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Hunter Twin Build

Old 02-05-2009, 06:54 PM
  #26  
5150Cat
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Ok, not to jump off subject or anything.....but when my kidney sells on Ebay? I'm going to put two of these side by side in the Hunter!

http://www.conleyprecision.com/609.htm

I know I know.....while I'm dreaming l'd like a pony too......

Mike
Old 02-06-2009, 09:11 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Thought of another quick question as I order this hull.

69" hull. Should I run the longest trim tabs I can get? The two options I'm looking at are either 2.3" X 4.3" or 2" X 3". Guess now that I look at the numbers they aren't that different......


It's the L and XL trim tabs off M$Z's site.....I think I'll go XL just because they are black and evil ninja black is always faster than primer grey!

Yes?

Mike
Old 02-06-2009, 09:31 PM
  #28  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

you did good. XL for sure.
Old 02-07-2009, 09:54 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

ORIGINAL: 5150Cat

Very nice! I like it! (Although the hull need some serious stickers!)

How do you like the engine? That's my biggest hang up although I'm pretty sure it's going to be an inline twin.

Do you know what you are getting for speeds? Rough estimate?

Thanks for sharing. And yes, justaddwata is the sinsai of boats on here. Dude is wicked smart with boat info!

Mike
I have some paint planned off the first twin engine boat I drove as a pup...every time the painter is ready the weather is perfect for running...

I would think a conservative estimate on speeds now is roughly lo-40's MPH. I have tried a couple different popr sets and still experimenting. It sounds like Wickedgoogly had some luck with a pair of 6516-3's after chatting with JAW. I have a set of 7018-2's that I have in a tool box and not tried yet that I am curious about.

As far as the Blata goes...the simplicity of a single piston-single carb is very nice. I broke a pull-cord over extending it piror to me becoming familiar with how to choke it, etc...that was a bit of a PITA but I now have an extra just in case... i can see wanting to use a twin-Zen setup because all of the parts are easily accessible and fairly inexpensivetuning asside.

By the way, those Conley V8's are Kick $#@!!! That is what I wanted to do until I got married and realized that there was no way to find a good excuse for one...let alone two of those babies. Maybe down the road or in a different life.
Old 02-07-2009, 09:11 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Well got my drives and gearbox today. Pretty sweet units. It looks as though one of them may have seen some use but the other looks brand new. The gearbox also looks new. One of the drives is a hair looser than the other. Is there anyway to tell? Sort of gives me a better idea having the drives in hand with what you guys were talking about with small gears. They have to be tiny little suckers. Glad I went with the S6 drives also instead of the Z drives. Think the smaller drives would have looked a little funny.

Ordered my hull last night also. Going to put a call into the good dr and start a constant badgering until the damn thing is on my doorstep! ) He said about the end of February though which is cool. Still a chilly 65 degrees here in San Diego so that will give it time to warm up! )

Anything service wise I should do to these drives or gearbox? Aside from fresh oil? And what do you guys run in them? I'm thinking some Mobil 1 synthetic since it's good enough for my car. But I'm novice on the drives here. Any input here will be taken as good advice.

Throwing in the pics even though I know you guys know what they look like.
Mike
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:29 AM
  #31  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

MH$ has an oil /tune up kit for the drives m-1729/W. Never used one so not sure what it includes or uses for oil. I personally use heavier gear oil and/or a very tacky Lucas gear oil fortifier (Walmart - $7).

You will might just put a square cable in the input and turn the cable to see if you have a pair of regular or counter rotating stern drives. MH$ will mix and match what they ship - it is not a big deal which they are if your using the box - just as long as they are both turning the same direction individually.

Not sure who the "Good" Dr is. But good luck with the badgering - I was pretty consistant when I waited 6 months to have one of my orders completed. He has a very established series of stories and explanations for delays. Hopefully yours is indeed enrout though. (He has been known to frequent this forum too so as a customer - watch what you say. He already knows my very low and hard earned opinion of him and I will never be a customer again). But if he said Feb then we can all follow along on the status of delivery - keep us in the Loop on its shipment Once in a while he has to be right - right?

