Midwest Giles G-202
10-26-2004, 03:53 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Athens, GREECE
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Midwest Giles G-202
Hi Mike,
I have MW Giles G202 designed by you, I have flown it about 10 times not more. It is a nice plane for precision stuff but when you try a bit of hot dogging it snaps violently with elvator up or down depending on its position. How can I really improve this? What kind of modifcations would be required to fly 3D with this plane? The control throws given in the manual are not enough for 3D I think, the issue here is that my throws can not be much larger than those as the hinges do not permit that. It is a very nice plane though I attach a photo.
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Nik
I have MW Giles G202 designed by you, I have flown it about 10 times not more. It is a nice plane for precision stuff but when you try a bit of hot dogging it snaps violently with elvator up or down depending on its position. How can I really improve this? What kind of modifcations would be required to fly 3D with this plane? The control throws given in the manual are not enough for 3D I think, the issue here is that my throws can not be much larger than those as the hinges do not permit that. It is a very nice plane though I attach a photo.
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Nik
10-26-2004, 05:09 PM
#2
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 2,250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Pretty model! Thats a long time ago and it was done just before I started wxperimenting with 3D. I remember the Giles tended to come out heavy, so tha isnt helping much. Also if you have much less the 35 degrees elevator, that isnt helping. I'd do what you have to to get 40 degrees elevator and try spoilerons. The latter helped my 42% version of the Giles quite a lot in high alpha flight.
10-27-2004, 01:31 AM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Athens, GREECE
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Thanks Mike,
What about the high speed stall and thus violent snap when I pull up? How can I correct that??
Regards,
Nik
What about the high speed stall and thus violent snap when I pull up? How can I correct that??
Regards,
Nik
10-27-2004, 09:03 AM
#4
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 2,250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
How much does it weigh? I'd do a couple o things. First, put it on a diet. Get as much weight out of it as possible. Secondly, check the wing panels to be sure there is no twist in them. TE twisted down toward the tip will promote a tip stall.
12-26-2004, 09:23 PM
#5
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
I've built the Midwest Extra and am currently building the Giles that Mike designed years ago.
The words Giles and 3D were never meant to be said in the same sentence. The full scale Giles was designed as a pattern plane and was never meant to be a radical 3D machine. Sure, there are MODELS that arent' true to scale and they will 3D, but I challenge anyone to find a pic of a full scale Giles doing a torqueroll or a harrier.
I built the Extra according to the plans and it came out at 17.25 pounds with a 54cc gasser. I got mad and never flew it. Sold the airframe to a guy in Ohio. It would have been a nice plane at sea level, but in Denver at 6000' that weight was just unacceptable.
Mike Hurley told me to lighten the heck out of it. He gave me an idea whereby the only parts of the fuse that I would use would be the firewall area and the sides to establish the profile and wing saddle. He told me to scrap all the rest of the fuse and build formers from balsa.
It was a good idea, and it would have worked, but I didn't want to redesign the kit- so I built it stock and got a pig.
I learned a lesson there, and the Giles has been tackled with an almost crazy attention to weight.
I scrapped ALL the supplied sheeting in the kit and replaced it all with Contest Grade balsa. When the CG Balsa showed up at my front door- I got it all together and weighed it along side the stock supplied balsa. I got a weight savings of 9oz.
I've sheeted the LE and TE of the wings with the CG Balsa. I've sheeted my horizontal stab and my vertical fin with the CG Balsa. Also- with ther design of the ailerons-- I've sheeted the ailerons with the CG Balsa too.
I replaced the spruce spars with heavy balsa and CF tape laminated to both top and bottom of the spars. Saved about 3-4oz.
I replaced the turtledeck sheeting with the CG Balsa, instead of the 1/32" ply. Saved 2oz.
I replaced the fron hatch 1/32" ply sheeting with CG Balsa too. Saved between 1-2oz.
I bought CF landing gear. Saved 5oz.
I bought fiberglass cowl and wheelpants for it. Saved about 6oz.
Total savings is between 25-27oz. Not bad for about $100 investment in extra stuff. (LG, Cowl, wheelpants, CG Balsa)
The plane is still being framed.
I tried to buy Contest Grade Balsa for the sticks in the elevators, stab, rudder, and fin, but I couldn't find a supplier for those sticks. I was only able to find a supplier for CG Balsa in the sheeting, but not the sticks.
I drilled 3/4" holes in the plywood former that makes the rear of the cockpit------the front of the turtledeck.
I drilled 3/4" holes in the sides of the fuse under the front hatch area. I didn't want to drill holes in the motorbox-- because then I would have had to cover it to keep air out. Didn't seam worth it.
