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Saito 100 Tach Readings: Please Post

Old 09-25-2007, 05:30 AM
  #51  
liquid_TR
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

Ive never tried 16X5 on a saito 100; or 16X6 for that matter. I guess putting a heavy 16" prop would overload the engine a little. Spool up may take longer, but hey; u never know.

Maybe a light wooden prop might do the trick.
Old 09-25-2007, 01:23 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

It´s a wooden zinger prop, so I´ll keep my fingers crossed!
Old 10-08-2007, 07:08 PM
  #53  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

My Saito 1.00 as it is now;

Fuel = Wildcat 15% with 4oz castor added (it was recommended by other 4 cycle users)
Prop = APC 15X6

the engine now has about 3/4 gallon through it, but not flown yet. (and maybe never - see below)

Idle RPM ~ 2200 to 2300
Max usable RPM ~ 9000

This engine was bought brand new and shook very badly (enough that I was concerned about it literally shaking the plane apart), would not rev up like my Saito 1.20 will rev with its APC 17X6, and had a max RPM of about 8500 with a usable max RPM of about 8000.

I pulled the cam and set the timing. Now, it shakes less - but seems to me to still be REALLY low on the power needed to turn the APC 15X6 prop as it should.

I called Horizon Hobbies tech service and he says the RPMs listed above (2200 to 2300 - 9000) sound normal to him. He suggested 30% heli fuel, which costs more than I want to pay

However most of the figures I have seen in this thread for a similar combination are higher - some significantly higher.

I am very dissatisfied with this engine, and unless I can find some way (other than the 30% fuel idea) to get it to run right, this will be my last Saito. And probably my last 4 cycle model airplane engine.

I have already tried all the high and low speed needle tweaking - and with a tach. (not everything can be fixed by turning needles)

Anyone tried changing the timing (maybe advanced a tooth) to get one of these to run right?

Any suggestions - other than scrap it as expensive junk?[]

edited for;

I forgot to include,
Valve lash is set at 0.0015
Old 10-08-2007, 11:04 PM
  #54  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

I ran a brand new one for the first time last night. I Will agree with you, that it shook like a paint mixer untill I got the low speed dialed in. After 1/2 gallon of WC 10% w/3 oz's of caster I was getting 9,500 peaked and a constant 9,200 with a APC 14-6. It smoothed out quite a bit after the low speed was leaned.

I also have a Brand New 1.25 in the BOX, and I saito 1.50 on the way off that auction website But after last night I am thinking of selling the saito's and going back to YS. FYI, I just in the last couple months broke in two Magnum .91's that ran 100% better out of the Box and the one that I am running 20-20 in is turning 10,300-10,400 peaked with a APC 14-6, and I richen that one back to 9,900-10,000 for flying.
Old 10-09-2007, 02:22 PM
  #55  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100


ORIGINAL: MOTORMAN37

I ran a brand new one for the first time last night. I Will agree with you, that it shook like a paint mixer untill I got the low speed dialed in. After 1/2 gallon of WC 10% w/3 oz's of caster I was getting 9,500 peaked and a constant 9,200 with a APC 14-6. It smoothed out quite a bit after the low speed was leaned.

I also have a Brand New 1.25 in the BOX, and I saito 1.50 on the way off that auction website But after last night I am thinking of selling the saito's and going back to YS. FYI, I just in the last couple months broke in two Magnum .91's that ran 100% better out of the Box and the one that I am running 20-20 in is turning 10,300-10,400 peaked with a APC 14-6, and I richen that one back to 9,900-10,000 for flying.
That's some good info. Thanks[sm=thumbup.gif]

I was under the impression that Saito engines were 'top of the line' engines. I guess they are just very high priced engines that the quality and consistency of performance from engine to engine is not very good on. It seems to be "the luck of the draw" as to if you get a good one or not.

The guy I talked to at Horizon Hobbies, while being very nice and polite answering questions, did not offer to make the engine right or replace it - since it is obviously defective even though he says it sounds normal. If this is normal for a Saito, then my Saito 1.20 must be abnormal, in that it runs smooth.

The only conclusion I can come to, after thinking about it, is that there have been so many Saito "shakers" sold that they can't afford to replace them when so many are bad. So the modeler is left with a bad engine and no recourse. (of course there will be those that jump in saying "mine is good" )



Are the Magnum .91s that you mentioned 4 cycle or 2 cycle engines?
Old 10-09-2007, 08:30 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

My Saito 1.25 is a pretty good engine. It is the only one that I've seen that shook as badly as it did during break in. It has smoothedy out nicely with about 1/2 gallon so far. Rich settings and the break in during the first tanks of fuel is what made it shake.

