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KMP F-7F Tigercat

Old 01-29-2017, 02:03 AM
  #2301  
Bob Paris
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Hi guys,
I do appreciate your input.

I need to know the size of the cowls...inside diameter.

I need to know if the model builds tail or nose heavy ?

Is there a small radial engine's that will fit into the cowls...?

I will now be going to need larger engines then the DLE 20RA's I now have...so I am looking at engines from 26cc to 30cc class.

If no small radial engine available and the cowls are less then 9.25" wide...I will go with two DLE 30's. If the cowls are wide enough...I will go with two twin cylinder 30cc RCGF engines. The RCGF twin cylinder engines are 9.25" wide.

I will do my build here in this Thread...

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 01-29-2017 at 02:09 AM.
Old 01-29-2017, 04:06 AM
  #2302  
Whiskey Bravo
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I am running DLE 20 RAs with Sierra retracts and the Cat flies great. I will add I kept it light by not using gear doors and smoke etc.

Last edited by Whiskey Bravo; 02-11-2017 at 05:20 AM.
Old 01-29-2017, 05:03 AM
  #2303  
Lifer
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What props are you using on your DLE 20's?
Old 01-29-2017, 08:01 AM
  #2304  
Whiskey Bravo
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Mejzlik 16x8.
Old 01-29-2017, 09:29 AM
  #2305  
Lifer
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If you'd like to go faster than the 16x8, try the APC 17x8N (narrow) prop. All my 20cc warbirds use this prop now over the APC 16x8. Surprisingly, it's also quieter!

FWIW
Old 01-29-2017, 06:21 PM
  #2306  
rvnrcer
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Bobby,

Insides of my cowls are 8.5". Just measured them

Keith
Old 01-29-2017, 06:37 PM
  #2307  
Bob Paris
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Hay Buddy,

Thanks for the input...

Does the model build up tail or nose heavy...do you know?

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby
Old 01-29-2017, 06:45 PM
  #2308  
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Definitely tail heavy. I added weight up near the nose gear. Don't remember how much but I did put servo's back in the stab for elevator. Rudder servo is up front and is Pull-Pull cable.
Old 01-29-2017, 07:00 PM
  #2309  
Bob Paris
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Hay Lifer,
I found the Xoar 17 x 6 is the best prop for my 20cc gas engines. I have flown RCG, RCGF and DLE 20cc gas engines...Both rear exhaust and standard side exhaust model engines (Both RCG and RCGF were great running engines, no issues and ran well for me. I had issues with the DLE carbs...but all I did to get the DLE 20cc gas engines to run properly, was to pull off the carb, dis-assemble the carb...toss all of it into my sonic cleaner in alcohol and then after, reassemble the carbs. After this they ran like a top-I have had two RCG, one RCGF and three DLE 20cc gas engines).

The Xoar 17 x 6 pulls hard and if you have a hard landing the prop will brake and you have a better chance of saving your prop drive shaft from going out of center or bending with a wood prop, then an APC hard plastic or carbon fiber prop.

Now I am kind of beating my drum here with this...but I know longer use plastic or carbon fiber props. I stoped using them a long time ago when I witnessed a fellow club member lose a couple of fingers and seriously hurt himself. So with this bit of reality...I moved over to wood props. In years past all we had were wood props, accept for Cox engine use...these were all plastic. But all my Cox engine collection is no longer used...and my new ones are kept in storage.

APC props are good performing props...no way around it. I used them for years...with great results. My preference today is only wood props if I can get them in the size I needed.

Soft Landing Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 01-29-2017 at 07:05 PM.
Old 02-01-2017, 04:53 PM
  #2310  
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Bob I plan to put VVRC 40cc twins in mine with 18x10 Beila props but if those props dont do well which they normally dont I will run APC17x14 props
Old 02-10-2017, 10:59 PM
  #2311  
Bob Paris
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Hay Air Rapter,
Your going to love the VVRC 40 cc twin cylinder engine. I have one and it is one very smooth running gas engine. I was surprised at its power and just how sweet it ran. Since the model builds tail heavy, installing a bit larger engine may help with the dead weight needed to get the C.G. right. I personally dislike (with a passion) adding dead weight to a model. I will go with larger batteries and even larger engines, if the larger engines do not mess up the cowl. The added power is always nice...and this ain't no Piper Cub...so a bit more power will always be nice. I do tend to over power my models, but dealing with the winds and turbulence at our flying field...the added power is nice. To slow and to much power can re-kit a model faster then you can throttle down...so application of power must be done with care.

