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How to slow down plane while landing?
Please, advise on how to slow down aerobatic plane (w/o flaps) like Hangar9 Katana-50 while approaching landing?
I have aelerons set as flapperons, but on all landing approaches the plane is coming to almost crush situation while practically stalling at ~2m altiture. It is hard for me to compensate for sudden nose up while both aelerons down ~ 25 degree and still opperational as aelerons. I am looking for more simple way to slow down plane on approaching for landing. Please, share your thoughts. Thank you, AK. |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
First off, flapperons are never a good idea. But that's a whole other subject.
And if you can't slow down even with flapperons down, chances are your plane is nose heavy. Double-check your CG |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer First off, flapperons are never a good idea. But that's a whole other subject. And if you can't slow down even with flapperons down, chances are your plane is nose heavy. Double-check your CG + 1 on all of that. Is this your first aerobat? Check the CofG in flight - trim the plane to fly straight and level with about 50% throttle. Pull it into a 45 degree upline, Roll it inverted and see how much elevator you need to push or pull to hold it there. A well balanced plane will require very little elevator movement to hold that upline once inverted. If it drops the nose real quick when you invert, it is nose heavy, if it climbs real quick when you invert, it is tail heavy.Manuals have been known to be wrong with the Cof G recommendations in the past. Once you have done what Minnflyer has suggested. Here are some more flying tips. Go up to "3 mistakes high" and practice a basic harrier maneuver. Do this by slowly bringing the throttle down and at the same time raising the nose but keep the plane moving forward. As the wings rock, use rudder to try to keep it level. Eventually you will find a combination that works for your plane and your thumbs. Thsi is the compbination you want for landing. Remember these in your landings. Throttle adjusts height or rate of descent (by altering the airspeed over the wing - thus increasing or decreasing lift). Elevator adjusts airspeed (by altering the frontal area that is presented to the airflow). Rudder is best to pick up a dropping wing on landing (ailerons will tend to speed you towards a wing stall). As you approach, reduce throttle to slow the plane and reduce lift. Raise the nose a little to further slow the plane and if a wing starts to drop - pick it up with rudder (If the plane is coming toward you - push the rudder stick to the low wing). When you are just a couple of feet above the ground, chop the throttle and let it sink to the ground. Practice that up high and you will quickly get the feel for the plane. |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Maybe your engine idle speed is to high???? Adjust the idle speed buy adjusting the low speed mix and throttle opening for the slowest RELIABLE idle you can get. If you need to, ask somebody to help. A larger diameter lower pitch prop may help also. (makes for a bigger brake up front)
Good luck on you quest for a graceful landing!! Ken |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
AK, you didn't mention what engine/prop combination you are using. This airplane set up per the plans should slow down very nicely. If you've changed anything from the plans the above ideas are good things for you to check.
