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Hunter Twin Build

Old 01-31-2009, 07:38 PM
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5150Cat
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Default Hunter Twin Build

Hi guys,
Back again finally. Just sold my big HPR cat. Was just to much boat for me being in the chair and stuff. Especially how I wanted to build it with dual twins......would have been one heavy sucker!

So cash in my pocket is killing me and I've ordered a Hunter hull. I've also just recently found a guy who I'm working with to get a MHZ gearbox and two new S6 drives for the boat.

Question is motors. I'm going with an inline dual or triple. I would be happy if this boat did 50mph but really happy if I could get 60mph. Zenoah is good, reliable, tons of parts and last forever but I'm not sure if it's hot enough. Bonzi has a big race version for around 2k. Then there's Quickdraw which I've heard have the nuts but wear out quickly.

Input?

I understand that with hp and rpm's come wear and tear. And I know it costs to go fast. Just curious what you guys have found for best speeds and performance combos.

5150
Old 01-31-2009, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Hi Mike,

You have a few variables in that mix that are worthy of consideration.

Firstly - for its length - the hunter is HUGE. A lot bigger than one would expect. The boat Wickedgoogly built that you had asked me about was powered by a QD70 through a gear box to C/R S6 drives. Dont think any tue speed recordings were made though think it was in the mid 50mph range running a pair of 6517/3 props (Tiny props normally though with the overdrive they were plenty). http://justaddwata1.multiply.com/pho...ls_Hunter_sold

A single inline zenoah would be pressed to get the Hunter over mid 40's would be my thought - especially taking into account overdrives etc. Having an Inline twin modified for notably more power would certainly help things - put you into the 12hp range and remain light. I should think 50's attainable.

An inline triple might give you more respectable speeds but I would think the life of the rear motor would be comprimised quickly - the little crank was never ment to have 12 or 13 odd HP passing through it - especially with the torque generated by the three firing positions Vs 1 or 2 for the other options.

A pair of inlines will fit that hull and move her fast but the stern drives will not appreciate all that power for long - plus you will have a heavy boat that you were trying to avoid in the first place.

You could always look at the QD70 or Mathe 70 but I think I would start with a single inline and if extra speed and power is needed have the motors modified.

Keep us in the loop on the build
Old 02-01-2009, 12:01 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Matt!
Thanks for the info! I was hoping the sinsai would be first to respond!

So are you saying just start with a stock online twin or just a single cylinder? I know we have talked about all this before and am scared to death these friggin drives are going to grenade the first time or two I take them out! But I'm going to break them in and see if I can't keep them going. I also have two friends that are engineers and have full access to a machine shop so we'll see if they can upgrade them in any way.

I don't reallymind if this boat is heavy as it will be a little easier to move than the huge cat......so no worries there. At this point I'm just wanting this build to be perfect!

Mike
Old 02-01-2009, 12:36 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Was thinking twin Cyl zen set up as a minimum. One single Cyl would not do much at all.

With the gearbox and twin drives you should have no granade issues from an inline zenoah - even if modified. But if you were to run a pair (twin) of inlines to a pair of drives you may have some life expectancy issues with the gears.

I would look at a boat like the Bonzi 84" apache as a guide to power and performance. The Hunter probably has more room inside than the 84 but will likely respond similarly to power inputs.

Another option would be to just have a pair of single modified zenoahs each driving a stern drive directly (no gearbox) which should speed things up a bit more than a stock inline.

A pair of QD35's with each driving a stern drive might be a good comprimise - Should be sufficient power to get into the 50's and yet maintain the life of the gears better than other options.

Once you have the hull in hand you will have a better feel for how big a canvas you have to work with and what kind of weight you will need to push.

Old 02-01-2009, 12:52 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Ok so maybe I was confused. I knew a pair of twins would be way to much. I was thinking like you said in just a single inline twin. A 70cc type set up.

So you think I should start with a pretty mild inline? I could always have it modded after that I suppose. I will check but think the modded Bonzi was just under 10hp?

Hmmmmm I'll keep researching stuff. Thanks for the info!
Mike
Old 02-01-2009, 01:53 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Oops
Old 02-01-2009, 02:00 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Ok so here's the latest update. I talked with the guy I got my parts from. Asking him about the drives and some more info.

