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Pica Duellist

Old 11-03-2002, 05:42 PM
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OldRookie
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Default Pica Duellist

OK...I'll start the first thread on the Pica Duellist.
I just bought a Duellist this summer, and it is competing with my DP Ultimate 120 for the next project.
This looks as if it will be a long building project, so I am going to ask for any suggestions on what to add, leave out, or improve on . Mine is the laser cut kit.
I have read most of the posts on Deja about the Duellist, but I think that this would be a good time to drag everything out again and get some fresh input. Every time I read old posts in Deja I always find myself wanting to ask about why a person did something this way or that, but the threads are several years old, and it would seem silly to post to them.
What is the MKII Duellist? What was different about it?
I have two OS 46FX engines that I would like to use for this plane.
Bring it on!

Greg
Old 11-03-2002, 10:23 PM
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Edwin
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Default Pica Duellist

I'm in the same predicament. Duellist, Extra, F-15 (DF). When I do build the Duellist, I have 2 saito .56's to put in. I'm also thinking about moving the retracts out one bay on the mains to install longer struts. I understand there is a ground clearance problem with the props when using retracts. Other than that, I'm gonna glass it.
Edwin
Old 11-03-2002, 10:51 PM
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JL1
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Default Pica Duellist

There is a ground clearance problem with the model. I would definitely do something to lengthen all three struts. Be careful with the nose gear strut length, If you get it even a little short and the plane has negative incidence on take off You will have to accelerate to Mach one before it catapults into the air.
Old 11-03-2002, 11:11 PM
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mucksmear
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Default Pica Duellist

If you are note averse to tail-draggers, converting the Duellist to a tail-dragging config will take care of the prop clearance problem, and also cut your weight down a little by eliminating the nose gear/wheel. This is what I did on mine.

Alternately, use 3 bladed props and you can go about an 1" smaller in diameter.

I also moved my mains out into the nacelles to provide a wider track.

My kit was the older die-cut kit. The wood for the ribs was extremely dense and heavy, I replaced it with medium density balsa and shaved 3 oz. in the ribs alone!!!

I thought the 7 degrees of downthrust on the engines looked excessive, but it's just right. Plane flies beautifully and tracks nicely in all phases of flight. Just build it as instructed.

A little more info on my duellist at this link:
http://www.elliotfan.com/temp/duelist.html

Hope this helps.
-E
Old 11-03-2002, 11:27 PM
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ChuckAuger
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Default Prop Clearance

Yep, you need some more, but it is easy to come by if you plan for it. Mine is jacked up 1 1/4" and is marginal on ground clearance with 9" diameter props. But this is a very simple mod..

Replace the light ply gear doublers (use retracts..it's worth it) and dihedral braces with 1/16" AC ply.

Carve, sand, shape until you are sick and tired of it, then take off some more. Trust me, this thing can turn out with some square looking naceles and nose.

I didn't change anything else, thrust-wise. Do a search for Duellist and there are a couple of threads that have the gear mod notes, and I have a construction sequence set of pics from a guy who I helped thru the building process. His turned out awesome.
Old 11-04-2002, 01:00 AM
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Default Pica Duellist

I guess I didn't think about covering with fiberglass cloth. Is this necessary? It seems as if all the wood in the kit is of the size and density that that wouldn't be necessary.

Do you think that mechanical retracts would work out with this plane, or would air be better. I have a tri-gear set of Dave Brown retracts.

What are you people using for a fuel system?

Mucksmear...Nice job on the plane. I have seen pictures of your plane on other web sites. The tail dragger version is certainly worth consideration. Love the tail draggers!

Does anyone have experience with carbon fiber for building? Could carbon fiber building techniques be used to good advantage on the Duellist? I don't know much about building light with carbon fiber and other com posits.

ChuckAuger...I was aware of the ground clearance problem. Are you saying you lengthened the gear 1-1/4" and still barely clear a 9" propeller?

Thanks for all of the responses so far. We have a good start.
Greg
Old 11-04-2002, 02:01 AM
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ChuckAuger
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Default Greg...

Mine is Monokote..no glass. Been flying WFO since '97 no sweat.