I replaced the rear hatch former. It's plywood, and wasn't necessary. I replaced it with 3/32" balsa. It'll be covered by the canopy when the model is finished, so I didn't see a need for ply under that area. The fuse is plenty strong enough to hold together without that piece of ply.
I took a dremel and a sanding drum to the rest of the fuse. Mostly in the TAIL section behind the wing saddle. I don't want it to come out tail heavy. I'm trying to remove as much unneeded weight in the tail as possible. Nose-heavy planes are EASY to fix. Tail-heavy is NOT easy to fix. I just enlarged all the lightening holes with my dremel. The piece of ply under the turtledeck and on the top of the fuse is an area where i really went to work with the dremel. It's a BIG piece of ply and it's not really necessary that it be so rigid under the turtledeck. I dremeled it down to about 1/8" all around the holes. I also dremeled the sides of the fuse behind the wing saddle.
I've increased the cord of the ailerons by about 15%. I just cut a new notch in the ribs where the 1/8x1/4 balsa stringers are glued in place. It was quite a bit of work, but I got big ailerons now. For 3D work, your better off to have a large control surface and only deflect it as much as you need----rather than a small control surface and trying to deflect it to max every time and stress the hinges and servos.
I've increased the cord of the elevators by 1". Horizontal stab is stock.
I've increased the cord of my rudder by 3/4". The Giles already has a very powerfull rudder- so I didn't think a radical change in cord was necessary.
I plan to fly this plane in IMAC and simple aerobatics. It's not a 3D plane. I may try some hovering with it, I guess. It might do some simple 3D with the mods I've done and the weight I've saved, but I'm not really building it for that. It's being built for basic IMAC maneuvers. If I can manage to throw it around and do mild 3D with it-- then great. But, I just want a smooth, light flier for IMAC.
I'm torn on the engine. I'd like to run a gasser on it, but I know it will just bring the weight back up and make it fly heavy.
I guess I'm stuck with glow on this one. I'll probably try and get the biggest and lightest engine I can stuff in it and make it balance without any lead. I've designed the plane with dual elevator servos in the tail and the rudder servo is still up in the air. Rudder servo location will be determined after it's almost comeplete. I'll use the rudder servo and my engine to balance it.
Since I'll be flying it at high altude, I'll be looking for a pretty big engine. The Saito 180 is pretty light, but I'm not a big 4-stroke fan. I would like to stuff a Moki 2.10 in the nose, but don't know if it'll fit.
Servos will be JR 9011 mid size coreless. They are light and have 60oz. torque and a coreless motor. I'll use those on the elevators and ailerons. I've got a JR Matchbox for the elevator servos. I've got a 9411 for the rudder and I'll use a little 3021 for my throttle. Battery will be 6V, metal hydride, and probably around 1200mah.
I'm going for as light as I can get it without sacrificing any strength.
I've uploaded a few pics of the Midwest Extra 300S. It turned out nice, but I wish it'd been 2 pounds lighter.
The words Giles and 3D were never meant to be said in the same sentence. The full scale Giles was designed as a pattern plane and was never meant to be a radical 3D machine. Sure, there are MODELS that arent' true to scale and they will 3D, but I challenge anyone to find a pic of a full scale Giles doing a torqueroll or a harrier.
I built the Extra according to the plans and it came out at 17.25 pounds with a 54cc gasser. I got mad and never flew it. Sold the airframe to a guy in Ohio. It would have been a nice plane at sea level, but in Denver at 6000' that weight was just unacceptable.
Mike Hurley told me to lighten the heck out of it. He gave me an idea whereby the only parts of the fuse that I would use would be the firewall area and the sides to establish the profile and wing saddle. He told me to scrap all the rest of the fuse and build formers from balsa.
It was a good idea, and it would have worked, but I didn't want to redesign the kit- so I built it stock and got a pig.
I learned a lesson there, and the Giles has been tackled with an almost crazy attention to weight.
I scrapped ALL the supplied sheeting in the kit and replaced it all with Contest Grade balsa. When the CG Balsa showed up at my front door- I got it all together and weighed it along side the stock supplied balsa. I got a weight savings of 9oz.
I've sheeted the LE and TE of the wings with the CG Balsa. I've sheeted my horizontal stab and my vertical fin with the CG Balsa. Also- with ther design of the ailerons-- I've sheeted the ailerons with the CG Balsa too.
I replaced the spruce spars with heavy balsa and CF tape laminated to both top and bottom of the spars. Saved about 3-4oz.
I replaced the turtledeck sheeting with the CG Balsa, instead of the 1/32" ply. Saved 2oz.