He stated the same thing you did Matt. He said he has numerous pairs from RCM, Kanello's and MHZ.....some for over 10 years. He basically said they are "scale" drives so you need to run them "scale". He suggested just a stock inline twin and to keep the mph somewhere between 40-50mph and they should last forever. Said they weren't meant to take huge amounts or HP. Said to keep the rpm in the 10-14k region and they should be fine.

I like the idea of more speed with two single engines.....one on each drive and eliminate the gear box. But I think for the ease of starting, tuning and fuel stuff I'm leaning towards the inline dual into a gearbox. Sounds like I should look for an engine with more torque than rpm's for this setup since the drives and box are all geared up.

Here's the specs on the engine Bonzi has:
Horsepower: Approaching 8 HP
(with Quiet Power Tuned Pipes)
RPM Range: Approximately 3,500-16,500 peak
Cylinders: Twin (2)
CC: 50.8
Weight: Less than 7 pounds
Length: 10" (back of recoil to end of crank shaft)

They have 4 different levels of modification depending. I'll shoot them an email now to see what would get me the closest to what I'm after here.

Pretty excited to get these drives though.

The technical and mechanical side of me still has to wonder if these drives could be upgraded at all. Maybe the gears out of better material or something? It just would be nice to have a set of gears custom made for these things and have a bulletproof drive capable of considerable speed. I do realize though that scale cannot always match the performance of the full sized counter part.
But I'm still curious.......

Mike
Old 02-01-2009, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

if i could offer one piece of advice regarding scale drives, it is this; in full scale operation, common failure of these drives has to do with heat. specifically, the top most helical gearmesh is not immersed in oil or water as is the lower unit of the drive. therefore, after extended periods of running, even and "normal" speeds and loads, this part of the drive grenades. Mercury came up with a simple fix, and that is to shower the top of the drive with water to prevent heat build-up on top. i'd imagine in the R/C world, these drives have a similar weak point. if the upper unit of the drive can stay cool, or oiled enough, longevity ought to go up.
Old 02-01-2009, 03:20 PM
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5150Cat
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Very interesting. I've always wondered what or where these drives fail. That would of course make sense. So I wonder what would happen if I just plum another line in and have it dumping cool water over the top of the drive?!?!?

Hmmmm I'll have to check into that. Might be onto something here though. That would be extremely simple to do and I could probably machine something stealthy that would look nice too. Don't want to have a big piece of pipe hanging out there. That's cool. Thank you for the info on that.

Heat kills everything so that has to be one of the issues.....I'm going to look into trying that. I think if could maybe machine a piece that has a intake that mounts onto the top of the drive where the connecting rod mounts for where the dual drives mount. Then make the unit an upside down Y shaped with outlets that sort of look like an oval or smashed circle to flatten out the water stream a bit to bathe each side of the drive in ice cold 70 degree water......might help. May not be an absolute cure but even if it would prolong things for another 20 hours of running it would be worth it to me.

Thanks for the info goodson. Might have to head down to some of the boat race shops and get some pics to see how Merc did it as well.

Mike
Old 02-02-2009, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build


ORIGINAL: thegoodson

if i could offer one piece of advice regarding scale drives, it is this; in full scale operation, common failure of these drives has to do with heat. specifically, the top most helical gearmesh is not immersed in oil or water as is the lower unit of the drive. therefore, after extended periods of running, even and "normal" speeds and loads, this part of the drive grenades. Mercury came up with a simple fix, and that is to shower the top of the drive with water to prevent heat build-up on top. i'd imagine in the R/C world, these drives have a similar weak point. if the upper unit of the drive can stay cool, or oiled enough, longevity ought to go up.
You are correct. The only failures we ever expericed with the Mecruiser outdrives were on the top end. The scariest was on the way back from Bimini midway to Miami. A jerry rig to the top end of a Mec TRS #3 let the boat limp back at less 15 knots. Not fun but a fair amount of trolling got done.
Old 02-02-2009, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Ok I've had another things to throw in the mix.

The Z drives vs the S6 drives. Would it be better to run a Z drive? The upper shaft that drives that top gear is shorter. That would eliminate some of the stress on that top gear maybe?

I just got a gearbox and two drives coming as of today and they are the S6's......but now I wondering if I should pick up a pair of the Z drives instead? Can't see it making that big of different......I believe the S6's are only an inch or so longer.

The Hunter hull is 69" and I think in all the pics they have on the M$Z site they are running the Z drives.

