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seized 1.10 FZ

Old 09-30-2007, 04:00 PM
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vtcornercarver
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Default seized 1.10 FZ

I am just wondering if anyone else has had a 110 seize? It feels like the con rod is broken. Engine has about 50 8 minute flights, running cool power performance heli (the pink stuff with 30 nitro and 22 oil). Prop is APC 16.5 X 5W. It is in a showtime 4D with a soft mount, hatori cooling flex header and hatori sport muffler. Main needle is out 1.5 turns plus two clicks. Has run flawlessly all summer, always soaks my plane in clean pink oil, tons of smoke. Lots of flying at low rpm trying to learn 3D, and some pattern practice. I have owned 6 YS engines since the mid 80s and my old 120NC has over 200 flights on it and still runs great. I am totally surprised that this engine would throw a rod with the light use it has had and the fuel run.[][][] VT.
Old 09-30-2007, 08:04 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

YS parts and Service can fix it up for you.

The typical cause of a rod failure is detonating. If you get it lean in the mid-range it can happen. Also I had one engine that I kept running out of fuel. I would flying it dry almost every flight for about 10 flights...well it let go.

Running the engine out of fuel at high RPM can be catastrophic. This is a lean run...and to have the engine humping along at 9000 rpm and then all of sudden just go full lean as it runs dry...or the little burp we sometimes get is a big air bubble that makes the engine go lean. I know we have all done it...and I'm a big offender of this cardinal rule. Don't run it out of fuel. Will it happen the first time likely not. Will it happen the 10th time who knows. Its not good for the engine.

I don't know without looking at your engine what the cause could be but its been my experience usually these types of failure are from detonation, or lean runs.


Troy Newman
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:39 AM
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vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Hi Troy, I have NEVER run this engine out of fuel in the air. I always use the timer on my JR9303 and there is usually at least 1/3 of a tank left when I refuel. I do however pump out the leftover fuel in the tank at the end of the day, and run the unburned fuel out of my engine at LOW rpm's. This engine has never had one lean run, and never run out of fuel. When it quit in the air on me, I thought maybe it ran dry because I had been doing slow flying at just a few clicks above idle, and let it go past the 8 minute timer, but upon dead stick landing and hand pumping the remaing fuel out of the tank to see how much was left, it took me 20 turns on my pump which is about 1/3 of a full tank (60 or so turns to fill an empty tank). Soooooooooo this is a mystery to me. I don't think you can coat your stab and elevators and the whole belly of the airplane with clean pink oil and make so much smoke that it looks like a sky writer on a blue sky day, and be running lean. That cool power heli performance fuel makes so much power that you don't need to run anywhere lean to make power. I will be interested to see what the guys say when they take it apart. I shipped it today, post office said 2 to 3 days to Nevada from Vermont.[sm=72_72.gif]
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Old 10-01-2007, 12:46 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

I understand what you are saying but rod failures are usually a sign of running lean. They are not always the case.

The smoke trail is not a sign of being rich. The Cool Power 30% heli has the low vis oil. Actually when the engine gets way lean it will smoke even more like a chimney. The reason is its too hot and the oil is burning off. So you can't regulate your mixture setting by the smoke trail. Clear Clean oil is a good thing out the exhaust. This is a good sign of being rich.

It could be something else for sure. I just know that in my lifetime I have gotten the engine lean in the midrange and blown a couple up myself. It can happen. Sometimes if you don't warm them up well...and let the engine build up pressure before gunning it to full power it will go lean for a a few seconds. It can happen. A buddy of mine did this to a 140DZ last week. He started it up and never let it warm up...then gunned it pulled vertical. He busted the crank. It wasn't the engines fault it was the fact that he started it up cold, then gunned it to full power and pulled vertical putting the engine under max load right now.

I trust you that you have not run it lean, however I know that Everybody that has ever had an engine problem in this forum says "I never ran it lean...its always set rich" well I don't know I never saw your engine run. So I can't say. I just know that rod failures are usually from detonation problems.

Its not an attack on your modeling skills. Because I think from the looks of your model that you are above the average bear in terms of modeling skill. Its rare to find nice clean neat installation like in your photos.

