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Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Old 02-05-2010, 10:10 AM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Boeing,

Thank you VERY much for your feedback! Very interesting !! How do you feel about my commentreferencing "counterbalancing" the a/c w/ the props and opposite engine rotation? Wouldn't this "sweeten" the P-factors and some possible thrust problems?I understand that you probably overcame some of the EP thrust problems by "lightening" up your a/c...and for Control-line...probably and obviously (after looking at your vid) preferable. We all know that this is a "heavy" airplane 20++ lbs depending on engines, battery choices, placement of components, etc. Wonder if this counterbalancing theory would allow us RC'ers to fly a heavier a/c more efficiently ?? That's one of my main questions.

Flight characteristics, as you have so rightly put, are probably very similar between CL and RC...I'm just not too sure that in the RC world we would want to lighten up that much and possibly sacrifice "structural" integrity of a heavier a/c like this?? (That comment also comes from one who has very little/no CL experience). There are ways to "strengthen" this a/c w/o adding weight, but it certainly doesn't lighten it up as your mods do...

VERY interesting. If any other dedicated RC'ers have any thoughts on this...please "chime in" !!
Old 02-05-2010, 12:54 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

I have decided to dig the nose weight out of my build since the fuse is still empty making it easier.  This decision was based on the assumption that the motors and batteries (which are both in front of the CG) will weigh more than the glow engines would.  Also factored in was my dislike of adding dead weight to airplanes.

Does this seem like the right move to you guys? 
Did any of you other electric guys have trouble with CG after removing the nose weight?
Old 02-05-2010, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

mtjones,

I have not flown with the motors turning in opposite directions, although one of the electric RC fliers here in Chicago does that very thing with his big foam ME110. I'm not sure what the effect would be, i.e., if it would make that much difference on my CL model. He claimed it DID eliminate pulling to one side as he flew it as an RC model. I'd have to try it and find out on my Cessna.

As for the design of the aircraft, I compared a scale 3 view to the Top Flight wing and I can tell you it's about a perfect scale outline for size. That being said, the real aircraft had a small wing area for it's size and all things considered, a larger wing with the same weight will help lower the wing loading. My wing loading dropped from 54oz to 30oz/sq-ft. That's a huge difference in flight performance. And you're right about lightening up as aggressively as I did...I never loop my models or pull G's with it...I fly it in a scale-like manner, so the wing never gets stressed. That being said, the balsa over foam wing reinforced with fiberglass tape in the center section would give you a wing as light and a bit stronger than the factory supplied one.

Taking the nose weight out and putting receiver batteries or other equipment up there will save you an easy 1.5 lbs if nothing else!
Old 02-05-2010, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Boeing,

Thank you for your comments. We are talking this ALLin as we attempt to better the performance of the EP TF Cessna 310 ARF.

Flyinator...keep monitoring this post...we have not started our build yet. What engines, ESC, batteries, etc did you decide to go with? I followed TeamScalePilot's posts and build but didn't get much feedback after his first flight with the 2 X .60 RimFires.

How are you approoaching it and what do you think about this counterbalancing engine/prop idea?

Doc
Old 02-05-2010, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted



mtjones

I went with Hacker A50s
CC ICE 75 ESCs
7 x HiTec 5645
14x7 3-blade props
ar9000 rx
2 x 5000mAh 6s (if they fit.  My need to go with 4500 mAh)
Robart retracts
DX7 Tx

As for counter rotation, I would think if it were needed, the manufacturer would instruct as such.  It is easy enough to change later that I would build it with them both going the same direction first and only try the change if it does pull to one side.  Both firwalls/motors are clearly angled towards the wing tips. It is hard for me to believe it could really pull that much in one direction if set up correctly.</p>
Old 02-05-2010, 08:08 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Thanks Flyinator. Keep us posted on how it gows. I haven't decided which engines and batts, etc to go with yet. I chose a Scorpion (S-4025-12) motor over the RimFires for a thrust/wt reason in my TF Cessna 182 ARF. Thinking 2 smaller scorpions (.60 size in lieu of TeamScalePilot's 50-55-650s RimFires he used...same thrust/wt reason) with Castle creations 85A ESC. I like the 2 X 3S batt option (3200 Mah each) for each engine and the way they fit inhis plane. I did like that vid of the Hacker (he said "B50s"), but alsoanother vid shows 2 X A50-16Ss w/1X5,000 Mah 5S Lipo each engine.

