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Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Old 07-29-2006, 01:34 AM
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phantom4099
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Default Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Hi,

I am thinking of purchasing my first nitro helicopter and was wondering what you guys thing of the items I am thinking of purchasing (mostly from heliproz.com in one or two orders).

A little background about my abilities (or lack there of), I been flying a blade CP since December and comfortable flying/landing/taking off in tail and side in hovering, and can hover nose in for a minute or two. I am also comfortable flying it around like an airplane and practicing spot landings.

I also fly nitro and electric planes, so I have some supplies already such as: transmitter, electric starter, glow igniter, 12 volt battery, battery charger, volt meter, fuel tubing, fuel filters, fuel pump, blue loctite (will I also need red loctite?) and some other airplane supplies and tools.

Before flying the helicopter the first time I plan on traveling to have an experienced flier check it out and take it up the first time - after that I will be mostly on my own.

Here is what I am planning on purchasing:

1 VelociRaptor 50 Titan: comes with blades, OS 50 Hyper engine, and a muffler or two http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...mber=101450PRO

3 Futaba 9252 servos http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=103119

1 JR universal hex starting shaft http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...number=101710]
I am a little unsure if this is the best one for my needs since I would like to continue to use just one starter for my planes and helicopter with out having to do a lot of modifying of the starter bettween crafts.

1 Futaba 401 gyro with servo http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=169840

1 Futaba 3151 servo for throttle http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=147805
Not sure if it is necessary to have this servo on the throttle, does any one else have any suggestions?

1 2700 mAh NiMh 4.8 volt Rx battery pack http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=158308
Again not sure what size I should get in this situations, I would like to get at least three flights in before I have to do a quick field charge.

1 3oz thing of tri-flow grease http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=113785
Suggestions are also wanted on this.

1 Futaba 8ch PCM receiver and the crystal that matches my transmitter http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=178975
Is it necessary to get a PCM receiver? I have a 7 channel PPM receiver, and have not really had problems with glitching on any of my nitro planes.

1 Futaba switch harness with charge connection http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=103039

1 set (2) of fuel cut off clips http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=106455

1 basic tool box: contains a blade holder, remote glow igniter, blade/ flybar aligner, ball link pliers, hex tools, and some other things that I don’t feel I need (glow plug wrenches, piston locking tool (OS manual says not to use it)). http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=805530

3 OS number 8 Glow plugs http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=108535
That is the right size for the 50 hyper engine right? I also plan on using them is my nitro planes (well on my OS .46 AX at least) since I can’t get them locally.

1 crankcase locking tool http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=144960
Not sure if this is necessary, seems like I read once that you can get by with out this or the piston locking tool.

The total for all of that is a little more than $1500.

Will this get me started? Is there anything that I am missing that is essential to flying the helicopter? Is there anything on the list that I can live with out? I am thinking of powering the helicopter with cool power 15% nitro fuel since it is the nearest thing to heli fuel I can get with out having to mail order some.

Wyatt W.
Old 07-29-2006, 06:35 AM
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BarracudaHockey
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Looks good. Here's some comments.

You will NEVER need to use red locktite on a model helicopter.

Throw the piston lock in the trash, the crank lock tool is the way to go.

Order PV0499 its a one piece tail rotor hub, discard the stock hub and replace it with this when you build it.
http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=136435

Discard the clunk line that ships with the kit and replace it with Hayes clunk line.
http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=801648

Goto your local auto parts store and purchase a tube of silicon dielectric grease and a small pair of snap ring pliers. The pliers are for assembling the autorotation hub and the grease is for lubricating the rubber dampeners in the head.