And yes..1 1/4" but I can taxi with 9", on pavement probably 10".

If built per plan, you will hate it. Trust me on this.

Mechanical retracts..no problem. Maybe the nose gear. I use air, the guy in the photo set used air.

I wish you would do the Duellist search. There are some good threads out there.
Old 11-04-2002, 05:41 AM
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mucksmear
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Default Pica Duellist

OldRookie,

I used some carbon fiber tow on the bottom of the lower spar, and the top of the top spar. I also tapered the spar depth, starting from the outboard side of the nacelles, tapering down to 1/8" thickness at the wing tips. Wetted it down with epoxy resin and stretched it taught . Sandwiched under the wing skins. In retrospect, I don't think you need to to do any of that. If the wood is decent and you do a tight build, it should be plenty strong.

Unless they've changed it, washout it built into the wing with the help of a stick "jig" laid down onto the plans. Pretty important to build a nice true wing, especially if you are unable to keep the weight down.

Also recommend using 2 ailieron servos, one infront of each aileron, rather than using a single aileron servo in the center and the supplied torque rods. Also let's you play with flaperons if you have mixing on your radio.

I glassed the airframe because I wanted to do a paint finish, and I was just interested in trying out the method. It's certainly not necessary, and Monkote or even Solartex or similar would be great too.

I used the supra mechanical retracts with a 1-3/4" piece of straight music wire going into a straight shock absorbing "robo-strut" by Robart. The music wire gets bent on the bouncy landings, but are easy to replace. The retract mechanisms seem to hold up ok, but they do start to get a little side to side play if you have a lot of rough landings (hard on the pivot bushings).

I used an interconnected 3 tank fuel system. Center tank is vented to the outside. Outboard tanks are set up as header tanks that stay full as long as there is fuel in the center tank- guarantees around 8 minutes of fuel for both engines, after that, the thirstier engine will finish whats left in its header tank first, which is usually another 4-6 minutes, but I "should" be on the ground by then.

-E
Old 11-04-2002, 05:40 PM
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Default Pica Duellist

the duelist looks and flys great, but if you haven't flown a twin, remember one thing. When you are flying it, if one quits, shut the other one down or pull the power. I was standing behind a friend flying his and one quit, he added power and it started to spin, I was behind him yelling, "shut it of, shut it off". He did and managed to save it just in time.

Saw one once in all Metalic blue. It was awsome. Have a blast.
Old 11-13-2002, 04:04 PM
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Default Pica Duellist

Does anyone have any good weight saving tips for building the Duellist?

Greg
Old 11-13-2002, 07:33 PM
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Default twin trouble

"the duelist looks and flys great, but if you haven't flown a twin, remember one thing. When you are flying it, if one quits, shut the other one down or pull the power........"


I thought the reason to have two engines is for more realibility.
Remember, twins have twice the chance of dead sicks.
\JG
Old 11-13-2002, 09:25 PM
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warbirdz1
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Default Duelist.....

Folks....Don't Panic!!!!...The Duelist will fly all day on one engine if its powered correctly....Had a duelist with 2 asp 46's and almost every flt flew half the time on one engine...til I switched to To S/T 51's then I intentionally had to fill one tank halfway because engine failures weren't occuring anymore....Follow instructions and keep it on light side and you'll be fine...Bill...
Old 11-13-2002, 10:31 PM
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mucksmear
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Default Pica Duellist

What warbirdz1 said! or mostly so at least. There are certain circumstances where reaction time is critical. That being said, I will attest to the fact that my Duellist will and has climbed (shallow climb that is) on one engine. I have also turned into the dead engine with no problems. But under both those circumstances, I was already at "cruising" speed and about 1/2-3/4 throttle.

If you're flying fast and level, and you lose an engine you might not even know you've lost one untill you try to climb or if you try to execute a tight turn, both being energy draining manuvers.

If you're going slow, and your power is high (for example on take-off) you will have much less time to react, and this is true with the majority of twins (tandem arrangements notwithstanding, etc.). So don't take off till you've reached vmc, or at least, keep your climbout shallow till untill you think you've passed vmc.