Another thing is the water out of the water cooled jackets. How hot does that usually get? I understand that it's going to be toasty since it's keeping the heads cool as they push my 30lb boat around the water at high speeds. I'm not thinking it would be cool enough to cool the top of the S6 drive. Think to be safe I'd better run fresh water to those.....

Input? Opinions?

Mike
Old 02-04-2009, 12:37 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Hey I know there are a few inline twins out there.....

Has anyone ever doubled aup a pair of Quickdraw 25cc engines? I know they have the 70cc twin but at $3000 that sucks. Could pick up two single 25's for around $1600......

I wasn't disappointed when I've run my QD's in the past.

Mike
Old 02-04-2009, 03:43 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Mike,

Not sure what you were thinking of trying with regard to reducing the upper drive temperature but I do not think water cooling practical or needed. The lower drive is submerged and does pull heat from the drive. The entire drive is oil filled so heat at the gear is not going to be excessive. Issues that relate to failure of these drives tie mostly to the fact that the gears are tiny. When you see the size of a tooth and consider pumping more than 5hp through it at near 20,000rpm - you will appreciate why they can fail if over powered.

The shorter shaft in the "Z" drive is not likely to change the life of the drive. Plus the "Z" drives are a little shorter and might look a touch small on that big transom.
I am actually curious if the latest revision of the "Z" drive is even using a shorter shaft - it certainly looks like it has the same S6 lower end.

I believe it is possible to join a pair of QD25's together using an inline kit though slight modification to to some components is needed. I cannot say I have seen one but know of an inline triple done by XXXBoatworks using three QD 4 bearing cases that used the zenoah kits.

Quickdraw were working up some twin 25 configurations but do not believe anything made it into production. I am sure they may add some additional feedback.

There was a time when BH Hanson offered a QD50 "MonsterHorspower"(About 3 years ago).

Still think a pair of stock zenoahs is a good place to start though. You can build your own inline with change from $600 (2 x zenoahs for $200-220 each and an inline kit for as little as $150) - You can then bolt on upgrades (possibly the WHH Head kit or RCMK head) for a little more zoom when / if needed. The beauty of the inline zenoah has always been the low price of parts - Worst case scenario your out a $200 motor - Same cannot be said of the Quickdraw.

What are your thoughs about running a pair of single cyl motors - like a pair of QD25's with each running its own stern drive. Saves you some $$ for the gearbox and inline setup. It is not like you are going to be short for space inside.


http://photos.imageevent.com/justadd...e/DSCF9212.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/justadd...e/DSCF9228.JPG
Old 02-04-2009, 04:32 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

My mate Wayne is running a large cto3 67" cat with counter rotating bonzi4 zenoahs and its hitting 58 mph and i reckon it will do well over that when he gets some more adjustments done.Heres a video of a look arround it and one of it running.If i were you id run twin counter rotating zenoahs that would be your cheapest option and would give you a decent speed.Id maybe go for the m5 mod from whhobbies everyone seems to be raving about them,just have him make one counter rotate or do it yourself.As for drives pass.
Mart
[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Ac6-saaxg&feature=channel_page[/link]

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBnq2aVElvQ&feature=channel_page[/link]
Old 02-04-2009, 09:20 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Matt,

Always liked that Hunter of Googly's. Was that his first large project?
Old 02-04-2009, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

I had a feeling that trying to cool the top of the drive might be a little much now that I look at them closer. I agree that with the work it would take to make it happen it would produce very minimal results at best. So I'm scratching that idea.

Matt, what was Googly running in his Hunter? Didn't he have the S6's and some twin setup? I can't remember what he was running to be honest. I've been reading that guys have been fighting some with the Hunter to get it balanced right.

For the simplicity I'd like to stick with the one inline twin. I've thought about getting rid of the gearbox and such. I'm curious what the speed difference would be running two singles vs one twin. It just seems easier to do one engine vs two for the linkage and such as well as balance and lower CG in the hull......but maybe it's not that big of a deal either.

I have two of the drives coming with a gearbox. Got a smoking deal on the package I couldn't turn down. I pretty much bought the drives and got the gearbox as an added bonus......

But I certainly wouldn't be against running twin singles vs the inline. Might have to head that route instead.

Mike
Old 02-04-2009, 06:11 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build


ORIGINAL: Paul M
Matt,
Always liked that Hunter of Googly's. Was that his first large project?
Actually Googly built the Dewalt cat I purchased and then started on a 65" MH$ Fountain but bailed on that before he gained any momentup in favor of the Hunter. I ended up the the Dewalt cat and Fountain - think the "Unchained" Hunter is the only big build he has done that I dont have in the basement. That ended up going to Armand in Florida.