Only way I have found to determine if it is used is to pull it apart and look at the gears for evidence of contact. Also the threads where the unit has been mounted would look used and not the anodized finish they have from the factory (though this would indicate more that it has been mounted and not necessarly used). The oil coming out of the drive (when you drain it) may also be a little discolored from the initial mesh wear if used.

For your gearbox - you are going to need the adapters that allow you to connect the box to the round cable. There are collets ($36) or you can use the round adapters that are bonded to the cable. They are around $18 a piece. If you have access to a lathe or someone with one you can make them in about 20 minutes and it is one of the easier things to make. Just a round sleeve that is snug on the 7mm output shaft one end and snug over the round cable on the other. Tap a grub screw in the gear end to lock on the gearbox shaft flat and loctite (648 retaining compound) to the cable and your good to go. They are mild steel - nothing fancy.

Old 02-08-2009, 02:01 AM
  #32  
5150Cat
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Thanks for the info Matt.

I've heard both sides now to gear oil. I've had a couple people tell me to use the thinner viscosity oil because it will tend to want to work it's way up to the top gear easier.....but I tend to lean towards what you say with the thicker gear type oil. The oil I drained out of the drives is a honey consistency and about the same color too. I've pulled the drives apart and can't really see any wear to speak of although one of the drives does have some very fine aluminum "sparkles" in it which I would assume mean it's been run. I've asked the guy if he ran either and haven't heard back. They have both been mounted. The silver donuts that go between the transom and the drives are mucked up too but he said those were used of another set of drives. I'm looking to replace those bearings already. And the numbnuts stripped the screws out of two of the three on one drive. But that's an easy fix. I'll just drill it out and tap a little bigger hole in there. It's just to support the drive cable anyway.....no big deal there.

I see what you mean about building the collets or adapters for the cables. I have a couple buddies with a machine shop so I'll try to hit them up. Been looking very closely at Phil's setup on your pics to try to do this one right.

I also checked the rotation of the drives. They do both go the same way which is good. And of course the gear box is counter rotating. So that will be nice. Already got the top marked so I know which way to face the box to get the props to turn in. Speaking of props, I was going to go with those props you mentioned earlier that Phil was having luck with. And I know you've told me where you get your props before......can you remind me again?

And yes, I'm hoping the dr comes through. I have nothing bad to say about him since I haven't had any dealings with him yet. But I hope they are all good. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt now and see where that gets me. Having money out of my account and no boat in my shop makes me itchy though!

Also, on one of the drives it looks as though an o-ring is missing. It's a little black ring that goes directly between the drive and the prop shaft. In one of the drives I see a little black o-ring type thing and the other doesn't have it......should I be concerned there?

Mike

Old 02-08-2009, 02:03 AM
  #33  
MrMikeG
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Pippe looks small?
Old 02-08-2009, 02:04 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Also, in looking at Phils Hunter it looks as though he has a solid drive from the motor to the gear box......just with two u-joints in there......is that the case? Is that the way to go? I would think some flex would be wanted there but maybe not. Sure does look nice with the chrome u-joints in there.

And I'm guessing the flex drive from the box to the drives obviously......just not sure about the motor to the gearbox......
Old 02-08-2009, 02:48 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Definately use a flex cable from the motor to the box. The drive shaft Phil used lasted around the 5 minutes I had predicted and cost over $100.

If you could shoot a picture as to which O ring you are referring to (or its location on the drive if it is internal and has been reassembled). More than likely it is important to ensure water does not enter the drive (or oil leak out). Plus - easy enough to source an O ring or silicon to seal the point.

The guy I would be calling for props is Chris Hoffman - Dasboata.com Never heard of disappointment with him and he is an asset to the hobby.

The support bearings (Silver donuts) are to be mounted on the inside of the transom. They could be secured to the transom though probably better to the drive. You use the 4 larger threads to secure the drive to the hull though (I have seen some just use the three holes to secure the drive - not good!!)