Richard will be able to tell whats up when gets inside. Heck it could be a defective part I just don't know this is the INTERNET afterall. I can't tell how any engine is really running or has been run via the INTERNET.

I'm sure you have heard the sound of the detonation or hammering on one these engines. That detonation sound is the cause of most failure in the engines. Not all of them just most of them. Many guys I see running their engines just think its the sound the engine makes but reality is its hard on parts.

Troy Newman
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:48 PM
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vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

I hear everything you are saying Troy and you are right about a lot of pilots a lot of the time, but I am very anal about my engines. I use a ground stake retainer to hold my airplane back, and I start it after hand priming with the throttle fully open and no glow battery. When I see a couple of drops of fuel leak out (it is mounted inverted), I go to idle then come back a few clicks , then I add glow battery and hit it with my starter. I ALWAYS warm it up on the ground at 1/3 throttle to build pressure and warm everything, then gradually accelerate while still retained by the ground stake retainer. This is my routine every time. Then I release it from the stooge and start my timer and fly. This I never vary. I spoke with Richie today and explained everything to him, so he should have it by Wednesday. I will be very keen to hear the results of the tear down. If you are interested I will give you feedback. Pete
Old 10-01-2007, 05:46 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Sounds great, from your procedure you are doing things right to protect the engine. So let us know whats up with it.

Hey failures can happen with any engine. Its a mechanical part, and these engines are high performance machines. Hell look at what happens in NASCAR, millions of $$$ on the line to make it in the chase and the No 8 ends up with how many blown up engines this year?

And you can bet those things are hand spec'd and blue printed to every single part. YS engines are high performance.

Troy Newman
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Old 10-13-2007, 07:24 AM
  #7  
vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Hi Troy, I said I would reply when Richie got the engine opened up. I just spoke to him yesterday. there is no indication of me misusing the engine. It wasn't burned from running lean, and he said the prop and fuel I was running were all fine. What happened is the rear bearing disintegrated, the cage for the ball bearings just blew apart and trashed the piston. He said it would have been worse if I had tried more than once to start it, but as soon as I hit it one time with the starter I immediately heard a metal noise and stopped. I had ordered the motor from Central hobbies on 9/17/06, I figure it took at least several days to arrive here and a few more before I had the opportunity to get it on the test stand and break it in. More than likely didn't get it onto the new soft mount and in the air until at least 10/01/06. It gets cold real fast here in Vermont and I literally had 5 flights on the airplane and motor before it went into the house for the winter. When the motor seized, it was 9/29/07. I packed it and sent it on monday to YS Performance and it was received on 10/03/07. I was surprised when I called Richie to see if the motor was either fixed or basket cased and what was going to happen, when he told me the motor wasn't waranteed because it was past the one year period. I sure don't see it being past warantee, it was certainly close, but it only had 60 runs tops on it. I live far from the field where I fly and only get out maybe 3 days a month for 5 or 6 flights. Richie DID FIX IT FREE, and I appreciate that, but I just was surprised to have him tell me that it was out of warantee. I don't get that from the subaru dealer where I bought my new turbo wagon three years ago and a few things needed fixing 600 miles over the 36,000 mile warantee period. the service manager said "don't worry about, we'll take care of you". Anyway, for a motor to have a rear bearing completely fail after only 60 flights is certainly odd and he said unusual. When I started flying pattern in the early 90s we all were using the YS .61 long stroke. I flew my LA1 using that motor and the rear bearing had to be replaced about every 50 to 75 flights, and used to get a little noisy, I changed probably 3 rear bearings before building my first Meridian and moving up to my YS 1.20. That 61 rear bearing took a real pounding and never failed, just wore out. This 1.10 is by far the best running YS motor I have owned or run both for ease of start, ease of adjusting, insane low idle, and amazing power,but I am really dissapointed about a bearing failure after 60 flights. I am now considering selling this motor and swithing to a different brand. This experience has left a bad taste in my mouth and I am thinking about going to a Saito. I know that is what Mike McConville had in mind when he designed the Showtime and everyone at my club uses the Saito. They are all intimidated by the YS engines and prefer the Saito. I am curious to hear your feelings on this matter. Feel free to reply privately if you don't want to post to this forrum. [email protected] Vtcornercarver [size=2]
Old 10-13-2007, 11:20 AM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

A bearing can fail on any engine. Its rare for it to happen in a short number of flights. If you fly on grass or dirt fields then I would say 150-200 flights is the max number you want to go before replacing the rear bearing.