I would suggest going to a 14" prop on the 1.00. Saitos don't tune like an OS engine. And, you shouldn't look for too much smoke, or it's too rich. They will shake when too rich and power will be way down. There is a lot of info in the Saito Club thread in Glow Engines. Also, you can ask about it there and probably find the answer if tuning isn't the problem her, and the 15x6 prop. That's what I'm using on the 1.25 for around 9400 RPM at the moment on 15%.

Those guys at Horizon sometimes don't take the time to find out what your problem is. It doesn't mean your engine suffers in quality. Most of the time, it is tuning. The engine will run when the cam is one tooth off. You may already know how to set the cam, but here is the way in case you set it a tooth off. The dot on the cam gear goes to the 6 oclock position at TDC of the intake stroke. I use either an exacto knife blade to hold it, or I turn a push rod upside down to trap a gear to hold it from the top of the cam housing. I've not heard of a true brand new engine coming with the cam out of setting.

Set your valve clearances. This is very important, especially with that much fuel run through it for break in.

Run the engine WOT and peak the high speed needle. Don't back off of it. Make sure it is peaked. I had one Saito that had a dead spot for about 3/4 of a turn before it started leaning out even more to peak. Leave it peaked and check your low speed transition. If good, then lean it 1/8 turn and slowly check transition. If good, check it by advancing the throttle quicker. If good, repeat until the engine seems to sag or wheeze on transition. Richen it about 1/8 turn minimum and check a couple of times. Then, go back and repeak the HS, and back off around 400 RPM.

You should be set if the cam gear is set right and you have the needles set right. It shouldn't vibrate after this with that much fuel burned through it unless the prop is out of balance.

You may need to tweak your tuning when you get it in a plane. The quality of these engines are quite good. They are sometimes a bit different in tuning than a lot of other engines.
Old 10-10-2007, 06:45 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100


ORIGINAL: blw

My Saito 1.25 is a pretty good engine. It is the only one that I've seen that shook as badly as it did during break in. It has smoothedy out nicely with about 1/2 gallon so far. Rich settings and the break in during the first tanks of fuel is what made it shake.

I would suggest going to a 14" prop on the 1.00. Saitos don't tune like an OS engine. And, you shouldn't look for too much smoke, or it's too rich. They will shake when too rich and power will be way down. There is a lot of info in the Saito Club thread in Glow Engines. Also, you can ask about it there and probably find the answer if tuning isn't the problem her, and the 15x6 prop. That's what I'm using on the 1.25 for around 9400 RPM at the moment on 15%.

Those guys at Horizon sometimes don't take the time to find out what your problem is. It doesn't mean your engine suffers in quality. Most of the time, it is tuning. The engine will run when the cam is one tooth off. You may already know how to set the cam, but here is the way in case you set it a tooth off. The dot on the cam gear goes to the 6 oclock position at TDC of the intake stroke. I use either an exacto knife blade to hold it, or I turn a push rod upside down to trap a gear to hold it from the top of the cam housing. I've not heard of a true brand new engine coming with the cam out of setting.

Set your valve clearances. This is very important, especially with that much fuel run through it for break in.

Run the engine WOT and peak the high speed needle. Don't back off of it. Make sure it is peaked. I had one Saito that had a dead spot for about 3/4 of a turn before it started leaning out even more to peak. Leave it peaked and check your low speed transition. If good, then lean it 1/8 turn and slowly check transition. If good, check it by advancing the throttle quicker. If good, repeat until the engine seems to sag or wheeze on transition. Richen it about 1/8 turn minimum and check a couple of times. Then, go back and repeak the HS, and back off around 400 RPM.

You should be set if the cam gear is set right and you have the needles set right. It shouldn't vibrate after this with that much fuel burned through it unless the prop is out of balance.

You may need to tweak your tuning when you get it in a plane. The quality of these engines are quite good. They are sometimes a bit different in tuning than a lot of other engines.
Thank you for your reply and trying to help.[sm=thumbup.gif]

The engine was bought from the online hobby store, wholesaletrains.com. All I can say is it was supposed to be new. The order and price I paid was for a new one.

So it was ether new with the timing wrong or I was sold a used engine as being new. Ether way isn't good.

I will have to try the tuning you suggested. When I was setting the top end, I leaned it until it would no longer increase the rpm, then backed off 300-400 rpms. I assumed it had peaked and I didn't want to damage the engine by being too lean. Although, the situation you described could be part of the problem if it had not in fact reached peak.

When setting the low end - I got to a point where any movement ether in or out hurt the idle. The low speed needle seems to be very touchy at this point.

I don't have a suitable 14 inch prop. The only one I have being a 14X10 APC. I'm guessing you are saying to use a 14X6 or 14X7, is that right? Taking into consideration the high idle speed?

You mentioned to not look for too much smoke. As it is set now - when at idle or running wide open, there isn't much smoke, not like a 2 stroke. But when it is running up from idle to wide open, there is a lot of smoke. But at least it isn't stumbling through the transition like it did before.