The hunter was powered by a Quickdraw 70 inline through a Bonzi clutch to an MH$ gounter rotating box and then a pair of S6 drives. He also installed the adjustable trim kit for the drives but used it once (once set you dont really adjust it)

Balance can be a little tricky - I know Phil had issue spinning his out a few times. I think that was a combination of drives being a little low and balance (weight a little forward).
Old 02-04-2009, 06:23 PM
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Paul M
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build


[/quote]

I ended up the the Dewalt cat and Fountain - think the "Unchained" Hunter is the only big build he has done that I dont have in the basement. That ended up going to Armand in Florida.
[/quote]


Wasn't sure, but kinda thought you had a little thing for large boats

Thanks for the info.

Sorry 5150 - didn't mean to high jack the thread. I'd take everything that Googly liked about that build though and use it. It was a beautiful boat. I know what you mean though - 3 grand for an engine is a little ridiculous.

Old 02-04-2009, 08:04 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Hey no worries Paul, as long as I'm learning stuff you guys can take this thread anywhere.

I came to a realization today. I have to get out of the "gotta make it faster" mode that I've been in for all these years. Cars, planes, bikes, boats.....it's all about how fast I could make them. I need to quit that and really focus on the build and handling of the boat. That being said though I don't want to pull this monster out of the back of the truck and have people see it and say holy crap and dunk it in the water and have them then say, awwwww. Looked good at least.

That's why I was shooting for the 50mph. That's a pretty respectable speed in my book for a boat that big. So you think it would be attainable with the inline stock twins Matt? Or eventually build them up a little to get to 50? Or should I completely ditch that idea and go for the single Quickdraws with no gearbox? Doing this of course without grenading any of the drives obviously!

If I do singles I'll do the QD 25's. If I do inlines it will probably be the stock setup like Matt suggested and build from there. I don't want to waste my time building an inline twin up if I'm never going to come close.

I'd love to do the QD inline 70 like Phil did but holy crap.....that 3k could go to my new supercharger for my car or something......I figure $1000 for the boat. $1000 for the gearbox and drives, and around that for the motor. Of course if it's the two 25's I'll be looking at $1600 which I'm good with if it gets me the results. But as Matt mentioned I'd rather spend $600-ish and start with the stock Zenoahs.

I did talk to Mitch at Quickdraw and although he's built himself an inline 50cc he's not planning on building them for the masses. *$*&#% ( Oh well. Worth a shot.

Matt can you give me any other pointers as far as what Phil did that worked on this hull? I have a crap load of questions but don't want to overload you. Here's a couple that are burning me though.

One tank or two for fuel? Or bags?
What were Phil's engine rails made out of kevlar?
Props rotating out or in?

So far I'm really really leaning towards an inline Zenoah. Twin cylinders, more torque, one pull start, one clutch......just makes more sense to me. I think I'll look into that. My hull won't be here until March-ish if the Dr is right with his estimates. We'll see there also.

I'm having some issues with my 3PK Futaba.....hence my 5th scale car on the blocks right now......so that will go and I'll be running a 4PK with this hull and a full compliment of Multiplex digital servos. So I think I have the radio stuff. And I have stickers designed and ready do either do a bright orange Mt. Dew Live Wire paint scheme.....or possible copy the Motley Crue themed cat and do a silver paint job.....we'll see on that.

Thanks again for the input guys. This forum rocks!
Mike

Old 02-05-2009, 12:43 AM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

My approach with the bigger boats is that 50mph would be great - but I rarely go after speed as a goal. To me the difference between a large sport model that does 60mph vs one that 50mph is the damage that will occur when it wipes out. More important for me that the boat be well performing and controlled. Top speed is something that is earned and can be worked toward once you have everything in place and working well. No matter the setup - there is always more speed waiting for you to find it.

An inline zenoah is a great starting point and remains very upgradable. Stock inlines are pushing monos as big as the 65" GTX as fast as mid 60's. Though they are more simple (single strut) setups and certainly smaller boats than the Hunter. But the inline is quite light and will definately liven up that big vee.

Hope he has changed his track record - but to date I am not sure the Dr has ever been right with his estimates.