As for Warranty issues, That is the done by YS Parts and Service and Richard is the owner. He did fix your engine for you basically under Warranty even though technically the warranty had expired. I understand your concern, however he does quite often like he did to help you. He works very hard to keep customers happy, and satisfied with the engines.

My personal experience and from the feedback I receive is that he does go the extra mile to help folks out with their problems. Discounted repairs, and sometimes a trade in type of deal on a new engine to replace a old one that can't be repaired or will cost way too much.

As far as Saito is concerned it is a quality product as well. Horizon Hobby also has some of the best service in the business. As for power to weight and performance, the YS 110 has it all over the Saito 125. The Saito is an excellent engine no doubt. But the YS engine has many features that give it better performance. I view them as engines for different applications. If power and performance is the goal then the YS wins. You would never put the Honda Indy car engine in your Civic. Its just two different applications. There is not one better than the other. They are both good engines.


Troy Newman
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:58 PM
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vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Hey Troy, I'm not so sure that "technically" my engine was out of warantee. Does the warantee start when you order the engine? Or when it is in your hands. When does it end, the day it breaks or the day it is sent into YS? For me to be told "I don't usually repair engines out of warantee" when the warantee period is precariously into the grey area, isn't it better for a long time YS customer with 6 different engines under his belt to be given the benefit of the doubt and maybe say "don't worry about, we will take care of it for you". I can tell you I was a little taken back by the comments and made to feel like I was lucky to be getting my barely used engine repaired. Not exactly the feeling you want to leave with. This hobby is suposed to be fun, and nobody should make you feel like they are doing you a favor by fixing something that shouldn't have broken in the first place.
Old 10-13-2007, 02:41 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

I understand your thoughts and as I said before I'm not YS Parts and Service, you should voice your concerns to Richard directly. He is the owner of the company and the one that handles the warranty work in the USA.

I don't know what you want me to say about it?

Your engine was repaired at N/C this is often the case with guys that have problems and are in the "gray" area of the warranty. The discretion used by Richard and employees is something that I am not involved in.

I have no knowledge or experience with how they manage the terms of the warranty. In fact I have never read the warranty documentation. My knowledge of the level of service provided is based on my experience with non-warranty service, and also the feedback I receive from folks like you. The information I gain I pass along to Richard and crew.

Thanks for your thoughts I will pass them along.

Troy Newman
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Old 10-13-2007, 08:37 PM
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Yep,seen it in a couple of engines - the rear bearings breaking up and literally chewing up the innards. And one is a low time engine.I've gone ceramics for all my 110s for peace of mind. Can't afford the repair costs and the doubts everytime I fire up. They've got a quality issue here as its always the cage breaking up where its riveted. YS won't admit it as it'll cost a bomb to replace all the engines.If you run high nitro- you have to have quality bearings. Hopefully my 110S will be spared that pain.
Old 10-13-2007, 09:57 PM
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vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Yeah, this has got to be a problem unique to the 1.10. I never heard of the old 1.20 engines having a bearing cage self destruct like this. We used to wear the engines out, but not have them internally fail. I'm not so sure now that I want to keep this engine if it is going to keep happening. I'm gonna have to give this some thought as flying season is rapidly ending here. where did you get the ceramic bearings, from boca? I've done plenty of replacements in 2 stroke engines, but none in a 4 stroke. I've always sent my engines in to YS, used to be Rick Mattie and he always bent over backwards to keep the pattern fliers loyal to YS. Of course unreasonable abuse was never covered, but component failure should always be a warantee issue in my opinion. Thanks for the info.
Old 10-13-2007, 11:31 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Its not a problem....Any bearing can fail. By the way the same bearing manufacturer that produces the bearing for YS does it for OS. They are the same bearings from the same manufacturer. Yamada doesn't produce bearings. The buy them already made like any other engine manufacturer. And with all mechanical parts

Any bearing can fail. Just becasue one has failed in this case doesn't mean that it is an on going issue.

