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TT 53 Redline leaning out

Old 04-28-2010, 08:44 AM
  #1  
Gavin2407
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Default TT 53 Redline leaning out

Good day

I recently purchased a brand new Raptor 50 Titan SE kit from overseas as they are not available here in South Africa yet. Although buying local doesn't work as we are paying 100%-200% more than what we can import items for
Already have a Raptor 50 V2 that has been upgraded with both Titan and SE parts.

Current setup is as follows:

Kit: 4854-K12 Blue
Engine: TT 53H Redline
Muffler: Redline Hi flow 3D pipe
Main blades: Radix 600mm
Tail blades: Radix 95mm
Gyro: JR G770T
Gyro servo: JR 8900G
Cyclic servos: Align DS610
Collective servo: Align DS610
Throttle servo: Align DS610
Receiver: JR RD921 2.4 GHz
Transmitter: JR DSX9
Governor: Zero a (No. 8030)
Rx Battery: JR 4.8V 4500mah NiMH
Fuel: Morgan Low Viscosity 15% (15% nitro, 2% caster/98% synthetic oil, 17% Total oil)

The problem I’m experiencing with this Raptor is on Sunday 25-04-2010 started engine with factory settings (i.e. main needle at 3 turns out & mixture needle at flush with carb body) for the first time and realized with the cold weather we are having that those settings were still to lean as motor was getting a bit hot and high rpm. I tried richening low end another ½ turn out and high to almost 3 1/2 turns out just to get it to still run without getting hot, ran only one tank through in a hover. Yesterday Tuesday 27-04-2010 the day was warmer at about 26-28 degrees Celsius, ran another 7 tanks through to break in engine. The first 5 tanks were just spent hovering and idling in 30 second intervals. On tank 6 decided to do slow, level figure 8’s with engine basically running just past idle. At approximately 1/4 tank left the motor suddenly went very lean as I could hear the head speed increase to + - 2200 rpm by the time I put it down. Felt engine back plate and it was hot but not so that you couldn’t touch it. Found that the nipple on the exhaust pressure line had come loose, tightened it again and left everything to cool off nicely. Later on tank 7 at again 1/4 tank, it went lean again, this time getting hot to the touch. Inspection revealed nothing loose or fuel line leaks. I can’t understand why it keeps going lean and current needle settings are beyond normally rich. Throttle and pitch curve are linear. What would cause this engine to have to run so rich yet still leans out the way it does. Don’t want to destroy a brand new engine. Redline 53 on my other raptor took almost a full 5 litre fuel can to just get enough power to fly beyond hovering. Runs very well now with tons of power, can’t run above 80% throttle as pitch range is only +10 / -10 degrees. Thought by having the new Titan kit with + - 15 degree pitch I could utilise the full potential of this motor. Removing exhaust and back plate revealed no discolouration of any roughness from sleeve, piston, ring or bearings. Only ran 8 tanks which amounts to 2.7 litres of fuel. Please assist with advise on what I could do or check to eliminate this issue.

Regards,

Gavin
Old 04-29-2010, 02:17 AM
  #2  
RevGQ
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hey Gavin: make sure that the head bolts are tight and that the carb is properly fitted.
Old 04-30-2010, 07:25 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Good day

Pulled the motors out the new 50 SE and the 50 V2 last night. after checking all bolt were still secure, I noticed that the new motor had the "hidden" needle turned in to far causing the mixture screw to be 1 1/2 turns to far "lean" when adjusted to factory specs. Set needles the same as old 53 Redline. will test this weekend and give feedback. I think that what was happening is that the needle valve was set so rich that when you have started the motor it is running only on the low needle, which it still uses in a hover. after going past low into high side while flying it doesn't transition evenly back to low. the further I came back on throttle it just caused the mixture screw to close further, getting leaner all the time. must learn to flick the switch and "auto's" anyway, I hope this is what it was but will have to test it out.

Cheers
Gavin
Old 04-30-2010, 08:22 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

where is the hidden needle located? inside the low mixture screw?
Old 04-30-2010, 10:34 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Replace the clunk lines with good fuel line. Even if thats your problem, do it anyways, its a matter of time before it causes you problems.
Old 05-01-2010, 12:35 AM
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Gavin2407
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hi BarracudaHockey

Thank you for the advise. I replaced the fuel lines including the clunk line of both the main and header tanks before installing them with dubro fuel line (tranparent blue), could 8 tanks of fuel cause it to fail so quickly? been using this fuel line eversince you suggested alternative fuel line in a previous post with my first Raptor. We fly every weekend here so I also change out the fuel line every 2 months regardless of its condition.

