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STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

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STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Old 01-23-2004, 04:53 PM
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tripxrcer
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Default STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hey

Well about 3 months ago i saw a starship 2000 and since then i have wanted to make a working model of it. Finding info on this plane is ver tuff so its taken me a wile to get enogh info to start.


My first question would be materials. Would foam be enogh? I want to use 2 .15 engines. something like a 50 inch Wspan?

Second, since i cant fined much info on this plane, is there anything special i need to know about canards?

Third, how can i make those sick wings?!


Thanks

ALex




Old 01-23-2004, 10:24 PM
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clscale-RCU
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

are you in luck.

about 10 miles from me is a Starship that was donated to the Kansas air museum in Wichita, KS. I took about 32 pictures including the interior on this plane. they have since removed the engines but I got pictures of the engine installed before they got removed.

contact www.bobsairdoc.com and ask about the Beech Starship pictures that he recieved from me a few months ago. I can take more pictures if needed of the details like landing gear, and other parts.

give Bob a Call at 714-979-8058, and keep in mind these pictures are not in his catalog yet, since he just got them.

Good luck,
Fred Cronenwett
[email protected]
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Old 01-24-2004, 01:39 AM
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Mike James
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Here's a site devoted to the Starship:
http://www.bobscherer.com/Pages/Starship.htm

You might also try and hook up with Kerry Sterner, over in the "Jets" forum, since he's built a beautiful version of this aircraft.
Old 01-24-2004, 06:59 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Mike - I thought you were working on a composite model of the Starship???
Old 01-24-2004, 09:05 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Nope, never have done the Starship. This year's projects are a 1/6th scale King Air B200, a 1/6th scale Piaggio "Avanti" P180, a new sport jet called the "Eliminator 2", and a couple that will be surprises later. The "Avanti" is probably the one you're thinking of.
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Old 01-24-2004, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

ORIGINAL: Mike James

Nope, never have done the Starship. This year's projects are a 1/6th scale King Air B200, a 1/6th scale Piaggio "Avanti" P180, a new sport jet called the "Eliminator 2", and a couple that will be surprises later. The "Avanti" is probably the one you're thinking of.
Yep... that's the one. Now you did say that you're going to send me a prototype of each of these so I can review them for you, correct?
Old 01-24-2004, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hey Alex, when you get your plane finished, make SURE you start those engines with an electric starter. Hand flipping would be hazardous to your digits!

I just helped a friend with the wing design for a similar wing planform using CompuFoil to loft the ribs and locate the spars. Quite a pain! I would suggest hot wiring the 4 panels from 1 lb. foam, sheet with light 1/16" balsa and wrap the joints with f/g cloth and epoxy. MUCH simpler that way and light enough if you're careful. Also, I would make the canard and vertical areas larger on a small model like this to help with the stability. Nobody will notice it ain't true scale!

As far as canards go, they fly just as well as conventional aircraft if they're rigged properly and the CG is correct. There was an Excel spreadsheet floating around here somewhere that helped you check and be sure the canard/wing area ratios are acceptable and if your CG location is correct. I'm sure someone here remembers where the thread is.

Good Luck!

ps: Make sure the engine cylinders stick out into the airstream as much as possible to help keep 'em cool! Dunno much 'bout single engine canard stability!
Old 01-24-2004, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Canard single engine out is just about like conventional... if the thrust lines are correct to offset part of the imbalance... you have a chance of saving it. If not... game over.

The real cause of most single-engine out losses of the model... stalling it and snaping into a spin. With the thrust imbalance its very hard to recover from the spin. The natural thought: "I lost one and am in a spin... MORE POWER!" can mean death to the model. Sometimes the answer is kill the running engine.

At first indication of an engine flaking out... get the nose down and set up to land.

PRACTICE single engine loss at HIGH altitude. Practice spin recovery with bth engines out before trying a spin with just one engine.