DO Not use the Phenolic bearings. The Cage can't handle the heat. The phenolic cage will come apart. Seen it happen on a repeated basis in both YS engines and the OS 2 stroke pattern engines.

togatoga, you should deal with with Yamada Japan regarding your issues with 110 Quality control. This is not the place for those discussions. This is a forum to help folks with their motors. It is not the place for your opinions about what YS Japan does or doesn't do correctly.

You can take opinions to the general engine forum

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_463/tt.htm

Please refer to the rules of this forum they are posted on a sticky at the top of the thread list. Thanks for your input.

Troy Newman
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:02 AM
  #14  
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

YS and many other engine makers use the cheapest bearings they can buy, crimped or riveted retainer type. Neither type is the best for model engine use. Plastic (aramid) retainer bearings would be superior, but then they might be 50 cents more per engine. Some manufacturers have started using the more expensive bearings as a way to avoid bearing problems which damage other internal engine parts when they fail.

In engines as expensive as YS, you would think they might use a better quality bearing.
Old 10-14-2007, 06:42 PM
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

flyer69

You are WAY out of line.

You have no idea what YS or (from the sound of things) what ANY mfgr. of any product does or does not do at any time.

I have Zero idea what YS Japan does (same as you) !

BUT I've been in the mfg. business for a lifetime and I have NEVER seen a Mfgr. risk everything else involved for a few bucks or cents on a part----that includes the industry leaders and the last on the list.

I don't think you are knowledgeable enough to comment on any Mfg. process much less YS's.

This is a help forum not a spout off forum------take your acid comments somewhere else------perhaps that site's users will believe you.

Sorry for the rant Troy.



Old 10-14-2007, 11:01 PM
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

My apologies Troy.Thought my feedback would set YS to looking at the cause of the failures and I just don't want others to to have an expensive repair on their hands.Maybe regular servicing is a good thing to do.I bought 4 of my 110 from the US and this being the YS forum and such, should have read the rules!. Anyways, I know its a thankless service you're giving and doing a great job at it ,so again my apologies.
Old 10-15-2007, 12:02 PM
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

I totally agree, and do thank Troy and all the other factory representatives that answer forum messages here on RCU. I really started this thread to see if other fliers had rear bearing failures as I did with a low hour engine. I love YS power and have had really great experiences since the early 90s with their products. I guess I will just run this engine in my airplane when it gets back to me from Nevada and hope it gives me good service. Thanks again Troy.................VT
Old 10-29-2007, 11:46 AM
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vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Hi Troy, just a followup on my 1.10FZ. I got it back from YS Performance with a new piston and rear bearing. I adjusted the valves (one was a tad tight) and ran two tanks of Cool Power perf. heli pink, on the ground. It ran around 9000 rpm at two full turns out on the hs needle with an apc 16.5X5W prop. I actually opened the needle a little more than 2 turns to get it down below 9000. I let it idle below 2000 for 30 seconds and slowly ran up the throttle and it transitioned perfectly even at this rich high speed mixture. After two tanks on the ground I will try to fly next weekend if the weather permits. It is getting cold and windy here in VT. Anyway, runs like a bear and sweet as a *****cat. Keep up the good work, VT
Old 10-30-2007, 10:32 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

Is it pink or Bright orange? The pink stuff is Omega and has Castor oil in it. The bright orange is the Performance heli oil versions. I don't know a bunch about the Omega fuel made by Morgan becasue it has Castor and I won't use it.

Glad its working great for you.

Troy
Old 10-31-2007, 03:31 PM
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vtcornercarver
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

It's the orange "performance heli" fuel from cool power, the good stuff with 22% synthetic oil and 30%NITRO. I love this fuel and the way it makes the 1.10 run. When I first bought the engine and asked the forum what the best fuel was, this was the overwhelming choice. VT[8D]
Old 10-31-2007, 05:39 PM
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Troy Newman
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Default RE: seized 1.10 FZ

It is pretty awesome stuff. I'll pass along the good word to Fred, he runs Morgan Fuels. They produce some really good products not just for R/C.

Troy

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