But most of the time when people can't slow a plane down the problem is technique. What is your flying history? As Steve asked, is this a move up to a more advanced airplane? You have to remember, your Katana isn't going to be as draggy as a trainer or a stick so it's not going to slow down as quickly. And flaperons definitely isn't the answer. We've all played with them at one time or another and most all abandon them as not a good thing. As you have discovered they make the plane non-responsive right when you need the response the most. And if you do use them, 25 degrees is way too much. The usual answer to this problem is to slow down your plane sooner and start your descent sooner. A light, slick airframe has a much shallower approach angle than a draggy airplane. If you try to come in too high, when you force it in you will gain airspeed that you can't bleed off until you're past the runway. When I prepare to land I chop my throttle back to just about 3 clicks above idle on the downwind leg about directly in front of me. That's right, still have half a circuit to fly and I'm almost at an idle. Let the plane descend during the downwind leg. Do be careful of your turns as you're flying slower now make gentle turns and watch for stalls. Keep the nose down in the turns and you'll be bleeding off altitude. When you come out of your final turn you should be much lower than the approach you make with a stick or a trainer. If you're too low, add a little throttle to stretch the approach. As you approach the runway continue descending and cut throttle even more. That plane should be able to slow very nicely but it will require throttle and altitude management. The last thing is to practice. Get out to the field when it's not crowded and practice touch and goes. One after another. Entire flights of touch and goes. Don't be afraid to put the power back on and go around if you're coming in hot. If you do enough touch and goes you'll find the technique that works for you and your plane. Dave |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
ORIGINAL: dbacque AK, you didn't mention what engine/prop combination you are using. This airplane set up per the plans should slow down very nicely. If you've changed anything from the plans the above ideas are good things for you to check. But most of the time when people can't slow a plane down the problem is technique. What is your flying history? As Steve asked, is this a move up to a more advanced airplane? You have to remember, your Katana isn't going to be as draggy as a trainer or a stick so it's not going to slow down as quickly. And flaperons definitely isn't the answer. We've all played with them at one time or another and most all abandon them as not a good thing. As you have discovered they make the plane non-responsive right when you need the response the most. And if you do use them, 25 degrees is way too much. The usual answer to this problem is to slow down your plane sooner and start your descent sooner. A light, slick airframe has a much shallower approach angle than a draggy airplane. If you try to come in too high, when you force it in you will gain airspeed that you can't bleed off until you're past the runway. When I prepare to land I chop my throttle back to just about 3 clicks above idle on the downwind leg about directly in front of me. That's right, still have half a circuit to fly and I'm almost at an idle. Let the plane descend during the downwind leg. Do be careful of your turns as you're flying slower now make gentle turns and watch for stalls. Keep the nose down in the turns and you'll be bleeding off altitude. When you come out of your final turn you should be much lower than the approach you make with a stick or a trainer. If you're too low, add a little throttle to stretch the approach. As you approach the runway continue descending and cut throttle even more. That plane should be able to slow very nicely but it will require throttle and altitude management. The last thing is to practice. Get out to the field when it's not crowded and practice touch and goes. One after another. Entire flights of touch and goes. Don't be afraid to put the power back on and go around if you're coming in hot. If you do enough touch and goes you'll find the technique that works for you and your plane. Dave My Hangar9 Katana 50 is set as electric plane with AXI 4120/14 and Tunder Power 5S 5000maH (661gr). Due to CG disbalance I have added 170gr to the motor mount. Ready to fly weight is 3550gr. Yes, it is step up from E-Flight Carbon-Z Yak-54, which I am flying for entire season. 16 batteries per weekend with 7-9min each flight. Most 3D is mastered well and I start feeling that Yak is a bit slow in the air compare with the other balsa build electric planes. The reasons for step up: 1) Would like to fly faster and do 3D at higher speed; 2) Would like to fly larger and heavier plane. You know. it feels differently in the air :-). The problem for me: Faster in general this plane is approaching relatively short landing strip with higher speed and it is bothering me and stress me every time during the landing. With Carbon-Z Yak-54 I can land on 10m strip time after time w/o problem. For 50" size Katana over 100m strip is not long enough :-) I am thinking to slow down plane before landing by turning it 360 degree around to slow down and flare on the last 90 degree of the turn and only then take direction toward the landing strip . . . Our field is surrounded by moderate size trees on approach directions, thus I have to dive down at the beginning of the landing strip and this increase the speed when plane is already close to the ground (2-3m altitude). At this altitude I am afraid to flare as I may stall the plane w/o the chance to gain the speed again at 1.5-2 m altitude. As a result of increased speed after diving down to ~3m altitude and no action to slow down plane while the final 1.5m -0m slope my plane is always hitting the end of the strip with bushes (not what I like to see :-) ). I am also planning to remove 170gr weight from the nose and put rudder servo to the centre of the plane with push/tow setting instead of tail located servo with regular pushrod. This should help with CG and 170gr weight may not needed anymore. Thank you for all your inputs and more advises are welcome |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
One thing you might try is to side-slip (cross control) on final rather than a straight-in approach.