Maintain thy airspeed lest the ground rise up and smite thee.
Old 01-26-2004, 07:45 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

The Starship is really a beatiful plane. Quite an interesting project to build. With canards, it's the most important to make the foreplane (the frontal wing) stall first. This can be acomplished in two ways:

Have an airfoil that stalls at a smaller AoA than the main wing airfoil;
Or, simpler, use the same airfoil, but add about 2 degrees positive incidence.

I'm currently working on a 3D model of it, without the structures, cause it's just for looks. But if you want I can try to design the structure for you.

For 2 .15 engines, try keeping the weight below 5 lbs, to avoid further problem with power loading and wing loading, specially in one engine out situations. In one engine out situation, with this airplane, the problem may not be too hard, because the engines aren't too separated, but it would help to add 2-3 degrees inward offset in the thrust line, to help yawing the plane on such situations.

Again on the airfoil matter, since this airplane has a great taper ratio on the wing, you may need to use different airfoils for the root and tip of the wing. By using a foam wing, this can be easily done. On the root, use a thinner airfoil, and on the tip, use a thicker one, not only to help prevent tip-stall (thick airfoils tend to have higher stall AoAs), but also to help stregthen the wing.

Regards,
Old 01-26-2004, 01:24 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Don't forget this scale detail, too...

On the actual Starship, the canard sweeps rearward for cruise, and back forward for takeoff/landing/slow flight.

Also, I can tell you from experience with a large canard project that if the chord of the canard is not at least 4.5 inches, the canard airfoil you select will not work as expected. The known data we have for model-size airfoils (at typical speeds) seems to break down at about that size. Without doing the math, I believe this means that you'd need to build the Starship at 1/6 scale minimum, and larger would be better. The last thing you need is to have trouble rotating a big powerful twin.
Old 01-26-2004, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all the interest, I have decided to move it up to 10%, this way i could use .25 engines (or maby bigger if needed). I got the 3 view drawings off the Internet and started transferring into auto-cad. So far i have to outline but no internals or surfaces.

THE WING

The only way to make that wing that i can think of it by making it 3 sections and then adding foam to the croners and sanding to smooth. Is a fiberglass Skin the best idea? and if so is it strong enough with out the foam inside? this way i could reuse the foam core for more wings. Also with the fiberglass, if you crash a fiberglass plane is the fuse and wing fixable or can the fiberglass not be re set?

AIR FOILS

Dose anyone have suggestions for the airfoils?

RUDDERS

The problem with the rudders is the distance they are from each other. I was thinking since they are relatively small serfaces i could use two HS55s or something like that.

CANARDS

I am planning on just leaving the canards stationary, just set in the cruse "mode".



Well that is all i can think of at the moment, ill post some Screen shots in a little...


Thanks for all your help

ALex



PS i really need to get info about Glassing so if anyone knows please tell
Old 01-26-2004, 09:45 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

You guys know the FS Starships are quickly fading into the past, right? Not to criticize the effort - in fact it becomes more valuable. I'm just refering to the fact that Beech is making every effort to get the Starships out of public use - thus the one at the Kansas Museum. There have only been 52 of them built, 40-something of which Beech currently owns. THey plane on destroying the ones they have, and giving current owners incentives on other Beech airplanes to trade them in to be destroyed or decommisioned. They just don't want the engineering support headches for such a small fleet.

I was lucky a few months ago. Flew into Ft Lauderdale exec a few months ago and there was a Starship in the FBO hangar. Got to do a walk-around for the first time ever. THe FBO guys told me it would be headed for the chopping block probably about now.
Old 01-26-2004, 09:53 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hey, well i got some time to work on the plans and came up with this so far.


What do ya think?

ALex
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Old 01-27-2004, 12:48 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Not sure on the Canard (especially pusher) Another thing that helps single-engine-out preformance on models of P-38's and similar is downthrust.

