Where to go for twin engine design help?
I'm looking for a tutorial on twin-engine design; specifically, how does one figure out the optimum thrust angles for each engine? I don't want to get so deep into twin theory that it requires a math degree to understand. Something similar to the great piece that the late Chuck Cunningham wrote for the floatplane guys.
I've had an idea for several years now to turn a CG Senior Falcon into a taildragging twin using the nacelles, cowls, and (optional) Robart retractable landing gear from a TF DC-3 kit. I thought of simply duplicating the thrust angles of the TF kit but I don't know if they would be appropriate since the airframe would be completely different. Your thoughts are appreciated. Harvey |
Harv,
I'd be glad to help. -My buddy and I built 25 twins and I flew them all. Many were scratch. -I wrote the "Fun Aerobatics column for R/C Report magazine for 10 years. -In my 2-part column, I taught an aerobatic maneuver and wrote a feature. A couple of them were on twin-engine flying. Drop me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll send you a copy of the twin article and I'll also answer your questions. Ed Moorman |
Thanks, Ed! E-mail sent.
Harvey |
Yea, sure. Ed's big thing is "Twin, don't do them". But he does and well also........
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Hi!
Don't be so doubtful! Just go ahead and build! Engine thrust really doesn't matter ! I don't use it ,certainly on on a full scale plane that doesn't have it anyway. What matters is pilot ability and knowing to land as soon as one engine cuts out (if one does). Also ,it's very important to know you Engines so be prepared to run both engines in a single engined plane before you put them to use in a win. Last, It's very important to choose reliable engines and use a good tank set up and good tanks. |
JAKA, since you mention it, and cause I'm curious ,what about tank placement? I've been modeling and flying for about 6 years now and have an itch to try a twin design. most likely something scratch built. I have two new broken in, os 55ax engines and already plan on on board glow driver setup. the thing I'm curious about is tank placement. is it possible to feed two of these off one tank? I have three of these engines and lovem. not the easiest things to get used to, can be somewhat finnicky . but they are very torquey with the right prop and type of fuel. the engine requires good tank pressure to run right. so,with a single tank setup , with pressure from both engines mufflers ,would you suppose an auxilliary pump of some type would be necessary? thanks in advance
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Originally Posted by rcjunky67
(Post 11847372)
;;;so,with a single tank setup , with pressure from both engines mufflers ,would you suppose an auxilliary pump of some type would be necessary? thanks in advance
Even though it would add some complexity, the header tanks would then serve as "local" fuel supplies for each engine while the main tank and pump would keep the header tanks topped off. I would think that such header tanks would supply a more stable fuel delivery to each engine since long fuel lines between the fuselage-mounted main tank and carburetors would be eliminated. The added benefit would be that the engine nacelles wouldn't have to be extra large in order to fit decent-sized tanks. Harvey |
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I recommend you do not complicate things.
TWIN NOTES BY ED MOORMAN 10 years as author of Fun Aerobatics column for R/C Report magazine ([email protected]) Engines for twins notes:
Airplane notes:
Twin construction notes:
Notes on Flying Twins
Radio set-up Notes:
Twins are double the fun. You need to try one. |
Ed,
Do you own stock in the printer cartridge companies? You KNOW we're all going to print out this terrific list for our files!!! Thanks! Harvey |
Glad to have you guys copy anything you want.
