Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Hi All,

I'm building a .25 Seamaster this winter, and I was thinking...

Wouldn't it be nice if when flying off the lake on a calm evening I had a way to make some smoke and do a few minutes of aerobatics...

So - I know absolutely nothing about smoke systems and I'm looking for all the advice I can get...

Remember this is a .25 size plane - so nothing overly heavy...

I thank you all in advance...

RD :)

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Good luck! There are some systems out there that work strictly off the muffler pressure, but I have no experience with them. I am, however very familiar with the TME simple smoke pump. It is a good system, but will add considerable weight to your small plane.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Unless you plan on using a small four stroke, forget about it. A .25 two stroke won't put out enough heat to make good smoke. The weight will also be a problem. Maybe you could put some lights on it instead, they look great late in the evening.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

What about that "smoke stick" I saw in the latest Tower catalog. It looks like a firecracker. It says it provides smoke for about 3 minutes.

Anyone use one of those?

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I keep seeing posts about smoke on small engines and there not being enough heat, What would be the smallest you could go to get enough heat. The largest plane I have room for is a 40 size plane so would a 40-46 be enough.

Dauntae

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I have tried to get smoke on a .90 two stroke, it wasn't worth the effort. On the ground there is alot of smoke, but put it in the air and it looks like a slightly heavy exhaust trail. My next attempt is with a 1.8, we shall see.

That being said I have seen .52 four strokes pumping out tons of smoke, really good results. They had preheating coils wrapped around the outside of the muffler to get the smoke oil just a bit hotter before it actually gets injected into the muffler. I had a preheater on my .90 too but it didn't help much at all.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Here's another thought... why not run a separate glow plug on the muffler? You could set it to light with a switch and it would burn the smoke oil.

Or would it cause some sort of spectacular explosion which at first would be cool until you saw you plane raining down in pieces.

Mike

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

G'Day Rdemy, hope to see you at the field one of these days ;)

Dubro has a smoke valve system that works off muffler pressure.

Instructions are at this location Cost is about $30-$40 Cdn for the components.

Both Alphonse and myself have installed this system in our bigger planes. Both are using a Saito .91 and we get ample smoke. What has been mentioned here is true in that a .25 2 stroke would probably not generate enough heat to "cook" the smoke oil enough. You would just end up spitting raw smoke oil into your lake where you fly.

I tried some preheating smoke manualy in my Saito .56 but didn't get as much smoke as the .91. Worth trying but I'm not sure if your .25 can pull it off.

If you want to see how it's setup, I'll have the Hog at the field on Saturday, stop on by and see.

Nuker

Smoke
 

I'm with nuker, you will have to preheat the smoke oil for your best chance of getting good smoke. However, I too am not sure if it is worth the effort. I've seen .40 size models with smoke... could hardly tell the diff between smoke on/off.

I have a YS140L wit a slimline smoke muffler with preheat chamber. It smokes, and you can tell the smoke is on, but it isn;t very dense. Now my DA100 on the other hand will smoke pretty good, but that's a big engine. Even better, a 3W240 will really pump out some serious smoke.

The key to good (dense) smoke is heat. A 2 cycle .25 will not deliver much heat. I don't think a extra glow plug in the exhaust will come anywhere close to adding enough heat... couldn't tell if that was a serious suggestion or a joke.

Good luck anyway.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Hey Rdemy! ;)

As a couple of others have mentioned the 2 stroke .25 just won't cut it. Even if it did the Seamaster II is a little on the small side and you would probably end up with a heavy plane from the extra gear smoke requires. You will definitely need a pumped system unless you want to make the pod behind the engine way too long!

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Oh well,

Sounds like from experience a .25 is just too small for the heat and weight...

Maybe I'll build it to the plans and just enjoy the beautiful flight's I'll get off the water...

Smoke will have to wait for a bigger plane. :(

Thanks all for the advice...

RD :)

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I have a YS91 with a TME Simple Smoke Pump. It puts out the most amazing smoke you ever want to see. And there's no pre-heating.

It took me about a year of messing with it before I got it right, but believe me... I got it RIGHT!