There should be no need for the oil to work its way up to the top gear as the entire drive should be filled with oil. Heavy weight oil is optimal for gears to minimize surface wear between the teeth. The Lucas oil additive I use is very much like honey - I heat the container in hot water before using to make it easier to work with (not much easier but it helps). The Syringe technique is easier to fill with too.

While shopping parts - Keep in mind that you will need a short length of reverse rotation flex cable for one drive. It will need to be a square drive also for the input gear.
Old 02-08-2009, 12:27 PM
  #36  
5150Cat
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Matt,
Sweet. I keep saying thanks but the amount of information you're giving me is taking any hesitations away that I may have had about doing this boat perfect. It's just cool to have a hobby where people are so willing to give info and pass things along. Pretty cool.

At any rate here are some pics. I don't know if you can see but one of the drives has a black o-ring and the other doesn't between the drive and the prop shaft. The one o-ring that's even in there is screwed up enough it can't be doing anything......not sure if this is a leaking point or not. I didn't see any oil coming from there but the guy had these things bathed in oil for the trip over from Florida.

As for the flex cable. I do see in some of the pics he changed over and has a strut type configuration mounted up in the center of the hull to bridge the gap there. I'll look at doing something similar to that and keep flex cables going from motor to box and from box to drives. Thanks for the heads up on the reversed cable too.....would have surely spaced that one.

I will be calling Chris next Ebay sale or next payday to get some props coming. Premature since the hull isn't here but I don't want to waste any time on this build. Thanks for that hook up! What would you recommend for a couple of props.....maybe those that Phil used and another for different conditions or something? I'd like to have a couple on hand just in case.

So I'm taking that you use a thicker motor oil like Mobil one or something and then add the Lucas oil additive as well? Or are you using a thicker type oil? And should I spray all the oil out thats in there now and refresh the drives totally with new oil? Or just empty them and refill? Seems like I'd want to clean out all the shmagma from anything that might be in there and start fresh......but maybe not?

And my silver donuts where pretty thrashed. Going to get them powdercoated or polish them up.....not sure which yet. The bearings were thrashed also. Ordering new ones of those from Boca tomorrow. Looks like he had tried to get them out with a torch and failed. ( So I'll score new ones to make everything run smooth.

I'm really hoping the one drive that's been run will hold out. I have no idea how it was treated or how much use it's seen. Keeping my fingers crossed there.

Mike
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

If I may chime in on the gear oil...Hypoid was what was very highly recommended to me. I work in a boat dealershiup and was not familiar with that type of oil so I tromped back to service to check it out and aks around. Apparently it is a type of SAE90 wt oil that is specifically used in gear boxes and for use with worm/spiral cut gears. It holds its viscosity to MUCH higher temps and pressures.

I did purchase a "service kit" for the S6 when I bought the boat and they included a "LiquidMoly" Hypoid gear oil (I think it is a European brand as I have not been able to find it on the shelf here), a siringe, a length of tubing with a nipple fitting attached, and some directions in German. I just recently picked up a bottle of AMS or Lucas (can't remember t this point and I am at my office) Hypoid Gear Oil 90SAE but hav yet to need it.

Basically on the newer type drives with the lower drain hole (like you showed in the pix), it said screw in the nipple fitting from down below and open up the top screw where the tie-bar attaches. Run the new oil through the drive from the bottom up and let the old drain out into whatever works for you until the oil seeping out is clean.

After I used my drives for the season, I actually opened up both, let the old oil drain out with gravity and flushed both drives with Hypoid oil from the top down. I then filled from bottom-up as the directions suggested after I felt all was well and good inside...?

I hope that helps a little. I think we all do what we feel is best (or what others in the hobby near us/in the same club do) anyhow....

Good luck wit the build...you have my attention and I have enjoyed keeping up on it!!!
Old 02-08-2009, 01:49 PM
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Hey thanks Floggin! Hadn't quite figured out what the best way to fill those would be. I guess they do it from the bottom up to chase all the air bubbles up? Dang with that thick of oil though that seems crazy......but it makes sense. I will definitely do it that way. I don't think I have a fitting that will fit the bottom but can get one.