As for the fuel 15 percent Cool Power is ok, 20 percent cool power heli (the red stuff) is better. If you go with the green cool power the heli, 4 cycle and airplane fuels are all the same, the only thing different is the label. Try to obtain a bottle of Morgans oil and add 1.5 oz to each gallon, that will bring the oil up over 18 percent which is a better margin for the os's. The red heli fuel is already 20 percent oil.
Old 07-29-2006, 08:17 AM
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Jeremy300
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

That is a solid setup...you can't go wrong. Take barracuda's advice at get the one piece tail rotor hub. The best upgrade there is for the Raptor. Its surprising that this simple upgrade is not included with the Velociraptor setup. Also, and this maybe a bit nitpicky, but I would not use the servo you selected for throttle. The reason being is the speed. It is slower than the collective servo that you selected (9252). You want the throttle to lead the pitch slightly. This helps reduce engine bogging, although, you really need to jam the collective hard to bog a 50 hyper and even then you still may not bog it!!!!! I use FM Rx's in my Raptors and have never had a problem. A 7 channel will handle everthing you have on your list but in the future if you decide to upgrade to a governor you will need that 8th channel. Good luck.
Old 07-29-2006, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Barracuda, I don't want to offend anyone, I know you've built lots of heli's and you probably know your stuff, but that fan hub should be red loctited in place. Other than that, no, on a Raptor there's no call for red. I've had them come loose before. True, the rotation of the engine keeps it tight on the crank when it's running, but this can rear it's head when you're starting it and it can loosen. Not trying to step on anyone, I just wanted to make that point, take it for what it's worth. It's just best to err on the side of safety. Good call on the crank tool.

Also, on a gasser or heli that has a LARGE engine and prone to vibration, you will use red a lot. I know that's not what we're talking about here, but the word "never" can be deceiving.

I hope I didn't offend, it's just my opinion.
Old 07-29-2006, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Ok well I wasn't refering to gassers, never built or flown one but on a 90 and below nitro there's no need for red locktite, even for the fan.

If you clean the threads, blue lockite the fan on and tighten it with a fan tool and a crank lock, or a crank lock and two bolts in the spare clutch screw holes and a screwdriver like the picture, then install the nut with a socket wrench again with blue locktite, then let the whole assembly sit for 24 hours for the locktite to cure then it wont spit the fan off, even if you back fire or flood it.

There's a simple fan tool you can make out of a paint scraper as shown on http://www.raptortechnique.com and Wyatt thats a web site you are going to want to become familiar with. I had one machined but it does the same thing.

I've built a pile of Raptors and EVO's and Concepts and VRs and Shuttles and have never had fan come loose with the above method.
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Old 07-29-2006, 02:57 PM
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N11634
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Well, Experience is the best teacher. I had it happen with the blue. Each one since has had red on the clutch, again to err on the side of safety. To each their own.

That's what forums are for, to share your experiences and ideas.
Old 07-29-2006, 03:15 PM
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DDAADD
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

DID YOUGET THE MESSAGE ON THE RAPTOR 6P3D W/OS 70 ENG FOR HALF OF YOUR 1500 IF NOT AND WANT INFO GET BACK TO ME.OR WAS EVEN YOU WHO ASKED????????????
Old 07-29-2006, 03:24 PM
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phantom4099
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

edit: sent private message instead
Old 07-29-2006, 06:44 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

I go with blue loctite as well. The red can be nearly impossible to get off when dealing with small nuts and bolts. I think some it depends on how tight you get the prop nut though. I like to crank 'em down tight.

BTW, Wyatt that setup will give you a very nice heli. There's nothing like doing it right the first time.
Old 07-30-2006, 02:45 AM
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phantom4099
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

What is your guys views on the FMA copilot? I see it is about $45 dollars more (when you consider crystal costs) than the PCM receiver I listed.

Can the stabilization feature be turned on and off in flight, or switched to activate only in a fail safe mode? I don't like the aspect of it teaching me bad habits (such as letting go of the sticks if I get out of control), but I like the added fail safe aspect and the possibility for it to hold the helicopter in a hover while snapping pictures (if I choose to do that).