Weight reduction: Replace any excessivly heavy wood with ligher wood. Keep your finishing process light. I saw a beautifully finish Duellist with an automotive paint job over epoxy/fiberglass, real nice, but she weighed 17lbs!!!!! Go with iron on film or if you want to glass it, use 0.5oz or 0.75oz glass cloth with laminating/finishing epoxy resin.

-E
Old 11-14-2002, 12:51 AM
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William Robison
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Default Duellist 2/40

Gentlemen,
I too have a Duellist under construction.
One of the questions I can answer easily, as this is my third twin. VMC considerations can be eased considerably by making the vertical fin and rudder larger. On my first twin, a scratch built semi-scale Tigercat, I looked at the 3-views, and seeing the engines almost halfway out the wings was struck with "Engine Out Terror." I made the fin and rudder 150% scale. Result: this plane has its VMC just barely above stall speed, even with the engines so far out on the wings. More weight in the tail helps the Duellist balance, too.
But I cheated a little on the engines, also. I brought the nacelles a little closer than they should be. The thrust lines, both engines have 2 degrees down thrust with the wing at two degrees positive. The left engine has no side thrust, the right has 2 degrees right.
Unless you have a calibrated eyeball and the 3-views in hand, these changes are not obvious.
What is the Duellist MkII? This is the one I can answer easily. Dave Platt was the designer of the Duellist, The MkII is his upgrade of the original design. I know, the plans from Pica don't mention Dave Platt, it irritates me. I think Pica should give him at least a little credit.
Yes, preferably dual aileron servos, AND MUST have dual throttle servos. Separate throttle control is required to use the EMS "Twin engine sync system." Costs $80 from EMS/Jomar, but cosidering the total we spend on a twin that's a small part, since I put one on my second twin I don't want to be without it on a twin. My first has a single throttle servo, I have much fun getting sync, and usually don't get it anyway. With the EMS box, so long as the needles are reasonably close the engines always sing a perfectly tuned song. Fantastic.
Fuel system. Twin #1 has isolated fuel systems, separate tank in each nacelle. Twin #2 has only one tank, in the fuselage at CG. It has two clunks in it, each clunk feeding one engine. The clunk hose for the right (critical) engine is just a hair shorter than the one for the left, This way if I overstay my aerial welcome the right engine quits first. I did not have confidence that the engines would draw reliably at that distance, and I didn't want to use header tanks. The engines are pumped. Used one Perry pump inside each nacelle, up tight against the firewall, the hose to the crankcase is only an inch long.
The incidences and thrust lines on this bird are all zero-zero, I wanted the inverted flight characteristics to be the same as upright. It worked. Almost. I built it with mid-wings, the wings are not tapered, so I put in seven degrees of dihedral to add upright stability. It is ALMOST undetectable when inverted, upright it's rock steady.
Hope some of this rambling helps somebody.

A Twin is never a SIN!

WLR
Old 11-14-2002, 01:44 AM
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ChuckAuger
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Default Wow..

EDIT: I was confused..I thought all the twins you were describing were Duellists..., I see now that some were and some weren't...

I built mine per plans,(incidence wise) and it flies excellent upright, inverted, sideways, and engine out. I guess I'm just lucky??

I've had 2 engine outs, both from running out of fuel.

In fact I've said more than once that the Duellist is the epitome of aircraft handling, the word "grooves" was made for this plane.

Beside a knife edge pass (a crowd pleaser, the silloette is awesome), the airfield-long slow roll is also stunning.

I love mine just like it is, and if I built another, I wouldn't do anything different. But don't take this as critisism of any design changes you have made, we all know how we like to do things, and I respect anyones choice of alterations.