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
The side slip is a good way of bleeding off some speed. You would do well to practice slow flight at a comfortable altitude, just to see how slow you can actually fly the plane. If the cg is correct, I would not think that flaperons would be needed to slow the plane. 3D planes of this type are usually very stable at slow speed.
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Just get a friend with a BIG net to catch it with! <div>
</div><div>There are many good lines of advice here, foremost of all is making sure the plane is properly balanced and aligned. If your CG is good and all the throws are equal and the wing and stab are in line, then maybe the plane is too heavy. You really shouldn't need flaperons on a plane that wasn't designed with them in the first place, and for all we know could be the very reason the plane sinks like a rock. </div><div> </div><div>I have an Eflite T-34 that is designed for beginners with Flaps and droops. I tried the flaps once, the plane flew like S**t, I have not used them since, and found they aren't needed anyways, the plane floats in nicely, but drops like a rock if they are deployed. </div><div> </div><div>That actually may come in handy next year when I fly, the farmer is probably going to be planting corn, so would be nice to be able to come over the top of the corn and just drop onto the strip. Shoot just realized I will probably need a box to stand on too so I can see over the top of the corn. </div><div> </div><div>Stupid farmer. </div> |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Flapperons. But be careful, different planes act differently than others when they are used. Best to test them at a high altitude, so if your plane wing stalls suddenly, then you know your model can't handle it. Another way to slow up the plane is to shift the CG back a little, you might be nose heavy. With my planes I move the rudder back and forth to slow my speed down, just like I do with the full size aircraft when I'm coming in too high.
Pete |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
There is no reason you can't get that model into a 100meter long strip even with tree's on either end. The problem is your technique. Your going to have to fly it different than that carbon Z yak. Take the model up high, and practice flying it around with about 1/4 stick deflection of up elevator and with just enough power to maintain altitude. When done correctly you should be maintaining altitude without speeding up or slowing down. Do this with varying degree's of stick deflection and power settings until you know what stick deflection and power setting gets you the slowest possible flying speed without a stall. Now that you know that position you want to use a slightly higher power setting and slightly lower up elevator stick deflection setting.
Now start practicing approaches using the above known settings. When done correctly you should be able to hold a bit of elevator and adjust your throttle position to increase or decrease your descent rate, which will also help adjust the touchdown aiming point on the runway. |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
ORIGINAL: invertmast There is no reason you can't get that model into a 100meter long strip even with tree's on either end. The problem is your technique. Your going to have to fly it different than that carbon Z yak. Take the model up high, and practice flying it around with about 1/4 stick deflection of up elevator and with just enough power to maintain altitude. When done correctly you should be maintaining altitude without speeding up or slowing down. Do this with varying degree's of stick deflection and power settings until you know what stick deflection and power setting gets you the slowest possible flying speed without a stall. Now that you know that position you want to use a slightly higher power setting and slightly lower up elevator stick deflection setting. Now start practicing approaches using the above known settings. When done correctly you should be able to hold a bit of elevator and adjust your throttle position to increase or decrease your descent rate, which will also help adjust the touchdown aiming point on the runway. I was trying to do it with Carbon-Z as a practice, but so far I didn't get a sense of this balance of up elevator and just right power to be close to the hovering mode, but still moving ahead with much reduced speed. I need a bit more practice. Thank you everyone for helpfull inputs you provided for me. I am going to try all the tips you have mentioned and will see, which one is working the best for me. Thanks again! I appreciate you help. Andrei K. |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Somewhere around here on RCU there is a thread that shows how to do all sorts of maneuvers with the stick inputs involved. By memory it was done on a Simulator by a quite experienced pilot. One of those moves is called a Harrier - go practice it. I will leave the searching for the thread to you unless someone else can post the link.
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
I saw a guy at the field put the elev. and ailerons on a switch when he touched down they all went up and it stopped like it was in sand.