Arethose A50s the ones you used and why did you arriveat that particular selection?

Doc Jones
Old 02-06-2010, 03:06 AM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Doc Jones,
In reference to counter rotating props i found this little tidbit: <font size="4" color="#800080">RE: Twin .020 Jr Skylark build thread</font> . I do however remember a post on a different site where that question was asked and answered by Top Flight with the reply being that it was not necessary or advisable because of the outboard thrust angles built into the nacelle's. Also mentioned was the use of dual outboard thrust in compensating for an engine out situation which would throw the plane into an immediate spin. Please note that I am referring to glow power but the same principles should apply on the EP. I however have never even heard of a single motor failure on a twin EP but I guess anything is possible.  I will try and search for that post again.

regards,
Tracy
Old 02-06-2010, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Hi i nead help to install the retraks door to the main and nose, big help, only this befor my plane is reddy too fly
Old 02-07-2010, 04:03 AM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

mtjones
I used the A50s because I use a couple A60s in some 50cc aerobatic planes and like them. I also use scorpions in a PA AMR Ultimate and a H9 Sundowner 50. That would have been my next choice.
Old 02-07-2010, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Thanks Flyinator. I'm leaning towards the Hackers myself, although I have a Scorpion in my Cessna 182 (40mm size...the S-4025-12). Which Scorpion "candidates" would you have considered for the 310?

Doc
Old 02-09-2010, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Yeppers, Tower has it on the discontinued list, maybe it will resurface in EP/Gas version, stronger wing center section and Different paint.

We can hope.
Old 02-09-2010, 09:33 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

The drawback with counter-rotating propellers is that if the propeller shaft thread is NOT set-up for counter-rotation.......................then the force of the motor spinning the counter-rotating propeller will loosen and spin off the propeller nut. With normal rotating motors..........the propeller shaft thread self tightens the propeller nut as the resistance of the propeller increases. That is the reason the backfiring(counter rotating) of piston engines causes the propeller nut to spin loose. The backfiring causes the propeller to counter-rotate and loosen up the propeller nut. If the propeller nut loosens up, this will cause a loss in propeller thrust and may cause the plane to crash.
Old 02-15-2010, 02:01 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Hi Guys,

Just a little heads up here.
I recently completed a transaction through the RCU market with<font color="#010101" size="3">chuanfeng</font>. He is one of the earlier builders on this thread and has built a <u>SUPER NICE 310</u>, as it turns out he is equally a<u>SUPER NICE GUY.</u>For myself, I have nothing but good things to say about him, a very big help with info &amp; pic's to help me with my build, I believe he has some accesories for the TF310 for sale or trade, you might drop him a PM.
Best regards,

Tracy
Old 02-17-2010, 05:42 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted


ORIGINAL: larrysogla

The drawback with counter-rotating propellers is that if the propeller shaft thread is NOT set-up for counter-rotation.......................then the force of the motor spinning the counter-rotating propeller will loosen and spin off the propeller nut. With normal rotating motors..........the propeller shaft thread self tightens the propeller nut as the resistance of the propeller increases. That is the reason the backfiring(counter rotating) of piston engines causes the propeller nut to spin loose. The backfiring causes the propeller to counter-rotate and loosen up the propeller nut. If the propeller nut loosens up, this will cause a loss in propeller thrust and may cause the plane to crash.


I've always tightened my prop nuts clockwise when viewed from the front, but my props have always spun counter-clockwise when viewed from the front. I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. Just kidding, I know what you are talking about... Nothing replaces a good wrench though.