There are a few things that you need to get good smoke. It's like when you want to make fire, you need heat, fuel, and oxygen. To make smoke, you just need heat and fuel, BUT... they need to be the right amount of BOTH!

First of all, I would be very hesitant to use a system that works off of muffler pressure. Even the TME system leaves something to be desired as there are times when it will stop working, (usually if it has been off for a minute or two) and I have to fly at idle for a while before it kicks in again. The B&B system is the best, but it only works on BIG engines.

So, you want a good pump to be sure that you are delivering a good, constant flow of oil to the muffler.

Next, you need heat. I don't pre-heat the oil, but I did wrap my muffler with a few layers of fiberglass cloth, wrapped that with aluminum tape, and then wrapped it with some thin copper wire to keep the tape from vibrating off.

My next consideration was fuel. I'm a cheapskate, so I looked into home-brews. But everyone had a different recipe, and most of them used things like fuel oil, diesel fuel, kerosene, etc. All these petroleum products will leave a residue on your plane that can attack the coverings adhesive. I didn't want that, plus several people mentioned how those mixtures stink up your car, and workshop, etc. So, after doing some extensive on-line searching, I found Ultrasmoke. Now there may be others, but this is what i use and it is fabulous! It's not a petroleum product, so it won't attack your covering, and you can use ANY kind of fuel line. It also doesn't stink, in fact I can't smell anything. it costs $10 a gallon from these guys:

http://www.aircapitalhobbies.com/

10 buck is a lot of money, but for the smoke I get, it's worth it!

The next (and one of the most important) thing is a flow control device. Too much oil is as bad as too little heat. There's a picture of the one I made. It's very simple to make. you just run the oil line through the hole and pinch it with the screw. With the engine running at full throttle, and the pump on, you just tighten the screw until the muffler is getting the right amount of oil. You'll know when that happens, because your neighborhood will disappear in a cloud of smoke. :)

One of these days, when I have nothing to do, I'm going to try it out on a 40 (and maybe even a 25) engine. I think it might work, although you would still have the weight problem to deal with.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

And here's the smoke!

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

G'Day MinnFlyer

actually the pressure system described in that link I posted seems to work quite fine. The main issue was with the pressure valve. The standard plastic one tends to get clogged and you lose tank pressure after a few flights. There is a metal version, more $$$ but it retains the pressure in the tank. A simple 6 oz tank gives about 5-6 minutes of smoke.

The smoke oil is controled via the dubro valve and that is connected to a dial knob on the transmitter so you can control the flow.

Pre-wrapping a copper coil around the muffler header is a must for this system.

Different things work for different folks I guess but I know the system works great and real inexpensive to boot. (I'm cheap too :D)

Nuker

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Okay, what do we use for the preheater?

I find that 1/8 inch K & S copper tubing will work if you anneal it first. The trouble is it's hard to bend to small diameters, for example, around the exhaust tube of a 4 stroker, before the muffler.

The next smaller size, 3/32, is too constricted, and doesn't permit sufficient flow. Tough to construct headers or junctions for multiple 3/32 tubes.

Does anyone have a source for good preheater coil tube?

Does anyone drill holes in their 4 stroke mufflers and run in the smoke tubing?

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I have only made one preheater coil. I filled 1/8" brass tubing with salt and then bent it into a coil. It worked pretty well, the tubing didn't collapse at all. I have also heard of sticking braided cable into the tube before bending and then pulling it out after, I didn't have any cable when I made my coil so the salt had to do.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Or you can pack with sandbox sand, fill with water and freeze. I ended up with the water method and it worked for me.

Bob aka Nuker

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

You know, I've been thinking about MHawakers idea,
post #7....wouldn't that be the reciprocating engine equivalent of afterburning?

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I've been thinking about my idea too. I've got a Cap 20L that is desparately in need of smoke.

I always thought that you could run tubing out through the wings and use a glow plug on the end to burn the oil.

hmmmmm. It would need a pretty strong pump. Maybe I could set up a test system first, off an airplane.

to be continued.........

