acdii

Put some helium balloons in it. [8D]

KitBuilder

Slow down with elevator and learn your aircrafts stall speed before you do......its that simple

sensei

That works great for airplanes with normal or lower wing loadings, but for the heavy weights out there with really high wing loadings, unfortunately the stall speed in many cases is higher than the normal landing speed of the aircraft and pulling back on the stick in an effort to slow before touchdown is more like a trip hammer maneuver to stall and snap, so in these cases slipping in is a more effective way to get it done. Now again going light makes all these kind of issues go away in the first place.

Bob

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

\
Quite unlikely (at least if you get rid of the flaperons). The OP's question was about how to slow down. Slipping is not a way to slow down, it's a way to lose altitude. In 25 years of flying models, I've never seen anyone who had to make a model with high wing loading slip to land it. The only plane I've had that needed to slip routinely was a very light Goldberg Cub, and we had a short field with tall bushes at the end of the runway. The way to slow a plane down is to raise the nose. You will often have to add power when you do that, but that shouldn't keep you from slowing down. Lots of good advice in the first few replies to the question.

sensei

So your saying that crossing it up and slipping it in does not bleed off speed? LOL If you are talking about the use of flaperons on an aerobatic bird to land, then it is way over weight budget to start with, and I in my couple of days of flying have witnessed plenty of overweight smaller aerobatic birds get down right pissed off and dump a wing when pulling back on the stick at a normal landing speed. I can show video of my aerobatic bird crossed up and slipping in at a crawl of around 15mph, do you have anything to show?

Bob

corch

My Feedback: (1)

since your are flying electric, does the esc have a brake function?  deadstick it in.  you can always add power when you need it.  Crab it in-apply oppisite rudder and aileron so that you are still heading down the center line.  Also in a confined space a hard banking turn will slow you down, so practice flying to make the final turn as low as possible to without diving. Practice 3 mistakes high

AA5BY

Lifting the nose adds drag when the plane is all ready in some degree of wing stall. It is a balancing act of flying the plane within the parameters of the stall and remaining controls. Many pilots are proficient with a plane to do that and it works quite well to slow a plane during landing. However, I'd suggest that those of us who rotate fly a hanger of several planes will not choose to do it. Adequate familiarity just doesn't exist for the average pilot when flying a plane once or twice a month interrupted by the parameters of a host of other planes. To those good pilots who can.... kudos.

That leaves the need to induce drag by some other means. Slipping induces drag.... no? As do flapperons, flaps, flaps and spoilerons (crow), shallower glide slope and my favorite a longer prop with a smaller pitch.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

I'm not saying it can't be done. But if you have to do it routinely to land a heavy plane on an ordinary-length runway, you are doing something wrong. Most likely, you're nose-heavy. Or you are coming in too high. Or you are messing up your plane's stall characteristics by using flaperons. No plane should stall at "normal landing speed" on a routine landing (three-point landings aside).

BillS

"… the stall speed in many cases is higher than the normal landing speed …"

In post # 52 the statement is misleading, confusing and maybe just plain wrong. A full scale example of this design technique will probably be hard to find. And yes everyone understands that high alpha flight affects stall characteristics.

Bill

acdii

Landing speed is what ever the pilot makes it.  At some point all planes land. Whether they land on their wheels in one piece, now thats a different subject.

ssautter

I didn't see the ESC manufacturer mentioned either; but, I can recommend a soft drag brake setting, if your speed control is programmable for such functions.
Don't program full brake, as this is for folding propellors on sailplanes. A moderate setting can emulate the compression braking of a nitro or gasser engine.

Flaperons are likely to stall your wing, make it more difficult to keep your wings level on the approach, and offer no scale realism if your flying IMAC requirements.
Carrier landings, speed brakes, and spoilers simply don't mix withthe averageaerobatic ship. Have you tried different props?

sensei

I like crossing it up and slipping in for the pure fun of it so I guess I must be doing it wrong, here is the first of two videos of me landing just pulling back on the stick as some some experts suggest, please note the speed. To get a good comparison only watch the last minute in each video to compare landing speeds while doing things wrong to slow the airplane. Video 1 http://vimeo.com/22208107

Now video video 2 http://vimeo.com/22211697

These flights took place 20 minutes apart under the same environmental conditions, it is easy to see the slower landing was performed the way some suggest as...