They are awesome planes in any way, shape, or form!
Old 11-14-2002, 02:32 AM
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William Robison
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Default Duellist

ChuckAuger, I will probably end up with only one change to the Duellist. I have a matched symmetric pair of K&B 40's, set up for horizontal mounting. This lets me stick both cylinder heads out between the nacelles and the fuselage. Gives a much nicer side view. From either side. Only from the top or bottom will you see engine bits sticking out. This was a hold up in starting construction, as I had to find reversed mufflers also. Finally found them, the company had gone out of business. I was able to raid the owner's remaining stock, (with his permission) and get the ones I needed. The only hardware item I'm waiting for now is the reverse rotation crank, it's been on order from MECOA/K&B for over a year - he keeps saying "Real Soon, Now." While there probably wont be enough difference in two engined flight to notice, when you reverse the right engine you no longer have a "Critical" engine. For that I think it's worth it. I have enough twin experience that I'm not a rank beginner, but I am far from expert. I will add, though, that in talking with Joe Bridi, (You've heard of the KAOS? That's just one of his designs) I found he agrees that all thrust and incidence angles should be zero-zero.

With a twin in the air, you're really somewhere!

WLR
Old 11-15-2002, 12:55 AM
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scalebldr
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Default duellist

hello all,
i have been reading most of the post for this plane and have noticed that alot of you are mentioning down thrust of from -3 to -7 degrees.i built one of the platt kits back in 80 or 81 and it was setup for 0-0-0-0 .wing stab and engines all were at 0 degrees.i used k&b 40's with the slimline mufflers that were about 2 inches long and had holes drilled in the bottom.rhom retracts and fuberglassed and painted with epoxy,flies fine i even went back to a set of m.a.n plans of the duellist mk2 by dave platt and it is setup for 0 degrees on everything also.does any one know when the change to the plans occurred or is the added downthrust added by the builders?i am only asking as i am going to scratch build a new one from the platt plans and will be using more powerful engines know.is the downthrut a result of the more powerful engines that are commonplace now?
Old 11-15-2002, 01:21 AM
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ChuckAuger
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Default That makes sense...

The main trouble (IMHO) with the Pica kit is the lack of prop clearance. I know where 2 Pica Duellists are (or were a while back) that were never finished after the builders found out how small the ground to prop clearance was going to be. This isn't hard to correct, but it was enough to shut them down.

Anyway, I couldn't see why anybody would design a plane with such an obvious flaw. But if the original had no down thrust, it would have had more prop clearance and the problem wouldn't have arisen. So it looks like the downthrust was added without thinking through to the end, but it would seem that somebody would have caught it in the development stages.

Just thinking out loud...mine is a Pica kit, and I absolutely love the way it flies, and it has all the strange incidences, so I don't know why the changes fron the original plans.
Old 11-15-2002, 01:57 AM
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William Robison
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Default Duellist 2/40

Hello Scalebldr, and hello ChuckAuger

Chuck, every time I see your "Vertical Mach" note at the end of your posts I am reminded of an instructor I had years ago who told me that if the VSI reading added to the ASI reading came out to zero I was in big trouble.

Every Duellist I have ever seen has had bent nacelles. Or looked like it with the approx 7 degrees of downthrust. That is one of the alterations I am considering. My #2 twin flies so nicely with everything zero-zero. On the Pica version of the Duellist the engines point down, the wing angles up, and the stab has negative incidence. Having the stab negative in relation to the wing is a very common way of getting speed stability in an airplane - too fast , nose up and slows, too slow it loses the stab downforce, dives and picks up speed, then the stab takes over again and the plane noses up. (If you're curious, this is called "Phugoid Vibration.") So. If we want a wider speed range without trim changes we remove the wing incidence, bring the stab up to neutral, and move the CG a bit to the rear to make up for the lost stab downforce. This also makes the airplane much more responsive to control inputs. Finally, the engine's extreme downthrust is to be able to fly level at higher speeds without using up all the elevator down travel just to keep from climbing because of the wing and stab incidences.
So I am tending heavily toward modification, changing everything to zero-zero. I noted in one of your posts, Scalebldr, that the old Platt kit, and his new D MkII are all zero-zero, this adds to my thinking I should make everything flat. AND, I think it just may be that Pica put all the angles in to make it easier for the low-timer to fly successfully, and maybe Massah Dave P wouldn't sign off on the changes, told Pica to take his name off it. What do you think? We should maybe ask Dave himself? I think I'll order the MkII plan and compare it with the Pica plan. See what we shall see, eh?

Have a fling! A twin's the THING!