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
If your plane is properly setup as per the previous posts, then do some upper airwork - get to a safe height and practise slow flying - flying just above stall speed, allow it to stall and get the feel for the plane at slow speed. Then put a landing marker on the runway, and one to stop after landing. You may find (only if your plane is properly setup) that it maybe just nerves/uncertainty that makes you come in fast... also, try landing on a gras runway to get the feel - the grass will slow you down much faster than a tar runway.
Failing that, you can always plant someclover at the end of the runway...........http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif Cheers Bundu |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Set up airbrakes! work great . Bruce aa2dd |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
With control line we just shake it. Up and down a few times real fast. It scrubs off speed real quick, as your wing is the flap. You would need fast servos. Otherwise a circle before landing will slow you down a bit especially if you are too high like a deadstick.
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Trim the elevator for the speed you want to fly. Use your throttle to control descent.
Kurt |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Consider there is a politician on the runway and you have todo abombing runon him...... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif
Cheers Bundu |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
heheh if I said on here what we did last year with a certain politicians head on the runway, I would be banned! :) LOL
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
I fly a Funtana 90 off a 200 foot/65m strip and have lots of runway to spare. I do have flaperons available, but only use them occasionally. I only have about 10 degrees mixed in though. I limited them to keep the tip stall at bay, and have a bit of drag/lift avail for landing. It flies very well on the approach, flying it right down to the deck with just a hint of flare.
I agree with the above posts about the possibility of a fwd CG, and cannot express more the importance of setting up the approach on the downwind leg and flying a STABLE approach to the ground. It wouldn't be too much fun if airliners didn't do this every time they landed. I don''t do 3D stuff, but think the airplane flies and looks great. I do basic acro, and to me touch and go practice is something everybody needs. Just go out and dedicate a few batteries doing this. Doing this will make you better. Landing is the hardest thing to do. Practice makes perfect. Will |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Are power on/off trim the same? When the plane is trimmed for level flight at full power, what does it do when powered down for a landing? With no elevator input, is the glide slope too steep? It is that glide slope that has a great deal to do with landing speed. Likely given your chronic difficulty slowing down, the glide probably needs to be shallower.
As Minnflyer pointed out, the most common cause of this is a CG too far forward, which causes both the steep glide slope and the lack of elevator authority to hold the nose up when the plane approaches stall. Such a setup also requires excess elevator on takeoffs, which sometimes is a savior because it forces one to have adequate air speed for wing lift before getting airborne, one of the reasons why forward cg is preferred over an aft cg. Keep in mind however, that CG might not be the problem of too steep of a glide slope. A prevalent problem is the plane is trimmed for high power rather than low power. Old free flighters had it right, a plane should be trimmed for power off, ie establishing a proper glide slope that keeps enough air speed to prevent stall but not too steep to waste altitude. RC flight should observe the same trim discipline. That means the plane is trimmed for low power and corrected for high power, keeping in mind these corrections are done after the CG is believed to be correct. Strangely, the way I do this is to first trim the plane for high power so that there are no flight difficulties flying under power. Then observe the glide slope... is it proper, too shallow or too steep? If it is too shallow (lingers aloft) and the plane slows too much and flirts with stalling, then mix some down elevator at low throttle setting. If it is too steep, mix some up elevator trim at low throttle. When happy with the off powered glide slope, compare the elevator trim positions. They are the clue to what to do next. It might be an engine thrust change is needed or a decalage correction... and those can be discussed in another thread. Bottom line, good landings are much easier with a proper glide slope. Too steep and the plane comes in too hot. Too shallow and the plane slows too much and flirts with stall. |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Just a thought, well more of a blast from he past. Way back in the day I flew 1/2A quite a bit. I never made good landings until after I started flying 1/2A. Every landing was a dead stick and every landing had to count. It made me a better pilot.
Maybe try some dead stick landings????? |
RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
Or spot landings in a glider.
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RE: How to slow down plane while landing?
akouzmit
If you set your trims so that your low throttle position allows the engine to "idle"; not stop; that will help. A propellor "disk" provides much more drag, that just a stopped blad. Les |
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