I remember one of the guys at my field spending nearly 30 minutes with a tach synching up 2 OS .46AX engines. I could fly 2 planes in the time he spent tuning. I was flying my Twin Air 45 powered by 2 Magnum .52 XLS 2-stroke engines not long after the "synching" incident, when on one flight I noticed some yaw on takeoff. I also noticed more smoke coming from one engine in flight. The plane didn't fly any differently, so I forgot about it until I got home. I ran up both engines, checking them with a tach, and found one was too rich and turning nearly 1,000 rpm less than the other engine. A thousand rpm-that's a bunch, and I normally fly at full power most of the time. Flaps and I thought that this could be a project that would be fun, seeing as how "everyone" said you had to sync your engines. One thing my late flying buddy, Carl "Flaps" Laffert, and I did was build planes to test things. We talked about this and Flaps said he'd change the engines out for the test. He wasn't sure about synching either and wanted me to test it. I could also write it up in my R/C Report column. I grabbed another twin and took it and the TT engines over to Flaps' shop where he removed the OS .46AX engines. He replaced the left engine with a Thunder Tiger .46Pro, only with a Tower .46 muffler. When you could get those mufflers, they would add on the order of 800 rpm to your engine. I tested this and since they only cost $15 so I bought several. On the .46Pro we ran an 11-6 prop. The right nacelle got an old Thunder Tiger .42GP, plain bearing trainer engine. Stock muffler and a 10-6 prop. Now I don't think anyone would believe that both engines ran the same speed or pulled the same. We both felt they were a complete mismatch. At the field I cranked each engine separately, tuned it, then did the other. I topped off both tanks, restarted both engines and took off. Shoot, the Twin-Air flew just as well. I couldn't tell the difference. Later on I flew the Twin-Air at the McDonough, GA (just south of Atlanta) annual twin meet. I had flown the same plane with the matched engines the year before. No one noticed or commented on the mis-matched engines until I told them. Now, I'll admit that if you're flying a full scale recip twin and the engines aren't matched in rpm, the noise will drive you nuts. With RC planes, I don't notice it. As far as I'm concerned, if the engines are both are the same type, same age and both broken equally, you shouldn't have any problems. Ed |
Originally Posted by Ed_Moorman
(Post 11848739)
Now, I'll admit that if you're flying a full scale recip twin and the engines aren't matched in rpm, the noise will drive you nuts. With RC planes, I don't notice it. As far as I'm concerned, if the engines are both are the same type, same age and both broken equally, you shouldn't have any problems.
Ed When it comes to full-scale multi flying, out of sync engines are more than an auditory discomfort. Out of sync engines, combined with heavy prop blades, can generate strong pulses that are detrimental to bearings, airframes, and avionics. However, unsynced engines are not a big deal in our models because our props are lighter and our balsa airframes are somewhat flexible. (They absorb and dissipate the destructive harmonics.) In addition, our model engines typically turn much higher RPMs than the engines in full scale planes. What might be a thumping vibration in full scale is simply a high pitched buzz in our models. Therefore, the urge to keep our little engines in sync may very likely be a result of full-scale multiengine operating habits trickling down to our models. Harvey |
Harvey,
I did not know that out of sync was that big of a problem in full scale planes. Not having much recip time in the Air Force, I don't have any experience in that area. My twin time was what the USAF called "center line thrust." Jets were easy, and don't let anyone tell you any different. Ed |
Originally Posted by Ed_Moorman
(Post 11849638)
Harvey,
My twin time was what the USAF called "center line thrust." Ed Out-of-sync engines in full-scale planes can produce destructive harmonics that can reduce crankshaft bearing life, cause fatigue cracks in engine mounts, weaken solder joints in avionics, shorten light bulb life, etc. Of course, these problems are generally worst-case scenarios and are not common; but then again, maybe that's because full-scale multi pilots are taught to always keep our engines in sync. Harvey |
Harvey,
Here are some nice examples of what you want to do. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2018044http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2018045 Another thought go Electric on multi-engine models. The TF DC-3 has an option to use electric motors. Save the glow engines for single engine models and increase your twins life span. Good Luck |
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Dont know why pics did not show.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2018165 http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=2018166 |
Nice! Tell me more about them.
Thanks Stan. Harvey |
I was doing a search senior falcon a while ago and found these pictures. nothing else about them.
As far as twin design info, I would check out multi-engine arfs and plans built twins. Most of the arfs assembly manuals you can download in PDF format. These manuals usually have all the setup info for the model. There is a wealth of design and model setup info in these manuals. . if you like to design or mod a standard kit like the Falcon you can get a lot of ideas looking at professionally designed models and comparing their specs. |
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