Bob

sensei

[quote]ORIGINAL: BillS

''… the stall speed in many cases is higher than the normal landing speed …''

In post # 52 the statement is misleading, confusing and maybe just plain wrong. A full scale example of this design technique will probably be hard to find. And yes everyone understands that high alpha flight affects stall characteristics.

Bill

[/quote
You my friend are comparing a full scale aerobats flight characteristics to an R/C aerobats flight characteristics, that tells me you are truly confused in matters of scaling, cubed loading, power and wing loading issues. So you might be easy to confused at my statement: The stall speed in many cases is higher than the normal landing speed, you and Top Gunn both completely evaded the statement I made about very high wing loaded small aircraft that led up to that statement.

Bob

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Bob,

If you want to make all your approaches slips because it's fun, go for it. But slipping is not the normal way to make landing approaches with heavy planes (except as one way to deal with crosswinds), and repeatedly saying you can do it doesn't change that fact. I'm pretty sure the OP was looking for advice about what to do to make ordinary landings. Most of the replies gave him useful advice about that. I have yet to meet a plane that was incapable of making an ordinary approach and landing on a reasonably long runway, if set up correctly. Are you seriously claiming that your planes won't do that? Or that the OP's can't be made to do that?

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

I have two options for you. Option number is land on the mains and let the plane bleed off airspeed. Option number two is to sell your 3D monster. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but it sounds like this plane exceeds your skills.

sensei

As you and others can see in the videos the airplane and I are both capable of slowing and landing either way, the slip just slows a little better as already demonstrated, not just stated in both videos. Please note I don't just type, type, type, from the constraints of my armchair with a keyboard in front of it as some on here do, I will back up what I say with videos, pictures or build threads on the design or technical side of things.

Now all your really saying from your post is this style of slowing and landing R/C aerobatic aircraft is not normal for you in all your many years of flying, what we don't know is; what is your real level of R/C aerobatic aircraft flying skills, or do you even fly these type of airplanes at all? I ask because you do not have anything posted in your profile gallery indicating what you fly, build, or anything for that matter, right now you appear to be one of those that only talks the talk, it is time to walk the walk, and show us what a TOP GUNN you really are...

Bob

sebo

WAY TO GO, SENSEI!
BUT, I STILL LIKE THE NET IDEA...........HEY, I CAN'T EVEN HIT THE RUNWAY........THE GRASS SLOWS ME DOWN....OR THE CHAIRS OR FLAGPOLE...EVEN BUSHES AROUND THE FENCE AT THE ENDS OF THE FIELD..........SEBO

sensei

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Ok, so I didn't wade through every single post in this thread but enough to get the gist of the question and responses.

Lets not get to technical least someone whip out a graduate degree and show the research that proves how full of it we are - I have seen that happen before.

However, there are some good tips as for getting the CG corrected, getting the idle under control, and a few about flying techniques. That last is where I spend my time and suggest a couple of exercises that might help resolve the problem which really is not slowing the aircraft down but being comfortable with it as it naturally looses airspeed.

Let me share what I do with EVERY SINGLE new bird I take to the field because it is a large part of the place to develop the techniques to land safely.

After confirming CG and CONTROL THROWS (ate a new T-34 last fall when I noticed the rudder was reversed and failed to double check after correcting it because I reversed the ailerons also[:@] ) I make sure there is a reliable idle. That is important for the flight because it is generally what we use during the approach (or near to it).

After the launch, I get the proverbial 3 mistakes high and make sure the trims are where I can live with them without thought. Then the real testing begins. This is where you find out what your airplane is and how to handle it.

The first test is lock aileron in both directions to make sure we have enough rather that way too much at low rate then again at high rate to see what I have if I screw up (a commonplace action).

I also test the rudder to make sure the airframe responds as expected. Low wings just yaw at speed but at very low speed (slow landing approach) you can (with practice and great care) use the rudder like it was a 3 channel bird.

The final series of tests are where you really need to spend the most of your time and effort because they will have dramatic impact on your landings, or arrivals as the case may be.

First I go to full throttle and pull full elevator at dual rate. If the bird snaps out anywhere in the loop, the elevator throw at that setting is too much. Either nurse a landing and correct or DON'T USE FULL ELEVATOR until the throw is corrected. If the bird did not snap, I go to full throw and repeat the test for knowledge. If it snaps now but did not earlier, go back to the dual rate setting. This is something you can play with more later but there is more testing to do.