RCGF 21 twin .. 2.02 lbs. / 2.8 hp @ 8,500 rpm /13.6 lbs static thrust. $339.99

DLE 20/20RA....1.92 lbs. / 2.5 hp @ 9,000 rpm / 13.8 lbs static thrust. $249.99/$284.99

FG-19R3 3-Cylinder...2.65 lbs./ @ 10,000rpm 19.18 13 x 9 ~ 15 x 6 Prop

RCGF 30 twin... 2.53 lbs. / 3.7 hp @ 7,500 rpm / 17.2 lbs static thrust $369.99

DLE 30 .... 2.40 lbs. / 3.7 hp @ 8,700 rpm / 17.0 lbs static thrust. $284.99

DLE 35RA .... 2.77 lbs. / 4.1 hp @ 8,500 rpm / 19.8 lbs static thrust. $349.99

DLE 40 Twin ... 3.30 lbs. / 4.8 hp @ 8,500 rpm / 20.9 lbs static thrust. $469.99 (width of engine 7.08" + spark plugs)

VVRC 40 Twin. 2.88 lbs. / 4.6 hp @ 7,400 rpm / 22.0 lbs static thrust $439.00 (width of engine 7.78" including Spark plugs)

The DLE 40 twin may be up to 9+ inches wide with standard CM-6 plugs. I read of a V2 of the engine with slanted plugs but I am unable to locate this information on the DLE web site. VVRC came out in the beginning with both the MC-6 & 1/4-32 plugs, but only sells the 1/4-32 plugged engine now and what I have run.

So its up to how much $$$ you want to send...and I must admit...the VVRC is not much heavier then the DLE 30 or 35RA. and out powers both in static thrust and horse power.

I am not sure just how this will end...but I am now leaning to obtaining a second VVRC 40 twin cylinder for my model. The RCGF 30 twin cyl. looks good to and its a very smooth running engine. No nose weight is a big plus for me...but with nearly four times the horse power then two DLE 20's (with the VVRC 40cc twin)...I am wondering what to do. My model is inbound from Tomas...and its #3 on build board...so we will see.

Any comments....???

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 11-12-2017 at 08:47 PM.
Old 02-13-2017, 11:57 AM
  #2312  
CHARLES WINTER
 
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Hi Bobby, My 2cents... I don't think the Tigercat AIRFRAME can handle the Full Power of the DLE 40. My CAT with FUJI 23s is a bit under power, but when doing aerobatics and coming out of a loop or a split S and even retarding power the airplane can reach speeds that will make the airframe SHAKE. The FULL size Tigercat was designed for SPEED and it's frontal area was kept to a minimum. People will always SAY, "You can always Retard The Throttle" but from my YEARS of experiance in many full size aircraft and 70 years plus of modeling, it's hard not to GO BALLS OUT at times. Another item to consider is PROP clearance if you will be flying off grass. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT.. Col.Chuck Winter
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:09 PM
  #2313  
Bob Paris
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Hay Charles,
You may be correct...and I am leaning to two twin cylinder 30's. You have a few years on me in the modeling world with me just over 60 years in the hobby. I did read where the all composition F7F's had a few wing failures...and I have never heard about the airframe shaking at high speed. This is the first time I have read this...and I will most defiantly be looking to make sure I don't have this happen to me.

I to flew all my life professionally, but mostly rotor wing and heavy lift. I do have 6.5K in L-18 and C-45's flying for Fed-x in the 80's...but mostly flying those infernal rotating machines for 38 years. Army trained...and two tours in South East Asia.

I understand that 20~23 cc gas engines may be marginal in power...and 26 cc gas engines seem to come to life when used on this airframe. When I ran my VVRC twin 40 cc gas engine...I was surprised at just how smooth it was. So maybe dual twin cylinder 30cc gas engine may be the ticket.

I plan on full gear doors and also cockpit kit on my model. I am not sure how I will rig my gear doors, but seek a simple system I used on other models using springs and nylon line. I have Sierra retracts coming also for the model (best retracts made-much better then ESM's or C.J.'s) and these are built robust and work well. Yes Sierra's are pneumatic and they do have larger air pistons to drive the gear, so a larger air tank is needed. I also have the Robert auto pneumatic sensor for auto retract if the air tank pressure gets to low...I used this on my ESM F6F w/Sierra gear and worked perfectly. The only other addition will be a twin sync for the engines, but this unite and the robert pneumatic sensor will add just a few ounces to the model.