The full scale ME 262 had (has... there are a few replicas flying. [8D] ) appx 9 deg downthrust to induce a bank opposing the yaw induced by offset thrust. The downthrust is NOT for pitch correction of a low thrust line... the engine is mounted low to correct for the needed downthrust.
Old 01-27-2004, 07:35 AM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Give Bob Holman a call. In his scale plans catalog is a set of plans for the Starship for sale. Worth the few bucks it costs. There are lots of plans not shown on the web site. http://www.bhplans.com/

Edwin
Old 01-27-2004, 12:19 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

"The full scale ME 262 had (has... there are a few replicas flying. ) appx 9 deg downthrust to induce a bank opposing the yaw induced by offset thrust".
No it doesn't.
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Old 01-27-2004, 12:21 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

I asked a Starship pilot if the props had a short life due to being in the turbine exhaust... Seems to me they would. He said it wasn't a problem..
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Old 01-27-2004, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

ORIGINAL: Tall Paul

"The full scale ME 262 had (has... there are a few replicas flying. ) appx 9 deg downthrust to induce a bank opposing the yaw induced by offset thrust".
No it doesn't.

Youu have to see the PLANS for the thing... the profile view of the aircraft doesn't look like it... but it is there.

LOOK at an Altech Tamecat. How much total downthrust angle do you SEE? (about NONE) How much it there? 9 deg. (if built by the instructions) appx 3 deg due to a droop angle to the fuselage nose, then 6 deg firewall in relation to the nose section. And then... they gave the thing a + 3 deg stab incidence. (so the thrust line is -12 deg compared to the stab but it ALL looks STRAIGHT)

****

Yes that's right... the Tamecat has a degcalage OPPOSITE in diretion to what is normal.. (its something to do with the lifting body effect of that suber-wide fuselage. It NEEDS it.)
Old 01-27-2004, 04:33 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hey, ok so the canards should be made at an angle? then the engines should have 9 degrees of downthrust? What about thrust twords the center?

Dose anyone know what airfoils i should use?

Thanks!
Old 01-27-2004, 07:33 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Be afraid, be very afraid!
There is NO resemblance between what a Me-262 would need and a Starship.
Entirely different breeds of airplane.
Have you googled for Starship?
Real information can be obtained I expect if you search.
Old 01-27-2004, 07:41 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

I have searched but there is little info that i have found, well at least for a modle starship.

I will search some more thow,


Thanks


ALex
Old 01-27-2004, 09:06 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

There's a lot of messages on the Starship right here in the forums...
.
In essence a canard will have the c.g. way forward of where it is for a conventional wing-tail layout.
Many builders use a sequence of models to get the c.g. close to where it's supposed to be..
Building a chuck glider of sheet balsa, about 12" to 18" span is commonly done.
Here's a typical layout which shows where you might expect the c.g. to be on a Starship..
As the Starship is a pusher, with the motor thrust line above the vertical location of the c.g. , it will normally pitch down (but not severely) with power application.
Shouldn't need any thrust offsets up or down, nor any right-left offsets.
The motors are close to the fuselage, so one-engine out handling won't be difficult.
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Old 01-29-2004, 05:00 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

Hey,


...messured and marked by Sparky Paul on rcgroups,




How can i get the CG all the way up there with two engines on the back?!

Anyway its comin along good but i need to fined a place to get the coars cut. Any ideas? and could a CNC machine even cut that middle section with such a steep slope?


Thanks!


ALex
Old 01-29-2004, 09:31 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

BTW, the Excel spreadsheet used to compute the canard c.g. is available at:
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/wiza...aft_Design.zip
It does power and gliders also.
Old 01-30-2004, 04:52 PM
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Default RE: STARSHIP 2000, Help me make one please!

ALL the discussions concerning the engine thrust angles both in the lateral and vertical planes have stated incorrect data !!!!!

The Canard has 2 DIFFERNT incidence angles, 1) when swept forward and ANOTHER when swept AFT ! (sweeps thru 34 degree included angle.)

I have been where you are attempting to go and an interesting place it is.
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