Think I'll do like you said and drain all the oil out with gravity and then refill it with the good stuff. I'll try to hit a marine place around here to see what I can find. Like I've said before if it's good enough for the real thing it's good enough for the hobby right? )

Thanks for the good words. This build has been a lot of years coming. It's nice to be in a position that I can do it right and make sure it all works. And help from you all definitely helps as well. Hopefully it will come together somewhat quickly and I will definitely keep the forum posted and up to date!

Mike
Old 02-08-2009, 04:49 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

You know Mike. I actually came across a number of e-mails that we sent back and forth in 2005. So I can attest that you have been working up ideas for some time. You are certainly on target for a great boat. Just wish you lived a little closer.

Regarding props - I would wait until you have the motor in the hull before ordering since a change in power could mean a change in props.

I have not seen an O ring between the drive dog and the case. I am curious if it is the oil seal that has popped out slightly. How does it look if you pull the drive dog away from the case - is there a seal on the other case? (Been that long since I pulled mine off that I dont remember how it looks).
Old 02-08-2009, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Yes I remember hassling you years ago for answers to questions! Hopefully I'm not repeating any of them to bad. I think I still have some of those archived somewhere as well. I should check them over to make sure! And yeah, that sucks we live so far apart. Be cool to hang out drink some beers and talk boats! Better yet do some racing on the weekends! Oh well, someday.

Good call on waiting for the props since I'm still all over the map on power at this point!

I think that may be what is going on is the o-ring is the main seal down there. Although I've torn apart the gearbox I have yet to get into the drives to far. How do I get that drive dog out of there? I assume the big bolt on top has to be undone. Then does the stainless part pull apart from the black assembly? Clueless here.

And back to the gearbox. I'm thinking that it wasn't ever used. The gears all feel pretty tight and upon inspection I don't see any wear......or very minimal at best. There is a catch though......when I spin the main shaft going in with my fingers it will catch at one point. I don't see any junk in the gears and it's not happenning every rotation which is weird. I'm sure it's just a break in thing but I plan on hosing out the whole assembly with brake cleaner and starting fresh with new lube. Maybe hit it with the Makita to break it in for a bit just as a safe measure.

Probably will do the same with the drives to make sure also.

Mike
Old 02-09-2009, 12:05 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

The drive dog is removed by losening the grub screw. To remove the complete shaft assembly you will need to loosen the grub screw which locks the bearing in position - I believe the case halves must be separated to access this (Have never tried while assembled) - though if you pull the most rearward screw on the upper case and insert an alan wrench you might reach the same grub screw at the bottom of the hole. (Sure is a good thing MH$ dont ship instructions with these little gems isnt it!!)

I know my gearbox had an intermittent bind when I would turn the shaft by hand. I pulled it apart and found several metal shavings in there. QC guy must have had that day off. I would pull the gear box apart when your at the point where it catches - then rotate the shaft and see if you can identify the point of contact - might be a burr that is stuck to the gear. Better to check now than shop for gears after a few hours of running.
Old 02-09-2009, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Yeah it's very interesting. Just had talk with the Dr. as well. He was telling me that it was bad to open up the drives due to the backlash and such.....but that seal is definitely not right. So I'll look into it tonight to see. Don't want any extra muck water getting in the drive.

I did pull the gearbox apart right at the point I felt the tick. Can't find exactly where it is though. I don't see any muck in the gears nor any burs. What's weird is it only happens with the halves are together. Once I seperate them it's smooth as silk. I'll do a more detailed cleaning this weekend after I get some motor spray to really clean things out. Either way the more I work through the drive it seems to be working itself out with minimal damage if any that I can see. What's weird is even with the two halves together it doesn't happen on every rotation......can't figure that part out. Oh well.

Dr says my hull should be here to my door within 20-30 days. We'll see.
Mike
Old 02-09-2009, 05:16 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Hey another question.....

Looking at a couple other engine builders. Anyone have any experience with CC Racing Engines or Redline Performance Motors?

More thoughts for an inline.