Wyatt W.
Old 08-01-2006, 08:46 AM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

From what I have read you can turn the FMA co-pilot on and off. I still can't decide if I thik it's a good idea or not for training, but for a camera ship it seems like it could easily keep the heli more stable than I could in a 200'+ hover.
Old 08-01-2006, 12:31 PM
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phantom4099
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Wow, I need to stop looking for stuff to buy- this is starting to get expensive.

So far I added what you guys have recommend to my list, plus the FMA copilot (figured if I did not like it on the heli I can always add it to my AP plane) and Real Flight G3.

Be a bit longer now before I have every thing bought, purchased Real Flight today (so I can practice and not get tempted while I have a unflyable heli), and probably order the helicopter and maybe the servos this Friday. Then in two weeks pic up every thing else I need except the FMA receiver (will use my extra receiver for two weeks when it's safe to order the FMA one).

I also edited a few things on my list too after talking to heliproz, I decided on a cheaper starting shaft. I was also wondering if a heavy duty switch harness is necessary (http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=150770) or if the one I originally listed will do OK?

Another thing I was wondering about is a different throttle servo possible the futaba 9101 high speed http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=150690 , or maybe the cheaper, but analog futaba 3010 http://www4.mailordercentral.com/hel...?number=151240 (I like the cheaper part, but other than that don't know much about it).

One last question about attaching the fan to the engine, with the tool shown on raptor techniques (the putty knife tool) is it still neccessary to get the crankcase locking tool?

Thanks guys you been alot of help so far
Wyatt W.
Old 08-01-2006, 12:43 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Some use the heavy duty switch some dont. I use switched regulators so if the switch fails its irrelevent, its up to you on that one.

The throttle servo doesn't matter unless you are plugging up a governor and doing 3d, any S148 will be fine, if you want to think ahead a little you can get a 3151 but there's no load so the only thing that really matters is speed and how much that matters is up for some debate.

Of all the things you are worried about spending money on, spend the few bucks and get the crank lock, you still have to hold the crank shaft from turning and there's ways to do it with an old tooth brush, string and a few others but the bottom line is a crank lock is the safest proven way to do it and it wont hurt the piston or pre load the engine bearings. Some folks use a rag to hold the fan, the picture I posted works just fine to get it tight so a fan tool is nice but a crank lock IMO is a necessity.
Old 08-01-2006, 07:37 PM
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hydravien
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

as for the piston locking tool, if you take off the head and stuff a bunch of fuel tubing into it, put the head back on and that will stop it from rotating as well.
iirc isnt red loctite (262) the stuff that never comes off unless its cut off or heated up (melting the fan)? i think that blue (242) should be used because no matter what, it will have to come off some day.
then again, maybe im thinking of the wrong stuff.
Old 08-02-2006, 10:26 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

I only use blue loctite unless I want to assemble something that will NEVER be taken apart. i.e. I don't posses any 'cos I love taken things apart!!

Best (debatable) and cheapest (definitely) crank locking tool I know is the old plastic toothbrush down the inlet hole (remove the carb). You don't want to use anything that could strain or damage the con-rod or deform the piston.

8 months on and my fan is rock solid.

Heavy duty switch is definitely recommended if you are running a full set of digitsal servos.
Old 08-04-2006, 07:38 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

I would not use that battery in a heli with 9252 digitals. AA NiMh cells usually have a very high internal impedance. Not knowing exactly which cells are used would make me shy away from that battery pack.
Old 08-04-2006, 09:36 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

I wish red loctite would keep my darn scale exhaust on my bell 222. I have been fighting a loose exhaust for two months now and still cannot keep it tightly on. Things and not warped and are still machined flat, but for some reason using red loctite does not work on my exhaust. Eaisly comes apart...lol I think i found a resolve using double nuts and epoxy to keep the nuts on the bolts.
Old 08-05-2006, 12:27 PM
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phantom4099
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

ORIGINAL: spog1

I would not use that battery in a heli with 9252 digitals. AA NiMh cells usually have a very high internal impedance. Not knowing exactly which cells are used would make me shy away from that battery pack.
Well I have not ordered the battery yet (in two weeks), can you give me a suggestion for a decent NiCd or good NiMh? Most the AA cell (AA is the size that I want, right?) that are NiCd seem to have quite a bit less capacity, and the ones with Simla capacity as the NiMh are sub C's.