The low power, while being a problem, maybe could be lived with, but the shaking is the thing that makes me doubt its usability the most. If you have been around this hobby for a few years, you know that vibration is an enemy and can not only shake glue joints apart, but can kill your radio. So, it isn't to be taken lightly. It's a serious problem.

And that brings me to prop balancing. The best balancer that I have found is the Top Flite magnetic balancer. And that's what I now use for all my prop balancing. It takes a bit of time, but I feel that the time and effort spent here should pay off in a smoother running engine and protect my radio and plane.

But this 100 shakes, and shakes badly at mid range, even with all I've tried so far, and the mid range is probably where it would be flown most of the time. And that shouldn't be the case with a quality product. Nor should a person be expected to have to deal with this kind of problem after paying the price asked for a Saito.

The problem should not even exist in any engine in this price range. (or any engine sold for that matter)

Anyway .... For now, it looks like I have an engine that may not be usable .... but I will try the mixture adjustments you suggested ... I might try the prop later, when I put in another order ...... AND THANKS AGAIN!

Almost forgot,
About the valves .... the valve lash is set at 0.0015 with a known good quality feeler gage made years ago when quality things were made to high quality standards. (couldn't resist)
Old 12-02-2007, 02:49 PM
  #58  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

Satio 100
Apc 14x6
CY 30%/23% heli fuel
10,500 rpm
Old 01-23-2008, 03:54 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

are you setting your valves hot or cold. remember that things are gonna expand when it is warmed up. if your valve are not closing all the way when it is warmed up, this could cause your shaking.
Old 12-15-2008, 12:14 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

APC 14X8 Prop
Wild Cat 2/4 stoke fuel 15%
After 3rd tank 9600RPM peak
Old 05-23-2009, 10:07 PM
  #61  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

I thought all 4 strokes had a  smoke trail.  I got a hell of smoke trail when taxiing and at low rpm but very little at high rpm.  Mine shakes so bad I can't keep the motor mount screws on the plane no matter how much locktite I use.  I will try and lean the bottom cause it's rough and very smokey.
Old 05-24-2009, 04:50 AM
  #62  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

mgrande11,

You are still very rich. When properly tuned, there is not much smoke at all. The smoke and the vibration indicate a very rich setting. Peak your high side and then adjust the low 1/8 turn at a time until a good transition and idle is achieved. Then readjust the high side and richin it to 200-300 below peak. You should notice a big difference.

Jim

Note: I assume you have gone through the break in procedure.
Old 05-24-2009, 07:47 AM
  #63  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

Yes RC specialties the engine has been broken in and has 1 1/2 gallon of fuel run thru it.  The guys at the field all said that I had to have a smoke trail but everytime I richened for smoke she became very sluggish.  I gave up a leaned to a peak rpm of 9900 and backed off to 9500.  At that setting there is a very slight smoke trail.  I'm running omega 15%.  I can't idle below 3900 rpm.
Old 05-24-2009, 08:55 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

mgrande11,

You did not mention the prop size. I run an APC 14x8 on my 1.00's and peak about 9500 and back down at least 200-300. Richening off peak 400 rpm will keep it well lubed for awhile as it continues to break in. The low size is still too rich. This is why it won't idle lower. When adjusting/leaning the low side, you will notice an rpm increase. Lower the idle rpm as you go. I have found the best reliable idle to be around 2200-2300 rpm. Go with very small adjustments checking the transition. If it stumbles, it is too rich. If it quits, it is too lean. When the low side is set readjust the high side.

Note: The engine will unload in the air and run at a higher rpm.

Jim
Old 05-24-2009, 11:51 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

I run a MA 15x6 on a P-47 and running 15% omega, as I said I'm getting 9500 rpm.  Another problem I'm having is the engine sometimes starts in reverse.  Is this because the bottom is too rich?
Old 05-25-2009, 04:55 AM
  #66  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

Yes, it will cause the engine to run in reverse.
Old 05-26-2009, 12:35 AM
  #67  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

APC 15x4W
CY 30/23% heli
10,230
idle- 1600
Old 07-06-2009, 12:21 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

My saito 100 with a APC 15x6 only turns 8500rpm on 15% power master. Another at our club only turns 9100 with an MAS 15x6.

I've been though the ring, valves, valve lash, camshaft timing, new bearings and everything else I can think of and it just won't go faster than that. If I could get to 9000 it would perform that much better. Anyone have any thoughts on how to fix it?

I'm at sea level.

schu
Old 07-06-2009, 05:20 AM
  #69  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

The 15x6 APC is too much prop. Try a 14x8 APC. Make sure your low and high side mixtures are properly set and she should do about 9400 ready to fly.

Jim
Old 07-06-2009, 11:22 AM
  #70  
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Default RE: Brand new Saito 100

14x8 APC for a 3d profile? I doubt that would work very well.

What about a 15x4w?

schu

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