Thank you for your input and advise.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 02-13-2017 at 06:27 PM.
Old 02-13-2017, 11:31 PM
  #2314  
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Hi Bobby, Thanks for your reply. A bit of HUMOR --- I have instructed in AF Jets and endless R/C airplanes. An interesting thing happens when I have a R/C student that finally SOLOS. Many of them go into the FANTASY mode and want to build a Warbird with retracts and all the whistle and bells. I try to bring them back to Reality and suggest a Intermediate airplane and build up their experience. Some listen and some don't. I end up FIXING - ADJUSTING many of the FANTASY modelers airplanes. I mention these experiences because I sense a bit of FANTASY with all you want to do. I don't mean you can't do it, I think you will be TESTED when installing Main Gear doors and VERY TESTED when you get to the NOSE Gear door and the 2 small doors behind the nose gear. I probably have the only Tigercat with all doors activated with Retract servos. My design and installation is covered in this Thread back many pages. Also my design of the Nose Gear lower unit that allows turning of the nose gear and leaving the Nose Door straight forward. KNOCK WOOD, I have never had a single landing gear problem. I know you can handle the CHALLENGE. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me, I MAY have the answer. Chuck
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:00 AM
  #2315  
Bob Paris
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Hay Charles,
Thanks for your input and vast knowledge. I will be looking at your gear door installation and to the challenge. I was one of the lucky ones and had a gift of instrument flying...so most my career was teaching instruments in helicopters. My main challenge was teaching instruments with a nice 100 foot hook below me and that was at best interesting...and at its most challenging...Holy S*** Bat Man. I see you have a picture of a Bear tail feathers...nice. I never managed to get into fast movers...but loved flying radial engines and some how managed to get stuck in the 30 and 40's fixed wing aircraft-never a regret on this one. By the way...if you get a new airline pilot in your mix...asked him if he ever shot an ADF fixed card approach to minimums, partial panel ? Most wont even know what your talking about. And the last time I looked into a new aircraft all I saw was flat panel T.V.'s. I know I am aging myself, but the sound of two P&W R2800 at full power was pure music to my ears. I know I never broken the sound barrier, but doing 350kts at 20,000 feet with a pair of piston pounding radial engine was kind of cool too. You just got to love how Lockheed built their airplanes.

I am still awaiting my Tiger Cat and can't wait to start the build.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 02-14-2017 at 04:12 AM.
Old 02-19-2017, 06:01 AM
  #2316  
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Heavy engines make for a heavy plane on landing, no matter how much extra power you have during loops. Mine has 1,34 hp per side of input power, which is fine. I mounted the servos under the wing instead of in the tail, and I didn't add any nose weight. My flight battery is mounted right in front of the leading edge of the wing. All that is in the nose is the nose gear. AUW weight of mine is 23 lbs/10.5 kg. Mine has the built up center wing, not the composite center wing. I run 21x14,7" props, geared to spin 3800 rpm static.

Last edited by tahustvedt; 02-19-2017 at 06:12 AM.
Old 02-19-2017, 06:38 PM
  #2317  
airraptor
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Yes you dont need a lot of power but have ever seen one of these fly by at 150+mph Just awesome. One of guys is flying his with YS 185's and is a very sweet sounding plane. I would like to find a 40-50cc flat twin four stroke but havent found one yet. I have a Bridi smaller on for 61 two strokes I plan to put YS 115 Warbird Specials in it and I also have the large Bridi Tigercat That I will put GT-80s in it. Just have to find the time lol Charles I hope one day I can make it down there to meet up with you.
Old 02-19-2017, 09:54 PM
  #2318  
Bob Paris
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Hay Tahstvect,
How old is your Tiger Cat? Is it an older kit...or a newer kit? I ask because I wonder what the kit weights today...just the bare airframe it self. The newer airframes seem to come in at heaver weights then the first kits...and would love to know what these kits weight out today. Just bare bones...