I replaced the fron hatch 1/32" ply sheeting with CG Balsa too. Saved between 1-2oz.
I bought CF landing gear. Saved 5oz.
I bought fiberglass cowl and wheelpants for it. Saved about 6oz.
Total savings is between 25-27oz. Not bad for about $100 investment in extra stuff. (LG, Cowl, wheelpants, CG Balsa)
The plane is still being framed.
I tried to buy Contest Grade Balsa for the sticks in the elevators, stab, rudder, and fin, but I couldn't find a supplier for those sticks. I was only able to find a supplier for CG Balsa in the sheeting, but not the sticks.
I drilled 3/4" holes in the plywood former that makes the rear of the cockpit------the front of the turtledeck.
I drilled 3/4" holes in the sides of the fuse under the front hatch area. I didn't want to drill holes in the motorbox-- because then I would have had to cover it to keep air out. Didn't seam worth it.
I replaced the rear hatch former. It's plywood, and wasn't necessary. I replaced it with 3/32" balsa. It'll be covered by the canopy when the model is finished, so I didn't see a need for ply under that area. The fuse is plenty strong enough to hold together without that piece of ply.
I took a dremel and a sanding drum to the rest of the fuse. Mostly in the TAIL section behind the wing saddle. I don't want it to come out tail heavy. I'm trying to remove as much unneeded weight in the tail as possible. Nose-heavy planes are EASY to fix. Tail-heavy is NOT easy to fix. I just enlarged all the lightening holes with my dremel. The piece of ply under the turtledeck and on the top of the fuse is an area where i really went to work with the dremel. It's a BIG piece of ply and it's not really necessary that it be so rigid under the turtledeck. I dremeled it down to about 1/8" all around the holes. I also dremeled the sides of the fuse behind the wing saddle.
I've increased the cord of the ailerons by about 15%. I just cut a new notch in the ribs where the 1/8x1/4 balsa stringers are glued in place. It was quite a bit of work, but I got big ailerons now. For 3D work, your better off to have a large control surface and only deflect it as much as you need----rather than a small control surface and trying to deflect it to max every time and stress the hinges and servos.
I've increased the cord of the elevators by 1". Horizontal stab is stock.
I've increased the cord of my rudder by 3/4". The Giles already has a very powerfull rudder- so I didn't think a radical change in cord was necessary.
I plan to fly this plane in IMAC and simple aerobatics. It's not a 3D plane. I may try some hovering with it, I guess. It might do some simple 3D with the mods I've done and the weight I've saved, but I'm not really building it for that. It's being built for basic IMAC maneuvers. If I can manage to throw it around and do mild 3D with it-- then great. But, I just want a smooth, light flier for IMAC.
I'm torn on the engine. I'd like to run a gasser on it, but I know it will just bring the weight back up and make it fly heavy.
I guess I'm stuck with glow on this one. I'll probably try and get the biggest and lightest engine I can stuff in it and make it balance without any lead. I've designed the plane with dual elevator servos in the tail and the rudder servo is still up in the air. Rudder servo location will be determined after it's almost comeplete. I'll use the rudder servo and my engine to balance it.
Since I'll be flying it at high altude, I'll be looking for a pretty big engine. The Saito 180 is pretty light, but I'm not a big 4-stroke fan. I would like to stuff a Moki 2.10 in the nose, but don't know if it'll fit.
Servos will be JR 9011 mid size coreless. They are light and have 60oz. torque and a coreless motor. I'll use those on the elevators and ailerons. I've got a JR Matchbox for the elevator servos. I've got a 9411 for the rudder and I'll use a little 3021 for my throttle. Battery will be 6V, metal hydride, and probably around 1200mah.
I'm going for as light as I can get it without sacrificing any strength.
I've uploaded a few pics of the Midwest Extra 300S. It turned out nice, but I wish it'd been 2 pounds lighter.
05-05-2008, 07:45 AM
#6
My Feedback: (44)
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
I was doing some reasearch, I just bought the Midwest Giles g-202 and came across a thread where you hade made a lot of modifications to the kit, just wondering how much it weighed and how it flew after the mods. What engine did you use ?
Thank You
Thank You
05-05-2008, 11:55 AM
#7
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: newcastleKZN, SOUTH AFRICA
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
I've had a high speed stall with a few planes before and have learnt from full scale pilot why and how this happens
If you are getting a high speed stall it would mean that you are pulling too much up elevator at a high speed and because of this you are loosing air speed all of a sudden and the plane would then do a type of snap because of the plane being stalled.
It will still fly on afterwards because you most probably still have full throttle and this gives the plane air speed again after the high speed stall
To stop this try not pulling to much up elevator at a high speed so that the plane will still have air speed at all times.
