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Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

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Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Old 12-18-2008, 05:01 AM
  #51  
siddus74
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

George,

Flaps would be good, however I have has no previous experience with installing or operating them . . .

Can you offer any advice with regards how much to chop off the inboard trailing edge (depth and width) also the amount in degrees that would be required in operation?

Any pictures for reference?

Siddus74
Old 12-18-2008, 06:22 AM
  #52  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Hi Scotty

Flaps are easy, just think of them as one way ailerons. If you top hinge them with film covering this makes a neat solution.
As to the width, just make them as wide as the widest part of your aileron, any wider and they look odd.
As for the length you can make them as long as you want, the longer the more effective.
Generally when flaps are deployed, there will be a trim change, some times up, sometimes down, it very much depends on the airframe.
You will most probably need a mix to counteract this trim change. If your TX has the servo speed feature (DSX9) then I would use this as it makes a nice smooth transition.

About 20-45 degrees down will give the best lift. More then 45 degrees seams to create more drag then lift.

Generally once flaps are deployed you will notice that speed/throttle changes will either make the model pitch up or pitch down.
Trim the model with the throttle not the elevator.
It might catch you out the first time so deploy flaps at height for the 1st time so you can get a feel for them.

With Flaps you will be able to fly slower and more realistically.

Keep on flapping

Cheers n beers
George
Old 12-22-2008, 06:22 PM
  #53  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Everything has to be done 4 times . . .
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:06 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Not had much time, sheeted the top and bottom front sections, the wing is very ridged now.

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:55 PM
  #55  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

After contemplating the tip floats and wondering whether or not to go for the built up option I decided to use the packing from the recently puchased cooker . . . im sure they will look better an be stronger with some light weight glass . . .





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Old 01-01-2009, 02:26 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

G,

Along with your advice and some sound advice from my friend I have decided to run with the installation of flaps . . . this was a most traumatic time for me, cutting into the trailing edge of a almost finished wing was not my idea of a good time. Happy to report that all seems to have worked out quite well . . . what do you think?

Scott.

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Old 01-01-2009, 03:00 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Hi Scotty

Nice work, I'm sure you will be glad you did the modification when you come to fly it. Just make sure it's slow when you use them.

Went flying today with Brian - It was chuffin chuffin cold!!!

Cheers
George
Old 01-04-2009, 01:57 PM
  #58  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

[8D] Hi Sid, Just got back from a vacation in Hawaii. Left Madison, Wisconsin with the temperature hovering around 0, arrived in Hawaii with a temp. around 86. Beautiful place, but I would be hard pressed to fly RC flying boats in salt water!

Wow, you certainly have made much progress! Looking real good so far. Looks like you're almost ready to fiberglass the fuse! What size are those engines?

Later,
Freddy
Old 01-04-2009, 03:53 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Freddy,

Thanks - not done as much as I had hoped over the xmas break, for one reason or another I have been kep t away from it.

The engines are OS.15fp's in the middle and so of the new new type OS.10la's on the outside with 4oz and 2 oz tanks respectively.

Not far off the glassing I guess, I will be ordering the suppliers from Fibertech on Tuesday, looking forward to getting this onw on the water, almost completes the collection

How long was you in Hawaii, I imagine it would be an exquisite place to fly waterplanes . . . It was supposed to be our monthly water plane meet this sunday but we are experiencing temperatures in the minus's so the lake was frozen and the meet was cancelled. [&o]

What projects are you on with at the moment?

Siddus74
Old 01-05-2009, 05:47 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Hi, Scott

Just signing on. You're doing a lovely job, the flaps and everything else look great. Sorry to see that the wood cutting left so much to be desired, but you and Simon persevered and overcame. To give you an idea on comparative weights, here's what the electric would come to:

4- 200W brushless motors w/4 ESCs. This is essentially the performance of my Astro 020s running on a 3s LiPo, (12.6V charged) turning 7x4 APC props. (27amps, 196W, 12,300 RPM, 46mph and around 1 pound of static thrust) The Astro 020 with ESC weighs 3 oz, so we're talking in the neighborhood of 12 oz for the powertrain, less props and hubs.

