this problem, and developed a simple method to control the situation."
...
"If the pilot desires additional power, he may push the throttles beyond the spring loaded position, holding them open against ... spring pressure. The actual hard stop for the throttles will be set at the J-85's maximum thrust setting, which is projected to be around 2,400 to 2,500 lbs., as mounted. The additional power is reserved for two operational regimes.
On takeoff roll, prior to liftoff, and during climb. Takeoff roll is initiated with full power, but it is then reduced to the original Jumo takeoff thrust level (1,800 lbs.) just prior to liftoff. The excess power may be added once safe climb speeds of 260 Miles Per Hour are achieved.
"(2)

This lessens the chance of an engine failure, but the asymmetric control situation is still there!

The "single engine safety speed" for the replica is 260 mph!
This "feature" will no doubt limit the areas where the plane may be flown.
The "onion" in the exhaust outlet which created many problems with the Jumo powered aircraft is simulated only in the replica, and is removed for flight.
.
Now for the urban legend... 9 degrees of downthrust*, blather ,blather, blather.
Neither the wartime Messerschmitt nor the replica progam's aircraft have this "feature".
First, it won't cure the asymmetric power problem of a under-wing mounted engine and insufficient control authority.
Second, 9 degrees of thrust offset takes 15% of the available thrust and diverts it , at all speeds.
Removing 15% of what was insufficient power from the engines in the first place, to accomplish a useless fix, neither Messerschmitt nor the replica group had or would do this.
They are not that ignorant.
The replica has the exterior of the Jumo engine mocked up in the correct place in the nacelle, and is visible when the access panels are removed. The J-85 engine is mounted inside this shell and its rotational axis is on the axis the Jumo 004 would have.
No downthrust!
The purpose behind the deliberate posting (not for the first time) of this "downthrust" foolishness is almost incomprehensible.
In this instance it created a problem with a person who was genuinely looking for guidance, and received instead fantasy.


ref1)Warplanes of the Luftwaffe
Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe, pp 229-237.
(2)Throttle pressure spring
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/te...echnical_2.htm
.
*9 degrees is a change of position of 15 inches in 100 inches. This is not a subtle difference.
Old 01-31-2004, 07:59 PM
  #28  
feihu-RCU
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

I have a copy of Beech Dwg 122-00100-1 which is "General Arrangement (3 View) Model 2000, 1/32 scale dwg dtd 6-4-84. (dwg is a 3'x6' vellum of the Starship)
Top view, engine thrust line - aft is toed out and labeled 1 degree.
Side view , engine thrust line is 2 degrees downthrust with respect to Horizontal Ref Line.

feihu
Old 02-01-2004, 03:23 PM
  #29  
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

The angles stated by feihu are correct (on the full scale aircraft) 1 degree toe-OUT of each engine and -2 incidence of the thrust line in ref. to the !QUOT!waterline!QUOT!.

In my experience, the -2 degrees thrust line has a major influence on the flight characteristics of the Starship when power is applied and removed and works to keep the nose PLANTED on the runway making rotation very difficult during take-off and subsequently lengthening the T.O. distance.

I recommend that you use -.5 degrees down thrust.

The Canard incidence angle should be +5 degrees with the Canard swept AFT, and the Wing root +2 with a washout of -.5 degrees at the tip.

BE PREPARED for a fair amount of NOSE WEIGHT, you just CANNOT get around it on this design.
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Old 02-01-2004, 03:52 PM
  #30  
Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Vamp, downthrust ahead of the c.g. is upthrust behind it.
From your description, the motor thrust line is the blue line in the drawing, which creates a nose-down moment
around the c.g.
Just to make sure we're singing from the same page and not off in some irrelevancy.
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Old 02-02-2004, 12:20 PM
  #31  
JWN
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

ORIGINAL: Vampire

The angles stated by feihu are correct (on the full scale aircraft) 1 degree toe-OUT of each engine and -2 incidence of the thrust line in ref. to the !QUOT!waterline!QUOT!.