Mike
Old 02-09-2009, 05:51 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

What's weird is it only happens with the halves are together
I've had this on gearboxes for buggies, it is usually 1 of 3 things,

a bent axle or unseated bearing the gear rotates on, or

less likely - in proper moulded gear (hole drilled off center).

While there is only support from one side the axle can move & the binding goes away, support the axle from both sides and it binds again.

hope that helps find the problem.
Old 02-09-2009, 06:05 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Dicko,
I'm thinking along the lines that you are. I'm almost positive it's a bearing that's shot. I'm going to look at getting some good replacements and start with that. Although all the bearings felt smooth......

Not sure if they were sealed or repackable. I'll check into that tonight to see what options I have. I bet that's what it is though.

Good call!
Old 02-10-2009, 06:55 AM
  #46  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build


ORIGINAL: thegoodson

if i could offer one piece of advice regarding scale drives, it is this; in full scale operation, common failure of these drives has to do with heat. specifically, the top most helical gearmesh is not immersed in oil or water as is the lower unit of the drive. therefore, after extended periods of running, even and "normal" speeds and loads, this part of the drive grenades. Mercury came up with a simple fix, and that is to shower the top of the drive with water to prevent heat build-up on top. i'd imagine in the R/C world, these drives have a similar weak point. if the upper unit of the drive can stay cool, or oiled enough, longevity ought to go up.

This is certainly true with full sized boats. Our 36 footer with twin 525's and XR drives has halo style drive showers on it, the boat goes through noticably less drive lube.

Tom
Old 02-10-2009, 10:02 AM
  #47  
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Ok so here's some motor info I'd like to run past you guys. Got this from Tony at WareHouse concerning an inline option:

"I have spend over 40 hours testing it, and am ready very soon to
market it. I designed a "clutch" coupler so there is not a direct drive from
engine to engine. I found that the direct drive would not last for more than
a couple hours at best. I tried most on the market and every one failed
within the same time frame. I urge people to put these manufactures on the
spot with the question, because not one I tried lasted. You would have to
get the alignment to: 0.001, possibly 0.002, and Zenoah holds + - 0.003. So
if I made the coupler exact, there would still be discrepancy between the
two engines. At RPMs of 15,000 the work related heat is so intense
(deflection at 180 degrees), that the couplers self-distract pretty quickly.
Once they begin to wear and have "slop" the system fails on a rapid decline.
The great thing about a centrifugal clutch is, they are designed to
oscillate.
Our system works very well. You simply start the forward engine and throttle
up to start the rear engine. You get a direct lock-up at about 7000 rpms.
The odds of retrieval are greatly reduced, as you can re-start a dead front
engine, or come in on either if one fails. "

Twin clutches? Weird. But how he explains the details it makes sense. And knowing Tony I don't think he'd let anything slide by that wasn't tested tried and true. What's everyone think? Matt? What's your take on this bud? You've run inlines before correct?

Mike
Old 02-10-2009, 10:14 AM
  #48  
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Tony came out with this Inline clutched motor over a year ago - then he very quickly and quietly stopped any promotion of it - even the website was pulled. I believe the blurb you have attached from Tony is the same one listed on his site over a year ago too. Never did hear any official word as to why he did this.

Personally - I time my inline motors so the pistons are 180 degrees apart. Believe it is the recommendation of EVERY motor builder that this is done. Tonys clutch technique completely disregards motor timing and I see that as the weakness of his design.

Old 02-10-2009, 10:22 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

That sucks! I thought it was a little strange of a setup though. What do you think about his engines Matt? Seems like I've seen some good reviews on them.

And where's the best place to get an inline kit? The hardware to tie a couple Zenoah's together? I think I remember you saying Raj had some but I never had any luck connecting with him that I can remember.

I'm thinking I'm not going to go crazy with the engine mods but would like just a bump over stock.....then go from there.

Mike
Old 02-10-2009, 10:43 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Hey guys,
Just wanted to pass along info here. The guy I bought the drives from has a brand new MH$ Blata M1531 with pipe and all the fixins for sale. Believe he wants $1700 for the setup.

Let me know if anyones interested and I'll get you guys hooked up!

Mike

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