4 2000 mAh LiPo's, 3S. (3 cells in series, 12.6V charged, commonly referred to as "11.1V", which is the ready to charge voltage.) The smallest one that I trust is the EVO 2100 Lite, which goes for $63 in the states and weighs 5.6 oz. It has a continuous discharge rate of over 37 amps, so is well up to the task. At something less than half throttle, an astro 020 will get about 7-9 minutes flight time on these, including some high power bursts for T/O and fun. 21.8 oz total, not counting connectors and wiring.

Electrified you're looking at over 40 ounces by the time you finish with the wiring, which has to be a minimum of 12 gauge (preferably 10 gauge) because of the distances involved, unless the batteries are being mounted right up behind the motors, which is silly, because then all the weight ends up being in the top of the airplane.

Two OS 15LAs weigh 13 oz w/muffler
Two OS 10 LAs weigh 8 oz w/muffler

I think it's pretty obvious, that even allowing another 6 oz for throttle servos and fuel systems, the glow powered version is going to be lighter than the electric. The OS engines will also give you roughly twice the thrust of the electric setup referred to. Twice the speed, too, but only if you decide you want to go that fast.

Personally, if I to build the Sunderland, I'd go with some cheap brushed motors and gearboxes (ala Ivan Pettigrew), with a pair of 4-5 amp LiPo batteries in parallel to get the required current. In any event, I think you'll find that going electric with four brushless motors is expensive. Real expensive. The only reason I went the electric route with my Catalina is that I already had the power systems on hand from an old airplane that isn't with us anymore, otherwise I'd have a pair of brand new 15LAs on there.

Oh, one last note. Experience talking here. A pal of mine built a Wing Mfg B-17 with four Magnum 32s. Flew beautifully. If either of the outboard engines quit on the ground, it was shut it down and go get it time, because it would do nothing but go around in circles. I think you'll find the same is true of the Sunderland. Got a boat?

Regards
Old 01-06-2009, 03:54 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Bob,

Interesting to see the weight comparisons . . thanks for this, I feel a little better now. I will definately be intouch when I build my mars to get your take on the required power system and the best way to wire it all up, sounds like you know your electric stuff!

I am going to install a futaba GY501 to help with tracking on take off and also employ thrust diff via a mix to aid steering . . . but if all that fails yes we are lucky enough to have aboat

Scott.
Old 01-06-2009, 05:21 AM
  #62  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Hi Scotty

I find the weight comparison questionable plus the analysis of power.

From OS's Website an OS10LA weighs 3.95oz (112g) and the 15LA is 4.87oz (138g) these weights are without mufflers.
So 4 engines with mufflers I would estimate to weigh around 22oz (623g)
plus 4 mini servos cabling and linkages at 2.47oz (70g) total.
Plus 12oz (340g) of fuel.
Plus 1.9oz (52g) of APC sport props
= 55.9oz (1585g) Plus heavier mounts plus fuel tanks plus heavier frame work to put up with the vibration.

.10 size IC is roughly equivalent to a 160W motor and a .15 is a 240W motor so you have roughly the equivalent of 800W in electric terms.

A 288W motor is roughly 2.36oz (67g) each Total of 9.45oz (268g)
A 33A ESC is roughly 0.776oz (22g) each. Total 3.1oz (88g)
Plus 4 APCE Electric props 0.917oz (26g) total
Plus 4 x 2200mAh batteries 25.25oz (716g) total (8-10 mins of realistic flying)
Plus wire and connectors 3.52oz (100g)
Total 42.25oz (1198g)

In total I would estimate the IC version to be just less then 1lbs heavier then the equivalent electric version

Cheers
George
Old 01-06-2009, 05:33 AM
  #63  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

G,

Ah . . . some good stats there, maybe not so good then? Still as in mastermind 'Ive started so i'll finish'. Every modeller needs to build at least one 4 engined model in there life! My Martin Mars however will be electric so ill be coming to you for those bit and pieces in any case. What you been up to then - hows the Dornier coming along?