Mike

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

MHawker, that better be one HOT F#@&ING glow plug! LOL

As to the preheater... Go to an Auto Parts store. They have 1/8" copper tubing that bends like a dream. I just picked some more up yesterday at a whopping 68 cents a foot. I have had NO trouble wrapping it aroung things as small as a pencil.

smoke
 

hi guys i have a os 1.60 in a h9 540 with a jett muffler on it how can i hook it up with out changing muffler theres no pressure fitting on the jett i also have a cline on it also.
any info would be appericated

thanks dennis

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

All you need to do is to tap a hole for a pressure fitting right where the exhaust enters the muffler. Then you could use the TME smoke pump to pump the oil.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

:)
thanks minnflyer i'll try that

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I've been using 2 "Don Harris" smoke mufflers and pumps on my Enya 1.20 4-strokes for over 10 years now. They work great. Anyone know if Don Harris (California) is still making smoke systems?

Two Cycle Smoke System
 

Been working on this smoke thing for the past few months. Got it resolved using a .40 engine and got very impressive smoke. Kept the weight to an absolute minimum also.

The whole process can be seen here:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...r=2&forumid=58

The attached photo shows the results.

Bob J..

Two Cycle Smoke System
 

Here's a complete system setup diagram as we installed it in Smokey. Recently bought an OS 160 two cycle and applied this setup to a test bed for break in and smoke test. Filled the back yard with smoke after about 10 seconds of running smoke.

Bob J.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Swift, I suggest you post this in the products announcement forum. It's against RCU policy to post commercial products in the regular forums. Thanks

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Swift071
which smoke oil did u use?
what muffler for the os-160?
any kind of pre heater?
how much oil/tank do u rec. for the os-160 for 5-7 minutes of smoke?

thanks

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

RE:
which smoke oil did u use?
what muffler for the os-160?
any kind of pre heater?
how much oil/tank do u rec. for the os-160 for 5-7 minutes of smoke?

Smoke oil: Been using regular diesel fuel from the gas station. That's diesel making smoke in 11 degrees. Tried the Super Dri once. Can't tell the difference, except for price. The way fuel prices are going though, the diesel price is catching up to the Super Dri.

Muffler for OS 160: Using Slimline #6018 Large Volume Pitts

Preheater: Made my own, 1/8 brass tubing wrapped tightly two revolutions around cylinder close to head.

How much oil: I am guessing 25 - 30 ounces for 5 to 7 minutes. Made a 30 ounce fiberglass tank to fit a Sig Sukhoi I ordered back in July. Going to run this test bed a few more times. Will probably be able to tell you to the second real soon. I would also like the answer to this question. Can you believe how well this thing smoked in 11 degrees?

Bob J.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Swift071


looks like its smoke very well in the cold have u flown the system yet. are you using a resistrictor to control the amount of fuel you are burning?

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Have not yet flown the system. Been developing it since November. OS 160 engine is new. Breaking it in on 10% nitro while testing smoke components at the same time.

Restrictor: What is a restrictor? Using the system exactly as layed out in the diagram above.

Bob J.

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I don't think that a .25 will do it. I have an Ultimate with an Os 120 4 stroke a TME pump and I put what they call a remote needle valve in the side of the airplane and I can control the correct amount of fuel to the muffler. I am using Dri Smoke and I get plenty of smoke.

:o
Yagger

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Swift071
how did the system work 4 ya?

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

WOW....This is a old thread im interested too

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Has anyone ever tried "fog juice" or "haze fluid" originally intended for indoor fog or haze machines in a 2 stroke? Seems like they wouldn't have to be heated as much as oil based smokes and haze fluid doesn't have to be heated at all IIRC.

Dave

RE: Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

Try the saito smoke muffler by EJRS they sell here on RCU for about$25-35 and work excellent!! they work with most saito!!

RE: Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I plan on putting a smoke system in a new plane with a DLE 30 gas engine. I want to know if there is an advantage in using a special muffler (ie: with a coil inside) and if so, who makes one

RE: Let's Talk SMOKE!
 

I am interested in what would be the best fluid? The diesel sounds good. Also the "fog juice" What are the experiences? Of course, I want to try to clean mine up some. I am currently using the Bennett's stuff.