piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

Looking for some input here. Ideas have been floated about including some kind of claiming clause in the stock RTR rules. For those not familiar with such a concept, here's a brief overview. In some other competetive events the rules define a certain engine, or perhaps set an upper limit on the price of an engine, and require that the engine remain stock. Recognizing that some people might be tempted to "enhance" the inside of the engine to improve performance, they also have a rule that says one competitor's engine can be "claimed" by another competitor at the end of the competition for a certain price. For example, the rules might set a maximum engine price of $85 and then say anyone's engine is subject to being claimed for $95. This gives a bit of extra $ for the person who gives up the engine, but discourages spending lots of time or $ on the internals of the engine.

The same thing could also be done for the entire RTR boat, perhaps less the radio equipment if it's not the original.

So, here are a few questions, I'd be interested in seeing how people vote and if you have some thoughts on the concept, post away...

misshydro

If it's letting us,the proboats Miss Bud style hull to dumped the junk.15 to put in the aquacraft.18?-them I'm game for that rule!! It give us,the proboat guys and girls an even playing field with the Miss vegas!!But if you say price then theres other.18s that are under 85-95 that crank out more power then the aquacraft.18.One is the Chang Yang.18 can crank out up to 40.000 rpms!! Team Infinity.18 and there some car motor to that can crank out those R's to for that price range!

mopartybob

Miss H,I think chuck meant that if you agree to the claim rule for engine only,that means if you won the race,another competetor could buy your "kung poo'ed" engine,as terms of the race, or "going for pink slips" so to speak....[:-] ,with the loser actually winning your engine,boat,or both......[:-],It's meant to discourage a a a a a c-h-e-a-t-i-n-g.......[:@] ,I believe in a prestegious event it would be a good rule,but for a local floating crap shoot....nnnaaaaahhhhhhh..[:-]

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

The problem is that the current claiming rule says that you'd have to pay retail price for the engine plus 25%. I just found this on page H-10 of the IMPBA rule book.
When you think that nobody in their right mind pays retail for an engine then you add the extra 25% on top of that, an engine with just a few mods colud be let go and the previous owner could come out bucks ahead.

mopartybob

GASP...[X(],You mean someone COULD benefit from ...cheating...[:-],I think a lesser payout or none would be better served.....[:-] In the infinite wisdom of the "rule maker's", this page 10\h of IMPBA's book should be reviewed for amendment,as the current pro's n cons of the hobby are drastically evolving along with the technology\skills by the hobbyist using a dremel tool and a 40.00 dollar e-bay engine.....[:-]

cmiller73

Why not make it to where Comp A can make a dispute against Comp B for a flat charge and not based on engine prices. Kinda the same but not "buying" Comp B's engine.
We had this sortof thing going on in motocross.

1. Comp A makes a claim to race directors, he pays a predetermined "x" amount of dollars for teardown and reassembly, including any parts that may get damaged in the process. which is not based on the price of the engine.

2. The engine is torn down and found to be in specs, not modded one bit. Comp B gets the claim money for all his hard earned time and non reusable parts that need to be replaced.

3. If the motor is found to be modded, Comp A got his claim/dispute money back and Comp B was denied all winnings and disqualified from the event.

The only drawback to this, race officials need to know virtually every motor spec and have this information on hand.

My 1 cents.

Jerry Dunlap

Just my opinion, but adding a "Claimer Clause" to what is intended to be an entry level class defeats the main purpose - "Bring in new blood." The reason many of us in District 8 are racing RTR Sport 18 Hydro is because it's fun racing them basically stock. Anyone needing an "Engine Edge" to win in a RTR Class needs to move up to a traditional racing class ASAP.

JD

330T

chuck i raced 1/8 mile dirt track "bomer" class and we have a $250 engine, then i ran in the great lakes silver cup in a preformance class and that had a $500 per prop clame.

Why not do one or the other? the whole boat idea i dont like

but jerry had a good point..

gooycheese

I agree with Jerry, If you want a "race boat" then buy a "race boat" don't get a RTR. I do think they should have a RTR race what ya got class. My RTR TC31 isn't stock, according to the IMPBA rules I was reading the only thing that can be change on a RTR boat is a prop and still be considered stock. A class that would allow anything you can do to the boat and still keep original engine would be nice or have a $125 limit on engine or so, I don't think any RTR has an engine more than $125? Ya know take the stock boat and do what ever you can to engine and what ever you can bolt on to upgrade. I have done some slight mods to riding surface of my RTR is that considered still stock hull? I would say NO, but I don't claim my boat is stock. I do plan on letting my TC31 race some riggers this summer since I cant race it in any other class, will be like a dump truck racing against Indy Cars!!