Hi Hobby_man

The "hidden" needle is hidden inside the throttle rotor body, behind the throttle linkage. you have to remove this with and allen key and then use a thin flat screwdriver to set it. If you look inside the carb, the "hidden" needle sits directly opposite the mixture metering screw. I have found out that the factory settings for the "hidden" needle is 1mm gap between mixture metering screw and "hidden" needle while carb is fully open. This you can check and set with the engine removed from your heli as follows: 1 - set the Needle valve(high) to 3 turns out from closed. 2 - set the mixture metering screw flush the the carb body. 3 - Set the "hidden" needle so that there in 1mm gap between it and the mixture screw. a quick and crude way is to take a small cable tie and put it between the mixture screw and "hidden" needle, this will give you a good starting point.

Regards
Gavin
Old 05-11-2010, 03:37 AM
  #7  
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hi Everyone

Well, finally got the chance to test heli this weekend. After setting the needles as described previously, it started like a dream. Transition from idle to full throttle was a bit sluggish and at one point sounded like it was ready to quit but then picks up rpm very quickly and smoothly. Adjusted the high needle from 3 turns out to 2 1/4 turns out, now it runs with no transition issues or leaning out. Only running 80% throttle on the throttle curve , running +-2000 rpm on the head fairly constantly. Tried the governor(zero a) out but does anyone know how to get this thing to work? Magnets, spacing & everything installed as per manual. Have it setup on my flight mode switch but when engaged it sounds like you are blipping the throttle very quickly. Some say theirs either doesn't pick up rpm, others say theirs picks up to much rpm. Should I maybe bin this governor? Which is the "better" governor to get? Don’t need top of the line stuff yet

Cheers
Gavin
Old 05-11-2010, 12:16 PM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

First, governor surging is usually a tuning problem, often too rich but I'd have to hear it to be sure.

The best luck with governors for me as been with the Multigov and they aren't any more expensive than any others.
Old 05-12-2010, 02:34 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hi BarracudaHockey

TT53 is still running rich, didn't think that rich but will try it out with leaner settings. How user friendly is the multigov? How do you setup to work with a JR DSX9 (JR 9303 I believe is the American version)? What "tuning" techniques do you guys use for you engines? I have always checked the back plate and if I can keep my finger on it for 10 seconds or more I'm happy also keep an eye on the smoke to get a general idea of what "tuning" is required. I've read in a few posts that guys are talking about temps of the head but what would it be and is it measured in degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit? Would like to get the governor working as want to try and keep headspeed as constant as possible. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Gavin
Old 05-12-2010, 07:34 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

The multigov is about as easy as it gets. Plug in the little programming screen and flip the flight mode switch, each switch position you can set an RPM and mode (Governor or Rev Limiter), plug in the gear ratio and set the throttle end points and you're done.

If you can hold your finger on the backplate for 10 seconds its too rich, you want it fairly warm to the touch with it being uncomfortable in 5 seconds or so.

As for smoke, that really depends on the fuel (specifically the oil package). Some don't smoke much, some will belch smoke right up until the motor burns a hole in the piston. Checking the backplate, and listening to the engine are how you tune it. I know thats hard when you don't know what you're listening for. One of the things you can do is fly it around a bit to get her nice and warm and hit throttle hold. If it does a rat tat tat it's too lean, if it settles into a nice idle then you're probably in decent shape. I also do climb outs both upright and inverted and listen to the motor.

Check out http://www.raptortechnique.com he's got a couple of good articles on engine tuning.

Also, this isn't free but may be worth the few bucks, its a couple of the top US pilots explaining nitro engine tuning.
http://www.smacktalkrc.com/archives/109
Old 05-13-2010, 01:52 AM
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Gavin2407
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Thanks BarracudaHockey
I guess I'll try running leaner setting to get the governor working. I'm worried about running on the lean side of things as Thunder Tiger warns of the TT 53 Redline not being able to handle any lean runs without destroying the engine. I have done more research about the Ace zero a governor and it seems nobody can get these things to work correctly. Seems the multigov is the way to go for me. What is the engines life span when tuned to peak settings? We fly almost every weekend all year round. I'm not anywhere close to being able to "3D" only what I would term as general buzzing around with the odd loop and fast forward flight, so at this stage not at the point where I have to see every last drop of performance out of my engines. I would like to start with the rolls and stationary flips so I'm about maintaining head speed. I understand from others that rolls and flips can really sap the head rpm if collective management is poor which I believe a good governor will assist me in this regard. Mate of mine flies a Trex 600n and during rolls it bogs down majorly that when he tried to complete 2 consecutive rolls, the heli basically fell halfway through the second one. Lucky for him, he was high up and recovered.
Cheers
Old 05-14-2010, 08:31 AM
  #12  
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

A Governor wont help if you don't know how to manage the sticks or have twice as much cyclic as you need.