Scott.
Old 01-06-2009, 08:15 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

George:

Which Dornier are you bulding?
Old 01-06-2009, 11:56 AM
  #65  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Hi Bob

I'm currently trying to build a small (about 1m, 39") Depron Do-18, It's proving to be quite difficult as I am not used to building planes so small and also from Depron.
My aim is to build a large scale Do-18 around the 100" (2.5m) mark. Then possible give it a flying mate with the Do-24.
I have lots of pictures of the Do-18 on my personal website http://www.worley.me.uk/aeromodellin...nier_do-18.htm
The real trouble is that there are no accurate 3 view drawings of the plane anywhere. I have a plan from the states that a guy drew up in the 60's but it is very in-accurate. and the other small 3 view drawings all vary and miss some of the major design features and get the wing/tailplane proportions wrong.
So the current design process is bit of a hit an miss basis.
I have been side-tracked in the interim by designing a twin motored flying wing. It has the motors in the middle and with differential power on the rudder stick, you can get it to do all sorts of spins and other strange aerobatics. Should have that finished in a week or so and then back to the Do-18

Cheers n beers
George
Old 01-06-2009, 01:23 PM
  #66  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

George: The 18 is one nice looking airplane. One can easily see where the inspiration for the 24 came from.
Old 01-06-2009, 04:06 PM
  #67  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

This website seems useful. Geared towards outrunner motors, tho, which are not always the best choice. The only inrunner brushless they have is roughly the equivalent of an Astro 020.

http://www.commonsenserc.com/page.ph...ch_easier.html

Old 01-07-2009, 03:49 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

After much thought I decided to tackle some of the nacels and hatchs one down 3 to go, also I got a new sander for my toy room . . .

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Old 01-07-2009, 04:17 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Allright, Scott.

You'll fin that disc sander to be liking having a second right hand.
Old 01-15-2009, 10:51 AM
  #70  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

beutifull craftman ship, havent been on here for a while i forgot to subscribe to the thread. i hope it flies as well as it looks at the minute and its always nice to see a kit being built so well as you have built it. keep it up
Old 01-15-2009, 04:17 PM
  #71  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Done a couple of hours during the week . . . the servos came for the flaps so I built the servo boxs and cut the sheeting as required during there installation. It took ages to cut and extend all 8 servos in the wings, it would have cost a fortune for extensions and space is real premium at this size. Bottom sheeting and capping almost complete as well . . . loosing a little motivation on this one now, may have to start my Martin Mars.
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Old 01-15-2009, 04:39 PM
  #72  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Scott:

Nice servo installs. It looks as though only the horn and the screw will be outside the final covering.
Old 01-22-2009, 01:15 PM
  #73  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Decided to stick with what I know regarding the tip floats, just a variation of the Cat / Canadair . . . as the LE is tapered there is potential for the floats to wander out of line, so a small 4mm bamboo peg stops that . . .

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Old 01-28-2009, 04:35 PM
  #74  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

A little each night see's the nacel hatchs complete . . . now I need to remount the engines and do some plumbing . . . 4 times :-(

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Old 02-02-2009, 04:31 PM
  #75  
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Default RE: Discussion - Tony Nijhuis Sunderland

Tanks in, throttles set and sheeting 99% complete, a quit dry fit with all radio, battery and a gyro it weighs in at a shade under 7lb, I was hoping for a little less but what can you do? 4 engiines weigh the amount of 4 engines no matter what you do . . . The target weight is 8lbs so that leaves me 1 lb to ply with for finishing . . . Is that possible?

Is it to late to go brushless?

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