Here are some build pics I received from Germany that may be of help - http://imageevent.com/justaddwata/mo...ipsfromgermany

The rails Phil used are PHENOLIC glass which is very rigid and dense. Easy enough to use and drills and machines well.

Fuel tanks - start with an IV bag until you get your balance right and then you can look at using a hard tank if of interest. IV bags are much easier to use in my opinion though do not have the bling of a metal tank - actually they have the bling of a plastic bag.

Phil had his props rotating in and it is common though I do not know that one better than the other (and easly changed - either rotate the gearbox and cables 180 degrees or switch the drives from left to right - 4 bolts and your done).

I have looked and asked full scale race teams and get differing responses as to benifits of in or out (rotation). I have even seen identical hulls running opposite. This full sized version of the hunter is rotating down though others present at the race were opposite - dont remember which boat came first though http://imageevent.com/justaddwata/20...ueracepitspics
Old 02-05-2009, 12:04 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

A little more food for thought - you could look at a motor like the Blata or Polini. They make between 10 and 12hp and have plenty of torque. They have been used in plenty of bugger builds and work fine with the gearbox and stern drives. You could also consider a clone motor which sell for a fraction of the price of the genuine. They are big motors but yours is a big boat

Here is a clip of an MHZ Showtime running the blata with what looks to be the same drive configuration you are considering - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR_pFo-HkcA.
Old 02-05-2009, 01:11 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Matt,
Dang more good info there Matt thanks! Although the video didn't come through. I like the idea of the Blata or Polini but does anyone else sell them other than the dr? I'm really trying to eliminate him from the picture in anything other than the hull here......just seems like he's a trainwreck waiting to happen and I don't want to have to count on him for anything major. I'm just hoping he pulls through on the hull.

What do you think a modified inline would pull for hp? I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone. I think I'm still leaning towards that direction. I like the simplicity of one big vs two smaller. I think the inline would sound pretty good as well. And just be a cleaner install. I really like how Phil did his. I'm going to try to give mine the same justice as he did.

Thanks for the info on the props. One of the guys here who used to race boats say that having the props rotate in seems to want to lift the hull a little and is better for speed where having them rotate outwards is better for turning and cornering. But that was on a cat......not sure if that's the same for r/c or for a vee. I'll think I'll make them go in either way.

Ok, so I'm going to hit this thread with some more questions I have. Mostly small ones.

As far as mounting the drives and trim tab. I heard the tabs go about 1/4" above the bottom of the transom? And I have no idea on the drives to be completely honest. Maybe it'll fall into place when I have them here with the hull?

I'm also assuming the gearbox is just mounted in the frame rails?

And I noticed in the pics that Phil broke a steering rod! Holy crap! That's some torque! What thickness did he upgrade to in order to solve that?


I'd also like to learn more on props. That's a complete ninja art to me. I see some of the big boats run 5 and 6 blades. Do we not use that many just because they aren't as available? Or not as efficient? What performance changes are there in a 2 vs 3 blade?

Ok, off to make stickers.....I have about 1000 to make before Friday so I have to get some Dew first!

Mike
Old 02-05-2009, 01:18 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Also on the trim tabs.....on some I see them mounted at the same angle as the hull vee bottom. Others in some of the race pics Matt has show the tabs mounted straight with no angle.(On The Chip boat) The latter of the two doesn't make sense to me really but I guess those guys would know what they are doing.....

Mike
Old 02-05-2009, 06:04 PM
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Well, I just couldn't hold out anymore...

I did not build this boat (I know, I know) I bought it RTR from MHZ. I have been very happy so far but trying to find the right props is the fun part, RIGHT?! (JAW is proving to be much help here as well THANKS) It is a little smaller than you are talking (60" MHZ Apache) but close none-the-less. I decided to go with a big single cylinder engine (Blata) so I didn't have to fuss with tuning two carbs, etc. It has a gear boax and twin C/R S6 drives from you know who. It is not a speed-demon but is a blast to drive and I am all about the scale-ness of the drives. So....

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Old 02-05-2009, 06:15 PM
  #25  
5150Cat
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Medford OR CA
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Default RE: Hunter Twin Build

Very nice! I like it! (Although the hull need some serious stickers!)

How do you like the engine? That's my biggest hang up although I'm pretty sure it's going to be an inline twin.

Do you know what you are getting for speeds? Rough estimate?

Thanks for sharing. And yes, justaddwata is the sinsai of boats on here. Dude is wicked smart with boat info!

Mike

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