A high speed stall can be dangerous low to the ground or even high up because sometimes the plane can stall and possibly go into a spin and sometimes you can not get a plane out of a spin
If you are getting a high speed stall it would mean that you are pulling too much up elevator at a high speed and because of this you are loosing air speed all of a sudden and the plane would then do a type of snap because of the plane being stalled.
It will still fly on afterwards because you most probably still have full throttle and this gives the plane air speed again after the high speed stall
To stop this try not pulling to much up elevator at a high speed so that the plane will still have air speed at all times.
A high speed stall can be dangerous low to the ground or even high up because sometimes the plane can stall and possibly go into a spin and sometimes you can not get a plane out of a spin
10-10-2008, 01:19 AM
#8
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Could any one help me get CAD for Giles G 202, 2 stroke 1.20. I have always scratch build and do not want to get into ARFs. The pleasure in scratch building is enormous. I do have full size plans, but it does not give individual ribs outline except for the root and R4 ribs. With the CAD would i be able to get actual size printout so i can shape the ribs? HELP.
Ramesh.
Ramesh.
01-27-2009, 01:36 PM
#9
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monee,
IL
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Gents.... I recently aquired this kit, Complete.... Less the manual....
Does anyone know where I could download and print it from? Would anyone be willing to scan and email it? Thank you in advance for your help...
Chip
Does anyone know where I could download and print it from? Would anyone be willing to scan and email it? Thank you in advance for your help...
Chip
11-06-2009, 04:55 PM
#11
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
ORIGINAL: chaz42075
Gents.... I recently aquired this kit, Complete.... Less the manual....
Does anyone know where I could download and print it from? Would anyone be willing to scan and email it? Thank you in advance for your help...
Chip
Gents.... I recently aquired this kit, Complete.... Less the manual....
Does anyone know where I could download and print it from? Would anyone be willing to scan and email it? Thank you in advance for your help...
Chip
Chip, I'm currently building one, and you are welcome to the manual, if you still need it, when I'm finished. I just live down the road from you here in Springpatch.
11-06-2009, 05:01 PM
#12
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monee,
IL
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Where is springpatch? Thanks for the offer. My buddy found the manual so I am in progress with it now. What are you going to use for power? I have a US41, too much?
Also, was there a box or bag of "ply" in there for the wing bolt mount and the control horn mounts? It wan't in with my kit so I have been making them by sandwiching smaller plywood and epoxy then sanding to fit the width. Keep in touch and post up pictures.... C
Also, was there a box or bag of "ply" in there for the wing bolt mount and the control horn mounts? It wan't in with my kit so I have been making them by sandwiching smaller plywood and epoxy then sanding to fit the width. Keep in touch and post up pictures.... C
11-07-2009, 12:22 PM
#13
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Chip,
Springpatch=Springfield.
I am planning on installing either a Y.S. 1.40 Sport or perhaps a Moki 1.80. I don't have either yet, but depending on what the fuse weighs, I'll buy accordingly.
Yes, there should have been a bag with a total of five 3/4" square by 3/8" thick aircraft ply blocks for the rudder (1) elevator(2) and two others I have yet to install. Also should be a rear wing bolt plate, and two front wing bolt plates. A few other odds and ends are in there too. I'll double check the bag tonight when I get home and post up here what all is in there.
She builds heavy, quickly. I built up the empennage as per the kit/manual, but I cut lightening holes in (skeletonized) the sheeting that covers the built-up structure of the stab and fin. I also did away with the hardwood stick in the stab and went with a hard balsa stick of the same size. I'm using wood glue (carpenter's glue) almost exclusively on this build. Time consuming, but a whole lot easier to sand off excess then CA or epoxy. I just last evening framed up the fuse. Goes quickly if you have all the sub assemblies done beforehand if using wood glue. I have yet to start the wing, but I plan on making changes there as well regarding the weight. I am just wanting a good sport flier without too many bad habits. I'll try to get some pics up since there seem to be a few of these being built lately.
Springpatch=Springfield.
I am planning on installing either a Y.S. 1.40 Sport or perhaps a Moki 1.80. I don't have either yet, but depending on what the fuse weighs, I'll buy accordingly.
Yes, there should have been a bag with a total of five 3/4" square by 3/8" thick aircraft ply blocks for the rudder (1) elevator(2) and two others I have yet to install. Also should be a rear wing bolt plate, and two front wing bolt plates. A few other odds and ends are in there too. I'll double check the bag tonight when I get home and post up here what all is in there.