WLR
Old 11-15-2002, 01:57 AM
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scalebldr
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Default downthrust

chuckauger,
could you tell me if the whole nacelle is set for - incidence or just the firewall.can't quite grasp the fact that 3 degrees at the firewall would make that much difference in ground clearence.i could see it if the whole nacelle was set at -3 degrees.the duellist is supposed to set with the nose pointed up or at a positive attitude.i could also see a ground clearence problem if the nose is set level or the front strut is too short to provide a nose up attitude.wonder if the pivot on different retracts caused a reduction in nose strut length?plans say rhom airs or b&d .i have an idea that other brands of retracts may have the pivot point aft of the rhom airs which would result in a shorter strut length and consequently a reduction in ground clearence.this couls also apply to the main gear also.how much dihedral are the pica plans showwing?i could see i dihedral reduction also causing a reduction in ground clearence.just trying to touch all bases before i start cutting wood.
Old 11-15-2002, 03:09 AM
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ChuckAuger
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Default Firewall..

It's just the firewall, but I think it's more than 3 degrees. I thought I remebered it being 2 degrees, but somebody corrected me and said it was 6. I glanced at the plans with a circular protractor I had to degree an engine, and it was closer to 6..the plans are made into a tabletop against a wall so I couldn't get a good reading. But yes, if you take the length of the engine plus the thickness of the mount, it might be close to an inch difference (just a WAG) at the prop.

My dihedral is per the Pica plans...

I used Rhom Airs, and made the nose gear as long as possible, even removing some wood from former aft of the gear well. Then I set the mains to be equal height to the nose.

Old 11-15-2002, 06:16 AM
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mucksmear
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Default Pica Duellist

I measured my plans and came up with 7 degrees. But after hearing the more recent posts on this. It sounds like there may be up to 3 different setups depending on which version of the Duellist you have (Original Platt, Pica, Mk2)!!

I have found mine to have nice solid handling characteristics. No tendancy to balloon out of dives - put it in a dive and it stays in a dive till it runs out of room or I "pull up". No tendancy to pitch up or down when throttle is suddenly applied either.

-E
Old 11-16-2002, 02:41 PM
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moses
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Default Pica Duellist

I'm not quite ready for a twin ... but here is a pic of my Friend's Duellist. He demonstrated it for me yesterday at the flying field.

He has been flying for many many years and builds many many kits (usually giant scale stuff). This is a small project for him (it would take me a year to build one). This Duellist has two O.S. 40FX engines and Spring Air retracts. This thing really cooks. This plane flys just beautifully.

He said he built the plane light - I think he said it came in somewhere around 10 pounds (not seven as I previously wrote - my mistake).

He also enlarged some of the control surfaces (You can see what he added to the rudder on the top and bottom). Both engines stayed running through all the flights. However, he has had at least one flight where one engine went out. He said it flys well on one engine, just a bit of rudder required (it apparently will not taxi on one engine - but it flys well).

These planes are just a blast.

Moses

edit: corrected the weight - about 10 pounds - that makes more sense - saw the plane fly again this weekend - absolutely a joy to watch.
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Old 11-16-2002, 02:42 PM
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Default Pica Duellist

Another pic
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Old 11-19-2002, 02:29 AM
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Default Duellist 2/60

Has anyone (other than me) thought about enlarging the Duellist to a 60 size? I have the M.A.N. MK 2 plans and I'm thinking through a scratch build project to accommodate two Saito 100's. I figure the W.S will be about 86" (about 25% larger than present plans) with a desired weight around 15#. I plan a f.g./polyu finish. It will have retracts (probably Spring Air quarter scale) and on-board glow.

I've flown a friend's Duellist. His has that ground clearance problem. He has the three blade props and they just barely clear. We have to carry it out to the paved runway. I'm sure a larger version will cure that problem.

I plan to start on this project sometime this winter. First, I have to finish the Texas Bobcat Twin 60. It has a 95" ws and fitted with OS108's and tri cy retracts. It's just about finished, but I'm stuck on how to get the gear door reliably sequenced with the nose gear, without spending another $300.00 to do it. I'll posts some pics in another thread if anyone is interested. Let's keep this thread Duellist pure.

I'd appreciate any though, comments, suggestions as I begin to mount this project.

Ernest

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