My thought on the counter-rotating props was not because of a engine out situation, its more about rotating-mass. In a small nitro engine the only thing really spinning is the crankshaft and the counter-balance weight. It's pretty close to the centerline of the engine. My thought was more related to large/heavy brushless motors. The magnetics are obviously attached to the "spinning part" of the motor. It seems like there might be some gyroscopic issues with two of them spinning the same direction on diffrent wings. If they both are spinning to the right, wouldn't the "equal but opposite reaction" cause the airframe to roll left? Wasn't it the Gnome Engine that had that issue?

M
Old 02-18-2010, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Most twin engine RC flyers would not notice the "propeller torque roll". The engines are on the wings away from the center line axis of the airplane and thus there is less "propeller torque roll" effect. The "propeller torque roll" effect is most noticeable on single engine RC flyers while at slow landing speeds and then when the airplane is nosed up for a climb and full power throttle is applied at the same time the airplane wants to roll opposite the propeller rotation. The resistance of the propeller due to inertia and air resistance combine to "torque roll" the airplane in the opposite direction of the propeller rotation.
Most RC flyers don't want to bother with the complication of "pusher props" that are the same brand and same size as the "tractor props". When spinning in the air......one could not tell whether it is a "tractor propeller" or a "pusher propeller". It is a solution that is looking for a problem.
God Bless, always
larrysogla
Old 02-22-2010, 04:54 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Maidened my TF Cessna 310 yesterday, it was my first twin. I attribute much of the success for this first flight to all the information contained in this thread, thanks!

If your interested you can watch the highlights here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrqCvTfVzjA

Tom
Old 02-22-2010, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Congratulations Tom !!! I LOVE to watch this aircraft fly. Keep her flyin !!!!

Doc Jones
Old 02-22-2010, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted


ORIGINAL: Tip22v

Maidened my TF Cessna 310 yesterday, it was my first twin. I attribute much of the success for this first flight to all the information contained in this thread, thanks!

If your interested you can watch the highlights here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrqCvTfVzjA

Tom

Nice. Congrats. Perhaps a little less coffee for your camera man next time.
Old 02-22-2010, 09:28 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Great show, Congrat's
Old 02-22-2010, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Thanks guys.
Old 02-23-2010, 10:46 AM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Very nice job .Thanks for the video Tipp22v. I'm building mine with the same set-up. Won't be able to fly it till this spring
I'm trying to come up with an electric landing gear option for my Cessna 310. I know that Lado makes a system that fits into the Robart set-up. Lado was suppose to be coming out with a complete set-up. Has anyone else come up with an electric set-up other than the one mentioned? I'm thinking about modifying my hangar 9 P-51, 1/5 th scale gear but I still need a nose wheel set-up. Any ideas out there? Thanks, Bob.
Old 02-25-2010, 09:21 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

There's a build thread already started for modifying retracts for electric operation:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_92..._5/key_/tm.htm

From what I hear Lado is no longer making electric retracts...another company will be making them.
Old 03-03-2010, 05:44 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Thanks for the info Boeing314. I have all the hardware I need now for three retracts using the hangar 9 set-up with JR 791's. I may or may not go this route yet, The nose wheel will definitely be a challange. You guys that are using the twin sync with the 1.2v battery in the nacelle. How did you wire the battery for charging. Can I come right off of the battery with just a charge jack ? I would really appreciate seeing or hearing about some of your wiring for charging. Thanks much, Bob.
Old 03-03-2010, 06:49 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Hi is it somwon ho can help me her install gear doors and nose, big problems hvit the nose doors best regards Olav
Old 03-03-2010, 11:18 PM
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Default RE: Top Flite Cessna 310 posted

Tom,
Did you use the extension mufflers made by meesh on your OS55AX or did find another solution to install the pitts muffler ?
On your video, it looks like that you still have the original one.
Thanks.

P-Y

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