Paul

mopartybob

I think this rule is to honor the spirit of "fair play" by keeping those unscrupulous few wanting to cheat with their "ringer's" outside the fence of the stock class and in the mod class where they belong,less forfeit their engine and respect to those who expose them as such......CHEATERS...[:-]

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

Just for the heck of it, I checked the Tower Hobbies web site to see what the retail cost is on an Aquactraft .18 . They show only the current price, not the retail cost that I could find.
Claiming an entire boat or one witout the radio system or other parts allowed could be a nightmare to figure out also. If a boat had a retail price of say $499.95 but the street price is only $279.95 then adding the 25% on top of the just under $500.00 you'd have to pay $625.00 with a complete boat.
I'd like to see a claimer rule but it would certainly have to be different from what the current rules are. with the wrong rule, say only street price, the one losing their engine would have to replace it so shipping, COD and possibly sales tax would have to be included.
Somebody that has done their homework in getting the right fuel, mixture, prop, at the start line when the clock hits zero in lane one, etc. could be unfairly punished.

gooycheese

If ya Cheat ya DON'T Win, YOU LOSE !!!

Grimracer

Ron

I wrote a proposal a few years ago to remove the engine claim rule. Your book is not updated as it is now gone.

Engine claim in a RTR class.. Does this really make since.. ask yourselves. I dont think so.. thats just me..

Grim

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

True Mike. My book pages are dated 2002.

mopartybob

i BELIEVE THE RULE SHOULD BE RE-INSTATED,and applied only to the RTR class,as the hobby evolves,so should the rules for this class,I understand why it was omitted in the first place as too many variables came into play, but with RTR's,you run EITHER a 15 or an 18,not much to figger out there......[:-]

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

As thew RTR classes evolve, we're going to see different sized boats coming from the manufacturers. Right now we've seen everything from .10 on up and this isn't even touching the gas classes.
We have to look at the entire field, not just the .15's and .18's as there are more than just two players in this game.

gooycheese

I have a RTR TC31 with a dynamite .32 engine and I am willing to bet there are as many people with TC31 and SW36 as there are Vegas owners.



Paul



If ya don't have your honer then what do ya got?

Ron Olson

My Feedback: (1)

Paul, let's take your boat for a minute as an example. The engine claim rule only covers the engine itself, nothing else. Let's say that you took a few minutes to port match your header yet did nothing else internally or externally to the engine. You can see enough boost in the output to make a difference between winning and losing. Should you have to lose your engine and be without one because you have to wait for a new one to arrive then go through the whole process of breaking it in?

I'm trying to look at both sides of the coin here.

mopartybob

and while he's waiting for a new engine he can admire that trophy on the shelf,NO OFFENSE Paul,I know we are just speaking it terms here and yes i was speaking in limited terms regarding engine size,apologies, but the expression of my sober mind has taken control of me....please fill in the blanks as needed....[:-]

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

I'm still at work, so I can't respond to every comment yet. However, for discussion purposes, throw out the old claim rule. It was so flawed it's not worth discussing. Also, Ron's right, there's more than just .15s and .18s in this discussion. Ideally, whatever gets implemented can be made to work for the majority of RTRs (whatever that means).

The whole point to the RTR work is to find ways to let people who bought RTRs at hobby shops, online, or wherever, get together at the pond for some racing. Hopefully, we can get rules in place that ensure FAIR competition can occur and significantly limit the possibility of someone buying their way into the winners circle (at least in the stock class).

330T

Rons comments have changed my opinion on this issue.

I'm not for a clam rule, the tear down rule i've always though was a good idea for a stock class

Sean Bowf

I think the teardown rule would be a nightmare. As mentioned earlier, someone would need to know what the inside of every type of engine is supposed to look like. Or, better yet, the challanger would need to tear his engine down for an example to compare against.

I think some folks are missing the point on this. I agree, that if someone had to mod their engine to try to win a "stock RTR" race...then anything they did win would truly be a hollow win. But that is not the point. The point is that someone WILL do this. I don't see this rule being applied to anything but "stock RTR," since mods are legal in the other classes.

As to the price that needs to be paid for the engine, if that method is used...I don't think 10% is enough. Taking the MV as an example...a new engine is $85 from tower (I have no idea what MSRP is, so I will just use this figure). So I get $93.50 for the engine?? I burned A LOT more than $8.50 in fuel during break-in...not even taking into account the time I spent tuning the fuel mixture to where it needs to be, shipping, etc. To me, it would be worth the $8.50 more I had to pay for the engine just to get one from someone that I know is broke in, setup correctly, and just won a race.

And as some pointed out, unless you are buying from the LHS, no one pays MSRP. Almost seems like 125% of the "normal" online price would be more reasonable.

I can see that SOMETHING needs to be done to deter folks from "cheating"...just not sure what...or if a good answer can be found.

As to the boat claiming...what does anyone foresee that someone might do to their boat that would not be visually apparant?? This also goes back to time, and what it is worth. If we are allowed to sand our hulls in the stock RTR class (are we?), then the time and material spent doing this to the hull is worth a lot more than 10% of the cost of the boat.

Just 2 cents from a noob...

Sean

misshydro

Just a stupped question or not?! Why not let the proboat or anyother boats run the vegas motor/aquacraft.18 to level the playing field with the vegas and proboat.[&:]

Sean Bowf

MH, I don't think that is the point of the discussion...but I would see no problem at all with a proboat running the Aquacraft .18 in a "stock RTR" class against MVs.

I think that would be up to the person who organizes the race...

Sean

Sean Bowf

Ummm...not sure what happened...guess I hit the quote button when trying to edit my last mesage..