When total pitch approaches 16 or 17 degrees the blade becomes inefficent and no motor can turn it no matter how much throttle a governor throws at it.

I'd be curious to know how much cyclic you and your buddy are running.
Old 05-16-2010, 02:34 AM
  #13  
Gavin2407
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hi Barracuda

I,ve set up both my raptor 50's and my buddys Trex 600. I start with Collective pitch 0 deg at mid stick with all links 90 deg. next get equal neg and pos pitch in idel up 1, on the one raptor its +10 / -10, new raptor running +14 / -14 & trex 600 also +12 / -12. I set the cyclic throws sothat there is no binding taking place. I believe the trex and new raptor is running +/-8 deg on the swashplate. once everything is setup machanically I set Normal mode sothat it's -6 / +10 deg, I set linear throttle curve to start off with and adjust at the field to maintain desired rpm on the head. all three heli's will do a full pitch climbout, fast forward flight and loops with no bogging or overspeeding. only in rolls with the trex does the motor bog down abit. doing consecutive rolls bogs down the motor to the point you think it's going to die. whether he is to harsh on the sticks on I did something on setup, I don't know. going to fly soon and will check his stick movements to see what's going on.

Regards
Gavin
Old 05-16-2010, 11:45 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Too much cyclic throw. Set your pitch to 0, stick the blades out front and back and put a pitch gauge on, give full aileron throw and measure the pitch both ways.

Turn the blades 90 degrees to the frames and measure the elevator.

Let me know what the throws are.
Old 05-19-2010, 01:03 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hi Barracuda

Finally got a chance to check cyclic throws last night on the Titan 50 SE as you suggested and are as follows:
Up elevator = 11 deg
Down elevator = 10 deg
Left aileron = 9 deg
Right aileron = 9 deg
Trex 600N cyclic throws are about 10 deg for both elevator & aileron.
If I understood you correctly about total pitch, I gather then that you would add your collective pitch and you cyclic pitch together to get your total pitch range. if this is the case then I'm seriously making a mess of my setups. with a max of 14 deg on collective and 9/11 deg cyclic, I would then be running between 23/25 deg total pitch. that would kill my new raptor very very quickly[&o] as stated before, I always just make sure my ATV for pitch, elevator and cyclic are as close to 100% as possible without causing any binding. good thing we can come on this forum and learn new things every day. What should the total pitch be and whats the max cyclic throw thats most efficient? I know mine doesn't bog down at the moment but yes I don't exactly bang my stick around either.

Cheers
Gavin
Old 05-19-2010, 11:02 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Try 12 collective and 7.5 to 8 on the cyclic.
Old 05-20-2010, 01:11 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Thanx, Will change setup and test it the weekend.
Old 05-20-2010, 09:01 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

WOW, I re set up my Titan 50 Se last night with +-10 on the collective, I had it at +-14

Now were are flying, I can keep some head speed now.
Old 05-24-2010, 04:53 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Hi Everyone

I changed setup to +12/-12 collective pitch and +8/-8 cyclic pitch and must say that now she performs very well with no bogging down. I made my low end another 1/8 leaner and high end also 1/2 turn leaner, massive increase in power with still slightly rich settings. had to decrease the throttle curve to 0, 48, 82 though just to keep head rpm at about 2050. governor still doesn't work even with the leaner settings. Mates trex with a tt 53 redline and hatori 523 pipe was still bogging abit but have some work to do on his engine. it starts, idle's great but very sluggish during transition, bottom of the high end seems to be lean but gets righer at the top of the high end. setting motor back to factory setting yields similar results. what could cause the engine to do this?
Cheers
Old 05-24-2010, 02:35 PM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Glad you got it sorted out, proper setup can transform most dog's into good flying helicopters no matter what kind of helicopter they are.

As for him, start at factory settings.

http://www.raptortechnique.com has two good nitro tuning articles worth reading and though its a pay site, Bert Kammerer did a thing on nitro tuning on http://www.smacktalkrc.com Bert and Bobby know a bit about engine tuning.
Old 05-25-2010, 12:55 AM
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Default RE: TT 53 Redline leaning out

Thanx Barracuda.
RCuniverse and raptortechnique are my favourite sites to troll for info.
Cheers

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