A good set of DLE 20RA''s will weight in at 3.8 lbs. plus prop and prop nut or spinner. A pair of RCGF twin cylinder 30's at just over 5 lbs, plus prop and spinner. A pair of DLE 30's will be just at 4.8 lbs, plus the prop and spinners. So we are talking about one pound and a couple oz's difference between the 20cc class engines and the 30cc class engines. Twin engine models, with single cylinder engines will make a good bit of vibration...and why I am looking at smaller twin cylinder engines.

I am still undecided what engine to go with and it will depend on the projected total weight of my model. If I am able to keep it under 28#'s, I will go with VVRC twin cylinder 21cc gas engines. If over this weight, I may go with twin cylinder 30cc gas engines.

I am not into electrics...so I have no idea how to compare these to each other. I am going with gear doors, Sierra Retracts and a twin sync. I will use HD1501BBMG servo's...for I have had excellent luck with these so far. By the time I weight in on receiver batteries, ignition batteries, servo's and all the required electronics...I will know what engines to fly with. I will weight out my airframe out of the box...then my leaning gear, servo's, batteries, fuel system and all electrics. After this...I will decide what engines to fly with.

I am leaning towards twin cylinder engines...for I love the low vibration of these engines. My VVRC 40cc gas twin is so smooth, it really surprised me...I mean nearly glass smooth even at full power. Yes I balanced my props...but I do this will all my props today.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 02-19-2017 at 10:00 PM.
Old 02-19-2017, 11:17 PM
  #2319  
tahustvedt
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Mine is old, from 2010. The ones with the composite center wing is a little heavier, but not ten pounds heavier. I ditched the heavy wheels and used HS 225MG servos all around to save weight. I 3D-printed my own scale wheels instead from plastic and rubber.
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:45 AM
  #2320  
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I made a embarrassingly bad mistake on the second flight when I had to land in gusty crosswind. Still, the Tigercat behaved like a trainer and didn't stall despite my ridiculous stick input when I had to abort the landing. Here's a short clip to demonstrate how well behaved a light Tigercat is when I brainfart and mess up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLMNYIsrIjw
Old 03-24-2017, 12:46 PM
  #2321  
Bob Paris
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Good Morning Gentlemen,

My kit arrived from Tomas today Air Freight...and it saved me over 65% on shipping costs to Maui. The only issue I found was a cracked canopy...and that was because were it was packed in the kit box...and the fact that some one in air freight dropped the box on one corner and split the corner open where the canopy was placed. The kit is awesome...and surprised at the quality of the fiberglassing. I am going to weigh each part and get the empty weight of the airframe before assembly. Then as I as finish assembling each part...I will weigh that part. I am hoping to get this model flying under 26#.

HayTahustvedt,
Mine has a built up center wing...so it may be more like your kit. The center section of the wing weighs in at 1lb. 14.18 oz. Now the nacelles and cowls are fiberglass. The nacelles are very robust-with a nice thick firewall. The port side nacelle weights in at 2 lbs. 11.21 oz. The starboard side nacelle weights in at 2 lbs, 10.79 oz. The cowls weights in at 4.7 & 5.1 oz. each, respectfully.

I am leaning to installing RCGF twin cylinder 20cc gas engines. I was looking at FG-R3 three cylinder gas engines...but at the cost of $850.00+ each...kind of expensive for me...and at 19.7cc. I am not sure if they will have enough power to fly the model...plus it will put this airframe nearly $3.8K ready to fly.

As to the twin cylinders my choice for these are because how smooth the engines run. There is almost no engine operation vibration with an apposed twin cylinder gas engine. My VVRC 40 twin is so smooth It amazed me...and my reason for choosing a twin cylinder gas engine. The VVRC 40cc gas twin cylinder engine will fit into the cowl with no modifications...interesting...and I have one already. Using two VVRC Twin Cylinder 40cc gas engines total weight is 6.67 lbs. and two twin RCGF 20cc twin cylinder engines weight in at 4.04 lbs. Twin RCGF 30cc twin cylinder gas engines weight in at 5.06 lbs. Two 20cc single cylinder gas engines weight in at 3.84 lbs...so twin cylinder 20cc gas engines or two 20cc single cylinder gas engines only weight less then 4 oz. difference...I can live with 4 extra oz., for the smoothness of a twin cylinder gas engine.

I have one RCGG twin cylinder 40cc gas engine already...so I am pondering the engine choice over weight and the cost. My dilemma....