She builds heavy, quickly. I built up the empennage as per the kit/manual, but I cut lightening holes in (skeletonized) the sheeting that covers the built-up structure of the stab and fin. I also did away with the hardwood stick in the stab and went with a hard balsa stick of the same size. I'm using wood glue (carpenter's glue) almost exclusively on this build. Time consuming, but a whole lot easier to sand off excess then CA or epoxy. I just last evening framed up the fuse. Goes quickly if you have all the sub assemblies done beforehand if using wood glue. I have yet to start the wing, but I plan on making changes there as well regarding the weight. I am just wanting a good sport flier without too many bad habits. I'll try to get some pics up since there seem to be a few of these being built lately.
11-08-2009, 12:04 AM
#14
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
I'll have to get pictures some other time, but the ply bag contains the following:
(5) Birch ply horn blocks
(2) Shaped Basswood Front Wing Bolt Block roughly 1-7/32" x 1-1/2" x 2-3/32"
(2) Tapered Balsa Rear Wing Bolt Block 19/32 x 1-29/32 x 4-1/16
(4) Tapered Basswood Spar Widener (Replacing these also with balsa)
(1) 3/16 x 1 Birch Dowel Rudder Hardpoint
(2) 1/4 x 1-1/2 x 3-1/32 Birch Ply Front Wing Mounts
(1) 1/4 x 1 x 6-5/8 Birch Ply Rear Wing Mount
(2) 1/4 x 2-1/4 x 3-7/8 Birch Ply Landing Gear Mounts
Also, my kit has the two-piece landing gear made of some very thick aluminum. I'll be shopping for a set of carbon gear.
(5) Birch ply horn blocks
(2) Shaped Basswood Front Wing Bolt Block roughly 1-7/32" x 1-1/2" x 2-3/32"
(2) Tapered Balsa Rear Wing Bolt Block 19/32 x 1-29/32 x 4-1/16
(4) Tapered Basswood Spar Widener (Replacing these also with balsa)
(1) 3/16 x 1 Birch Dowel Rudder Hardpoint
(2) 1/4 x 1-1/2 x 3-1/32 Birch Ply Front Wing Mounts
(1) 1/4 x 1 x 6-5/8 Birch Ply Rear Wing Mount
(2) 1/4 x 2-1/4 x 3-7/8 Birch Ply Landing Gear Mounts
Also, my kit has the two-piece landing gear made of some very thick aluminum. I'll be shopping for a set of carbon gear.
11-26-2009, 02:03 PM
#16
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Finished up the wing last night. Pretty straight forward. Do youself a favor and move the rear bolt holes forward about 3/16", it'll save some headache and give some clearance for the bolts and the cardboard tubes.
Here is what everything weighs so far:
Fuse and Tail 2lb 3oz.
Engine and Mount (Enya 1.20R and Hyde Soft Mount) 2lb 7oz.
Prop and exhaust 5oz.
Wing and center fairing 1lb 14oz.
I am hoping to get in under 10lbs.
Here is what everything weighs so far:
Fuse and Tail 2lb 3oz.
Engine and Mount (Enya 1.20R and Hyde Soft Mount) 2lb 7oz.
Prop and exhaust 5oz.
Wing and center fairing 1lb 14oz.
I am hoping to get in under 10lbs.
01-17-2010, 08:51 PM
#17
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Pretty much done now. Just need to balance and add a little wingtip weight. One servo left to install. Weight is around 11.5lbs. Saito 1.80 should fly it nicely.
01-18-2010, 12:56 PM
#19
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Well, I've been working on it since March of last year, so I really waouldn't claim to have set any building records, but if I had worked on it religoiusly it would have been done in about two months, instead of 10. But I'm happy with the results. I hope it flies well.
01-26-2010, 09:26 AM
#20
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monee,
IL
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Nice looking plane Racin. I packed mine up in mid November. The plywood parts bag didn't make it into the kit when I opened it so I was having to make each piece... wing bolt plate, gear bolt plate.. etc. But, after seeing how nice your plane come out, she is back on the table. Thanks for the push!
08-08-2010, 08:36 PM
#22
My Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, IL,
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Midwest Giles G-202
Finally got around to flying this thing for the first time a few weeks ago. Aside from issues with the Saito, the beast flew hands off with about 3-4 clicks of aileron trim. It feels light, and doesn't seem to exhibit any of the tip-stalling characteristics mentioned by so many others. It is a blast to fly, and with more time, should just get better. I should note that she requires a fair amount of rudder-elevator mixing to keep from tucking during knife-edge, but it flat spins with the best of them. I'm not much of a 3D flyer, but for standard pattern manouvers and all around stick-banging, I am well satisfied. Now, on to the next project....