In my experience, the -2 degrees thrust line has a major influence on the flight characteristics of the Starship when power is applied and removed and works to keep the nose PLANTED on the runway making rotation very difficult during take-off and subsequently lengthening the T.O. distance.

I recommend that you use -.5 degrees down thrust.

The Canard incidence angle should be +5 degrees with the Canard swept AFT, and the Wing root +2 with a washout of -.5 degrees at the tip.

BE PREPARED for a fair amount of NOSE WEIGHT, you just CANNOT get around it on this design.
Kerry,
Is this the model I remember you flying at Top Gun several years ago? If so, it's sized for a pair of large Super Tigers isn't it? And, if I'm still on the right track, do you have plans or glass parts (or anything else) available for the model? I've been in love with this aircraft since the first time I saw pictures of the factory prototype. I also happen to have a pair of BGX's that I've had dreams of building a Starship for.

Thank you,
John
Old 02-02-2004, 12:55 PM
  #32  
Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

John, for the current sale price of a Starship....( can't even give them away), you might ask Beech for one.
Save the price of the BGX's. and probably be cheaper!
Old 02-02-2004, 01:21 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Paul:

I'm in agreement with your comments. It has been sveral years since I have handled this information from my files but from my reccollection and dispite the apparent thrust line as represented in the side view you have depicted, (note propeller angle) the BLUE line in fact represents the original factory thrustline, (circa 1992). I will confirm this evening when I pull my files out as it is possible that the thrust line may have been changed over the years to reflect what you have depicted (red line)and to which I'm in agreement with !

John:

Yes you are correct, it DID have a pair of ST-2500's and has since been retrofitted with a pair of Moki 1.8's w/ counter rotating props. (unlike the full scale in which both rotate CW)

This has yeilded a 40% increase in combined power and a 25% reduction in engine weight !! It is a totally different flying airplane now.

I do have molds of the Fuse and Nacelles and tooling for all the flush windows and a "rough" set of assembley drawings including the Canard sweep screw mechanisum. I'm in the process of repainting my Starship-2000A to the newer paint scheme. I hope to have it out this year after several years of collecting dust in the back cornner of the shop.

E-mail me at the address below an I will provide more deatils per your request for parts etc.
Old 02-03-2004, 10:08 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Per my factory drawing of 1991, the original thrust line was -2 degrees (BLUE) line as depicted on your side view.

As I have mentioned, I removed 1.5 degrees and now have -.5 degrees this has been very bennifical as the aircraft rotates much quicker and the Canard trim remians very stable thru all power settings.
Old 02-20-2004, 06:43 PM
  #35  
bolicarpo
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hi
Check : www.vth.de ( mdellbau plane section) and you will find 1/6 Scale ( 2700 mm Wingspan) Starship plans.
I am looking for information about this plane ¿Could anyone offer me something? ( Scale documents, Fiberglass parts...)
Old 02-20-2004, 10:00 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

ORIGINAL: bolicarpo
Hi
Check : www.vth.de ( mdellbau plane section) and you will find 1/6 Scale ( 2700 mm Wingspan) Starship plans.
I am looking for information about this plane ¿Could anyone offer me something? ( Scale documents, Fiberglass parts...)
Read Kerry's message two above yours. He built one of these a few years ago and most likely has the parts you are looking for. I myself still need to email him to check on price, etc.

John
Old 02-20-2004, 10:13 PM
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Default RE: RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

BTW, the plans mentioned by Bolicarpo are located at:
http://www.vth.de/shop/shopfiles/pro...=1&PID=3201011

Price is 28 Euro's which is pretty reasonable for a set of plans for a model designed for twin .60's.

John
Old 07-29-2021, 06:42 AM
  #38  
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I hope someone comes with a 3d printed design of such a beautiful airplane

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