Hay Charles,
I agree...there is nothing like model 15 feet off the ground flat out at full power. I must admit...I do at least half a dozen high speed flybys each flight...and I usually do them from a split "S" from altitude and as I start to pull out...add full power. My ESM F6F (may it rest in peaces) look so good, it brought a smile from ear to ear. All the guys in the club would always ask for more and a few stated I'm going to pull the wings off that model...but who cares...its an awesome sight. I love the sound of two stroke gas engines. A twin, twin cylinder gas engine model will really be a sweet note to my ear.

I am waiting for my Sierra retracts and other goodies coming from Tomas. They are inbound...but not here yet.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

Last edited by Bob Paris; 03-24-2017 at 11:06 PM.
Old 03-24-2017, 10:19 PM
  #2322  
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CONGRATULATIONS on getting your F7F --- You are now in for a "Change of Life" --- Good Bad or Ugly. ------ My F7F was purchased in 2007 and flown in 2008. It's first flight was with 2 RCV .91 engines. TERRIBLE, almost lost it. Got about 10 feet of altitude and that's where it stayed. Gently brought it around and landed it. My F7F is all fiberglass and I believe it was either the first batch or 2nd batch of airplanes. You hope to be under 26lbs ----- MERRY CHRISTMAS. Have FUN ---- Chuck Winter
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:48 PM
  #2323  
Bob Paris
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Aloha Gentlemen,
I unboxed all my F7F, put my hands on everything, weighed each part. My kit was complete and in perfect order. I repacked the model and I am waiting for the retracts and my choice of engine. But now I have a more educated guess on what engine I will end up buying.

ESM F7F Weights

1) Elevator………………………………………RT. Side – 4.81 oz.
Lt. Side - 4.73 oz.

2) Connecting wing & Tail Aluminum Tubes...2.7 oz.

3) Push rods………………………………………………………..3.16 oz.

4) Center Wing Sectioin……………………… 1# - 13.18 oz.

5) Rt. Wing Outer Wing Panel………………………12.87 oz.

6) Lt. Wing Outer Wing Panel…………………………..13.32 oz.

7) Fuselage + Top Cockpit……………………….4# - 11.43 oz.

8) Nose gear, Door……………………………………………...1.89 oz.

9) Main Landing Gear Door inserts………………….4.36 oz.

10) Wing Plastic Intakes…………………………………….2.01oz.

11) Rudder………………………………………………………………2.29 oz.

12) Engine Nacelles…………………Rt. side - 2# 10.73 oz.
Lt. side - 2# 11.12 oz.

13) Engine Cowels…………………… Rt. Side - 4.81 oz.
Lt. Side - 5.13 oz.


Total Weight Out Of The Box….9# + 104.86 oz. (6# 6 oz.)
15 lbs - 6 oz. (Dry Empty Weight)

I understand model builds tail heavy...and to be honest...I will add larger batteries and move every thing forward...to include larger engines, to add nose weight. So I may be going to a larger twin cylinder engine. 30cc minimum and that will add 5.06 lbs. for a total dry weight of 20 lbs. There is the weight of the Sierra retracts, Robart pneumatic air sensor, retract servo and air pressure system. The fuel tanks, fill valves and necessary plumbing. The radio system w/brakes....batteries (both for egine ignition and radios), engines, props and spinners. Full cockpit kit and full gear door retraction too. I don't; have a clue what the Sierra gear weights...but I will look into it. I know my model will easily dance near the 30 lb. gross weight area. Maybe not...and it all depends how light I can add all this stuff onto the model.

I am still woking out my projected gross weight for the model and what engine I will install. This is going to be one beautiful model and I am very impressed with what I received.

Soft Landings Always,
Bobby of Maui

P.S. for some reason...I am unable to up load pictures to you today. I will as soon as I figure this out.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:35 AM
  #2324  
tahustvedt
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For what it's worth, mine weighed 7153 g (15.77 lbs) out of the box, including the ESM retracts and wheels. My electric all up flying weight, including flight batteries is about 10.5 kg (23.1 lbs).
Old 03-27-2017, 07:00 AM
  #2325  
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Following along Bobby
I have one that came with a bad center wing section. After waiting for replacement parts that weren't coming, finally decided to fix it. Have made some progress, but project keeps getting sidelined. The Tigercat has such nice lines, part of me wants to fix everything and detail it, the other part just wants to get it in the air.

Maybe watching your build will get me going again
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