As was noted earlier nose heavy planes are difficult to land, but tail heavy planes tend to land less frequently.

So assuming we are near book CG lets test the planes responsiveness at minimum controllable airspeed. First lets find out what that is but at 3 mistakes high. Slow to 1/4 throttle and fly the circuit. Continue doing so and retard the throttle 1 click at each turn until you can make no turn without loosing altitude. That is the airspeed below minimum controllable airspeed. Increase the throttle 5 clicks and fly a level figure 8 with the aircraft coming towards you at the crossover points. Once you have flown 3 or 4 of these, reduce the throttle 1 click and continue. When you get down to where the aircraft looses altitude whenever you reduce the throttle 1 click, you have arrived just slower than you want to start your approaches so increase the throttle and fly several more figure 8's. This gets you comfortable with your airplanes responsiveness and looks a speeds you will be using while making landings.

Then you can use what (Bob?) suggested about pulling throttle down to 3 clicks above idle when the aircraft is abeam you on the downwind. That is scary in a new unknown plane which is part of what I am hearing the OP tell us.

YMMV

cubflyman

Hi guys; I found that I had a plane that did't like to land, just floated in ground effect till I fluw it all the way to the ground. Yes, I moved the elevater stick foward just enought to plant the wheels on the grass without nosing over and let the grass slow the plane down. Practice touch and goes with the throttle set at a low level flight setting, roll the wheels and lift off again till you can chop the throttle and stopp where you want it to be. Just a thought and good luck. TomP cubflyman

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

No, Bob, what I'm "really saying" is that landing without slipping is normal for just about everybody, not just me. You keep telling us to watch your videos, but why? I don't deny that you can slip before landing; I've done it myself (both with models and with full-scale gliders) to handle crosswinds and to lose altitude when necessary. But all the flyers I know, not just me, usually manage to land without slipping, so saying "you should slip" is poor advice for someone who asks for advice about how to slow down for landing. It may be worth noting that nobody in this thread has agreed with that advice so far.

Why do you keep asking for a video? If you want to see someone land without slipping, just go to an RC field, any RC field, and wait.

I don't propose to start bragging about the planes I fly. This isn't a big plane contest. Do I really need "credentials" to support a claim that landing without slipping is the ordinary way to land an RC model, absent crosswinds???

MX240

My Feedback: (4)

I see it all the time and I am guilty of it myself till I catch myself.
Do some slow flight during the flight.
I see people going full out the whole flight and then get so use to that feel that they come in hot.

MTK

Slipping the plane in is a good tool to have. Practice it and learn it so you can pull it out of your bag of tricks whenever you need to.

It creates quite a bit of drag, more so than bringing the model in "normally", and may require a bit of throttle to keep the crate flying. It is a fairly common technique we who fly in competition practice.....Is it necessary? NO! But we've found over the years that sometimes you just need to bleed off speed fast.

How many sport fliers do we see every time at the field, landing a bit too hot and then chasing their model a few hundred feet down the runway? Slipping it in reduces the chase.....

Has the technique been explained yet?

As far as flaperons go, this can be made to work too but appropriate pitch couple will be necessary. Current computer radios make set-up a breeze.

BillS

Jim,

Thanks for steering the conversation back on subject.

Your description of "minimum controllable airspeed" was very good. Arriving at minimum controllable airspeed by hit or miss is probably causing me trouble. Some of my engine/prop combinations idle above the minimum controllable airspeed maybe over a thousand rpm. Your explanation has provided a new perspective.


Bill

sensei

I have no need to do any bragging about my giant scale planes, and I have not done any, if the fact that I build and fly them offends you in some way, I don't give a rat's a$%, so don't toss that over the fence in a lame effort to make your point. What I have done is illustrate through the use of video the difference of two styles of landing this type of R/C aircraft, and the slipping indeed slowed this type of airplane more effectively... I could care less if it is the norm or not at this point. Now with all this said, and as I suspected; you TOPP GUNN as always provide nothing but armchair pilot impute from your keyboard. The thread starter asked about ways to slow his aerobatic airplane for landing and I not only told him another way that works but I showed him. If seeing is not believing then allow your ignorance to run ramped. I was giving my point of view just like everyone else when you quoted me and began your armchair rant in an effort to discredit my point of view on the subject, and again with nothing but Bla, Bla, Bla,....

Bob