Wyatt W.
p.s. Ordered the Heli, the tools to build, tail hub, clunk line, and crank locking tool yesterday - plus my simulator arrived... it seems allot harder to fly on there than my Blade CP. Hope to order the rest of the parts in two weeks.
Old 08-05-2006, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Speedy,
I just use a spring washer on each screw.

Never had a problem.

Phantom,
While sims are great, they are different because you do not have depth perception as you do in real life.
Old 08-05-2006, 07:03 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Recommended batteries - I like the sanyo FAUP NiMH packs (1950 or 3200 mah).
All of these packs should be good
http://www.hangtimes.com/giantrxpacks.html
I use the 3200 mah FAUP pack on my raptor 50SE, and it weighs about the same as a 2400mah sub C NiCad pack. With the 3200mah FAUP pack mounted below the servo tray, I still needed 25 grams of weight on the tail to balance the heli. The rudder servo is up front in the servo tray. The Titan comes with a rear servo mount, but I don't recommend using it. The exhaust oil may eventually get in the servo and kill it.
Old 08-05-2006, 11:40 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

On the Titan I believe only choice is the rear mounted servo unless you buy additional parts.

As for killing servos, mine has been mounted at the rear for about 150 flights now. If it starts giving a problem, I will let you guys know. As far as I can tell this seems to be an urban legend. I never heard or read of someone ACTUALLY having the tail servo damaged this way.

Just as a matter of interest, for some reason I have noticed the tail servo does not pick up much oil at all. (when I do my end of session cleandown)
Old 08-06-2006, 08:14 AM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Oil intrusion can/will damage a servo especially if you are flying alot of backwards and or inverted backwards.

Crash damage is also more likely with a rear mounted servo as well as vibration being transfered directly to the gear train by a carbon rod setup.

All that being said, the titan gives you the choice of running the rear servo mount and using the push pull collective or using a standard collective pushrod and mounting the servo in the canopy.
Old 08-06-2006, 10:39 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

Oil intrusion can/will damage a servo especially if you are flying alot of backwards and or inverted backwards.
BH, Not wishhing to argue the point because I honestly don't know but this is exactly what I have read in many places BUT, having spoken to, or dicused directly with a number people who actually run a rear mounted servo over extended periods, I have yet to find one (in my admittedly limited contact zone) that ACTUALLY had a problem.

Have you yourself ever experienced this for example?
Old 08-06-2006, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

this is guy you em the other nite on thr raptor603d still looking i got an em link from your keyword let me know [email protected]
Old 08-07-2006, 09:17 AM
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Default RE: Help with Raptor 50 purchase list

I fly an EVO 50 with a 9254 on the tail, its got a seal on the case at the 2 separation points, a seal on each screw and as seal on the output shaft.

Every 20 or 30 flights I take it apart and clean it and lube the gears, there's always a small amount of oil seeping in, I've even replaced the seals.

I'm more worried about the vibraton being directly transmitted to the gear train than the oil though and of course crash damage, I've seen quite a few torn up in crashes.

The ideal setup would be a carbon push rod to a bell crank at the back of the frame somewhere to a carbon rod to the tail. The intermediate bell crank would absorb most of the vibration and you would still get a very stiff linkage to the tail, although there's nothing wrong with the stock raptor linkage if you lockite the grub screws and align the pushrod guides carefully.

But Archie yes I have seen them fry and open them up and they have been soaked, and a couple have been sent by by Hobby Services with the warranty denied because of oil intrusion.

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